Home » Tuck Talk » Future Tuck » Facing up to Debbie... when?
Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1482] Fri, 12 December 2003 20:32 Go to next message
Chucko  is currently offline Chucko
Messages: 11
Registered: December 2003
Location: Silicon Valley, CA, USA
Junior Member
The thing I kept wondering when I read the stories for the first time was, when is Tuck going to face up to Debbie and start dealing with the numerous issues between them? I'm surprised to find this isn't already a topic here.
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1483] Fri, 12 December 2003 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike the Younger  is currently offline Mike the Younger
Messages: 73
Registered: July 2003
Location: Winterpeg
Member
All hail and well met, Chucko. I think Tucker first has to realize Debbie might possibly have something to say to her.
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1484] Fri, 12 December 2003 23:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
Messages: 589
Registered: September 2003
Senior Member
Welcome! I would guess the subject hasn't been discussed much because there isn't really much to say. By the time this forum started, Tuck had been avoiding Debbie for quite a long time in the story, and it seemed clear that they wouldn't willingly talk or deal with one another anytime soon. I don't see Tuck being the one instigating the discussion, and it's hard to predict what outside element might force the subejct to come up. With all that said, Debbie has been popping up fairly regularly the past several episodes; so a more meaningful encounter soon wouldn't suprise me, either.
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1486] Sat, 13 December 2003 07:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
Messages: 334
Registered: September 2002
Location: Everett, WA
Senior Member

ok people, reality check. i wouldn't call myself an expert on how most of the world does things, but i've pieced together that when couples break up, they rarely talk to eachother again. espetialy when they have very little incommon with eachother. and the fact that they broke up with eachother in a VERY nasty, and VERY public way just makes it all the worse.

if a girl's boyfreind had done to one of your RL freinds, what deb had done to tuck, none of you would EVER consider getting them back together. espetialy with the way she had been treating tuck when they were together. tuck was desperat to be loved, and being with deb made him feel more like a man. (i think i remmeber him saying something like that, even when he was in a dress or had deb moaning "Val" at him.) also, i think tuck expects deb to act like his mother and sister, and a bit like ba boyz... even though we don't really have that much evidence that she's that dangerous. i mean, she did some nasty things to a couple guys, but i didn't get the impression that they were NEARLY as dangerous as tuck and his family. i mean, they all freak out when tuck pulls any of his comando stuff. i don't think Deb and the pack have ever considered how much could possibly go wronge with one of thier stunts. while da boyz are so ever prepared they scare people.

getting back to the point...

deb broke up with tuck in a REALLY bad way. tuck can't forgive deb for that, and if that was one of your freinds, you'd try a little just to make sure nothing TOO bad happens, but then when niegther side can get past it, LEAVE THEM ALONE!! they are NOT goign to get back together. deb REALLY HURT tuck. there's no reason for them to get back together. tuck can't trust her ever again. that's very common, atleast tuck doesn't feel like he can't trust ANY woman ever again.
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1487] Sat, 13 December 2003 12:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chucko  is currently offline Chucko
Messages: 11
Registered: December 2003
Location: Silicon Valley, CA, USA
Junior Member
Good points, Doragoon, especially about bad breakups. Been there, done that, eventually recovered a friendship, but it took a couple years. (Sigh.)

But I wasn't talking about getting back together as lovers, just dealing with each other constructively as not-enemies. Anyway, here's my speculation:

Debbie is still part of the Pack. The Pack has heard both sides of the story and is at least sympathetic to Tuck's side. Debbie has admitted to at least one member of the Pack (Kim?) that she screwed up on the birth control pills. I would think there's some peer pressure from the Pack to at least be civil to Tuck.

The rescue scene in the mall makes it clear that Tuck still has some strong feelings towards Debbie below the conscious level.

Debbie is still Val's boss, and the babysitting money from the Parkers flows through her. Kim can't serve as a go-between forever.

They can't seem to avoid each other, and there is frequently some interaction to deal with an emergency of some sort.

It must be clear to all who have heard the medical reports that Tuck is physically more female than male. Surely Debbie can't blame Tuck for turning "gay" if she thinks about it.

If (when?) Tuck decides to transition permanently to Val, I suspect she'll show some gratitude to Debbie for initiating the process.

In the meantime, I think we're in for more fireworks for a while.
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1488] Sat, 13 December 2003 14:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maynard  is currently offline Maynard
Messages: 80
Registered: September 2002
Location: WI
Member
Welcome to the discussion Chucko.

There is one immediate thing that connects Tuck and Debbie and that is the most recent pay check. Debbie was going to deliver it when she went to the house. Perhaps she will just give it to Kim. But it there is a slight possibility that Tuck and Deb would have to interact.

Granted that it is just my own wish, but if [and it is a big "if"] Tuck calms down [is that possible?] he will realize that Deb has been more inclined to be on his side. In the club, Deb was warning Val, not threatening. Deb was standing up for him before his mother. I wish there was some way that Tuck/Val would get just a tiny crack into her wound-up brain that Deb is not really the threat.
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1489] Sat, 13 December 2003 14:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Upinmyhead  is currently offline Upinmyhead
Messages: 15
Registered: September 2002
Junior Member
Maynard wrote on Sun, 14 December 2003 03:07

I wish there was some way that Tuck/Val would get just a tiny crack into her wound-up brain that Deb is not really the threat.


Well, not THE threat, but A threat.

I have no doubt that Tuck feels very strongly that he was treated very unfairly by Debbie, particularly in their last interaction before the breakup.

It is indeed possible that Debbie could threaten Tuck's health and/or life. Admittedly, it'd probably be detrimental to her as well (Mike would not look past some sort of revenge), but all she'd have to do is let a few people at school know, and Tuck would probably be lunchmeat. Maybe this is unlikely, possibly improbable. But hell, after her outburst when they broke up? God, I'd be afraid to be in the same room with the girl. Smile

And the thing is, Tuck doesn't put that past her. Even after the recent string of things between them (Tuck 'saving' Debbie in the mall, Debbie getting into a matchup with Tuck's mom)... there's still that once bitten, twice shy thing.

I personally can't imagine what it would be like to find my GF had just walked out on me in a strange city, especially after such a moodswing as I'd seen it like that. Given Tuck's somewhat brittle grip on reality at times, I can see why he'd Really Dislike Debbie for that, for a long, long time. It's not unreasonable.

I used to be all for a reconciliation between them, but it's less appealing to me now. Reading back over their relationship, I don't like the vibe I get from it. Debbie is a bit manipulative, even in the moments of the story when Tuck seems damn happy. I don't know, really. For some reason I get this vibe that Tuck's deluding himself with Travis at times. It's too... fairytale, I guess would be the way to describe it. I like this new shakeup; hopefully it makes Tuck realise that you can't just escape from your life, which I think he seriously needed, especially with Travis.

But I would like to see them have a Talk. There are unresolved issues that Tuck should deal with, along with everything else.
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1494] Sat, 13 December 2003 19:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike the Younger  is currently offline Mike the Younger
Messages: 73
Registered: July 2003
Location: Winterpeg
Member
That their previous intimate relationship is over has been self evident since Valerie returned from Califonia suffering a great deal of personal stress (the kind of stress resulting from the brain's desparate struggle to overpower the body's burning desire to bury an axe in another person's skull). However, they should start talking to each other prior to graduation because they...

...live in a small town
...have mutual freinds and aquaintences
...are in a commercial relationship

They need some form of closure in order to heal properly. This will occur after Valerie realizes she and Debbie have to do something constructive with their respective axes. Weather this actually happens in the Saga or not is up to Ellen and the characters she has created. In real life, most people let wounds of this sort scab over, leaving scars. Ms Hayes has proven time and again she has a very solid understanding of how people deal with painful situations.
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1495] Sun, 14 December 2003 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
Messages: 589
Registered: September 2003
Senior Member
Upinmyhead wrote on Sat, 13 December 2003 11:35


I used to be all for a reconciliation between them, but it's less appealing to me now. Reading back over their relationship, I don't like the vibe I get from it.

Can I second that? When I first read the story, I thought for quite a while that Tuck & Deb getting back together was almost a given, until the story had clearly gone in other directions. (I was perhaps misled because I had read Tuck Season first- not the recomended order.) When I first re-read the story, Debbie seemed genuinely creepy a lot of the time. Even after a couple more re-readings, I still don't have a solid grasp of her character. How I react depends on what else I most recently read or re-read- Tuck Season, Tuck^2, or how much of the main storyline I had seen to that point. I am sure Tuck has better reasons for avoiding Deb than most of the other characters are willing to admit, though. (Not that the reasons for them to talk aren't good, as well; but Tuck has more good reasons on the against side than most people will admit.)
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1496] Sun, 14 December 2003 20:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
Messages: 290
Registered: November 2002
Location: Bristol, UK
Senior Member
OtherEric wrote on Mon, 15 December 2003 00:21

Upinmyhead wrote on Sat, 13 December 2003 11:35

I used to be all for a reconciliation between them, but it's less appealing to me now. Reading back over their relationship, I don't like the vibe I get from it.

Even after a couple more re-readings, I still don't have a solid grasp of her character. How I react depends on what else I most recently read or re-read- Tuck Season, Tuck^2, or how much of the main storyline I had seen to that point.


Hm, I don't think they're contradictory. In Tuck^2 Valerie accepts and agrees with what Tuck says about that, and actually says that she thinks it worked out for her because, in her words, she had learnt to say no to Debbie. There's a clear (I hope) implication that her time at Jane's gave her the required level of self-assurance and assertiveness (which also helped her with other matters of course). There's also a lot of untold backstory hinted at there, about how their relationship got renegotiated; not least how Lisa fits into it all, if she does. Let's just say I doubt it was an easy or smooth process!

I actually wrote Debbie's part in that story with a reference to a specific mental illness I had experienced second-hand. When I told Ellen of this she said Debbie was nowhere near that screwed up, but I left it in anyway. For me, it just seemed to fit too well...

Be that as it may, the seed for Valerie handling Debbie so much more confidently, and strongly, was actually there near the end of Tucky Season, when Valerie takes charge, and Debbie loves it. I'm not sure, it might have been in one of the perpetually "unready" episodes.

Quote:

I am sure Tuck has better reasons for avoiding Deb than most of the other characters are willing to admit, though. (Not that the reasons for them to talk aren't good, as well; but Tuck has more good reasons on the against side than most people will admit.)


I agree I can't see them getting back together. I like to think they might one day learn to at least be civil to each other again, and perhaps even recover a friendship. We've not seen enough of Debbie in recent times to know her feelings on the matter, but in any case, it would have to wait for Tuck to, frankly, grow up a bit and learn to regard people in less black-and-white terms.

Not holding my breath.


Rachel
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1498] Tue, 16 December 2003 21:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maynard  is currently offline Maynard
Messages: 80
Registered: September 2002
Location: WI
Member
In my previous post, I was not saying that I want Tuck and Deb to get back together. I really see no hope for that and I probably do not want it to happen. Rather, as Rachel said, I would like to see them be civil to each and maybe to sit at lunch in school with the pack as they did last year. But I suspect that is asking too much.

As to the topic at hand, "Facing up to Debbie... when?", I still feel that it might happen in one of the next few chapters. But probably not in a very satisfactory way, and that would be from my sense of Tuck.

Can Tuck find any happiness with Jill?

[Updated on: Tue, 16 December 2003 21:28]

Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1499] Wed, 17 December 2003 02:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chucko  is currently offline Chucko
Messages: 11
Registered: December 2003
Location: Silicon Valley, CA, USA
Junior Member
Maynard wrote on Tue, 16 December 2003 18:23

As to the topic at hand, "Facing up to Debbie... when?", I still feel that it might happen in one of the next few chapters. But probably not in a very satisfactory way, and that would be from my sense of Tuck.


I don't think Tuck's in any state right now to be settling anything with Debbie! But to quote someone much wiser than I, "The future comes too soon, and in the wrong order."

Quote:

Can Tuck find any happiness with Jill?


Hmmm. There's an interesting dynamic between Val and Jill. I hadn't read any romantic attraction into it, but maybe I should take a second look.

And Val's physical and sexual attraction to Travis makes me wonder if Tuck can ever really find "happiness" with a girl. It's not clear to me yet whether Tuck is wired that way. I bet Ellen is saving that little plot twist for later. Twisted Evil
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1974] Mon, 14 June 2004 05:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
Three or four chapters later...

From a plotting standpoint, Ellen presumably set up Travis' estrangement from Val to provide an opportunity to move Debbie back into the center of the picture here.

So we now know that Debbie's residual feelings for Tuck/Val at least match Tuck's feelings for her, since each will come to the other's rescue if necessary.

That may be enough to create an uneasy truce between the two, sufficient to sit at the same lunch table or possibly even attend the same sleepover.

Where we go from there, though, probably isn't far, given the fact that each has perfectly good emotional reasons not to trust the other. Tuck, at least, has rational fears as well; I don't believe he could ever convince himself that Debbie's harmless, since she isn't. (Tuck's not harmless either, of course, but I doubt that Debbie feels much concern over it.)

Nor does the current situation, with Debbie asserting control over Tuck under life-threatening circumstances, offer much encouragement that Tuck will be able to stand up to Debbie better once he recovers. Debbie seems to hold all the cards here -- or at least, Tuck, for all his skill at poker, won't be able to give up his certainty that Debbie's betting from strength and he's not.

The best opportunity to change the situation would be for Debbie to face a major threat of her own that she can't handle without Tuck. (I can think of a few possibilities, but they're real stretches. Maybe whatever Travis had on Lisa comes to a head, and Debbie needs Valerie to intercede with him. Most of my other scenarios involve Tuck doing something to cause the problem in the first place, and under those circumstances I'm not sure even Mike could convince Tuck that Debbie wouldn't discover his culpability and kill or maim him after he took care of fixing it.)

On the positive side, Tuck/Val and Debbie may discover that working together they can plot more satisfying revenge on Tuck's attackers than Tuck could accomplish working only with the Boyz and the rest of the Pack, and their sheer enjoyment in doing so may forge a new relationship. Still, even under those circumstances, where Tuck's the one at risk, I can't see Tuck really taking control over the situation, or standing up to Debbie for any serious length of time.

Eric
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1975] Mon, 14 June 2004 05:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
Maynard wrote on Tue, 16 December 2003 18:23

Can Tuck find any happiness with Jill?


I wondered the same thing, sort of. In that parallel-world fanfic I gave up on months ago, Tuck-5 (Eugene), having had the same breakup with Debbie that "our" Tuck did, subsequently lost Travis when Valerie got outed at the Parkers' party, and had then gotten into a somewhat desultory pairing with Jill when school started.

But one thing that Erin pointed out on the board here when I guessed that Tuck/Val would end up in an ongoing relationship with Kelly by the time school started next year, was that Debbie and Travis had been around since the first episode, and it'd be more satisfactory from a writer's (and reader's) standpoint if one or the other turned out to be the answer rather than a character introduced later.

(Of course, it doesn't have to happen that way. Anyone else remember that Keith Laumer short story where about 200 words before the end he establishes the winning side's leader, the Ivroy, as a beautiful and unattached woman, so that the hero can kiss her and live happily ever after in the final paragraph?)

Eric
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1979] Tue, 15 June 2004 19:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
Messages: 334
Registered: September 2002
Location: Everett, WA
Senior Member

Quote:

From a plotting standpoint, Ellen presumably set up Travis' estrangement from Val to provide an opportunity to move Debbie back into the center of the picture here.


dude.... DUDE!! do you really think travis is that cold and heartless as to break up with a girl who he's been dating off and on for almost a year, and seriously for 15 weeks. And he's been sleeping with her for much of that time. I didn't get the impresstion that travis was a love em and leave them type... travis was probably a virgin before val. He's going to have a REALLY strong emotional attatchment. and he won't give up val without a fight.

any why does everyone want to see tuck get back with debbie? when was he ever treated well by her. when was he ever really happy with her... not just sexualy gratified and that the social pressure for him to date was off of him. Tuck himself has admited that he likes travis better than deb. there are all the scenes of tuck playing with travis's chest hair and stuff... how much did he enjoy deb's secondary sex characteristics?

on deb's side of things, why would she want tuck back? she's got a longterm and meaningfull relationship with Jill. she didn't even really want a serios relationsip with tuck in the first place... remember how surprised jill was that deb actualy cared for him. deb is also a really fragile person. she never really recovered from the rape. she has a really hard time trusting men, and has to keep them at arm's length. she let tuck get close to her, and he hurt her, abandoned her while a man tried to assault her. even if that isn't the rational explaination. even just being near tuck might make her nervous, bringing back memories of the rape and the second attack. she could work through it if the tried... remember how messed up kim had been with mike. dressing tuck up was probably her way of getting around rape trauma. it's gong to be harder to get around that now, not easier.

maybe things would be easier if we knew why she dated Rob. it could have been an aranged thing. or it cuold have been her setting herself up to fail. or she could have been positioning him for a really big hit from the pack. i don't think we can know for sure.

and from a literary point of veiw, when has ellen EVER taken the easy way into a plot line. the reason we love this story is becouse she doesn't make excuses, doesn't have convienient plot devices show up to further the story. atleast not overtly.

why do so many fans want tuck to get back with deb? go back and read it again, the first time around was NOT a healthy relationship for tuck. yet so many people think tuck should get back into it... and they don't like the idea of travis and tuck... some admit that they are creeped out by the gay sex think, does that explain all of you? do want travis out of the picture becouse you tanspose your own personality onto tuck's and you don't want to think of yourself enjoying sex with a man. i guess i'm too bi to understand that. but how about everyone try putting themselves in tuck and travis's shoes... try enjoying the erotic scenes... tuck is happy with a sexual relationship with travis, why can't you be?
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1981] Tue, 15 June 2004 23:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
Messages: 589
Registered: September 2003
Senior Member
Doragoon wrote on Tue, 15 June 2004 16:27

do you really think travis is that cold and heartless as to break up with a girl who he's been dating off and on for almost a year, and seriously for 15 weeks.

Agreed. Travis might have broken things off through messages from Mike, but since he said he would contact Val in a few days he will back her all the way while she is hurt. Espically considering his reaction to how Shelia (3rd in the series! Collect them all! Very Happy) treated Bobby in the hospital. Things might not work out, but Travis will try as hard as possible to make things work for at least a while.
Doragoon wrote on Tue, 15 June 2004 16:27

any why does everyone want to see tuck get back with debbie?

I don't. I would like to see things becoming a bit less hostile between the two of them, but I don't see Humpty Dumpty ever getting put back together again. (And I don't see anything in Eric's post that shows he sees them getting back together, either.)
Eric wrote on Mon, 14 June 2004 02:18

So we now know that Debbie's residual feelings for Tuck/Val at least match Tuck's feelings for her, since each will come to the other's rescue if necessary.

Not necessarly. Debbie is returning a favor, while Tuck's rescue scene came at a time when Debbie's only recent contact with Tuck had been hostile. We've seen Debbie has a strong sense of what she owes people.
I can also see Debbie, unlike Tuck, wishing they were still in a relationship. If she was being honest with herself, she would realize the bulk of the blame for the break-up falls on her. And she had a truly dramatic example of the sort of person her Ex was compared to her current romantic interest.
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1984] Wed, 16 June 2004 13:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
Messages: 440
Registered: October 2003
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Senior Member
On why I think the Travis relationship is not going to last...

Frankly, I don't like Travis that much. He's not that interesting a character. He's nice, but quite bland in his all-around-nice-guy-and-boy-scout-ness. He's what Charlie Brown might become as a teenager (replacing baseball with basketball), only Charlie Brown is endearing in his loser-ness. OK, maybe blandness is what Tu/Val needed after the tempestuous relationship with Debbie, but as the time goes on it loses some of its appeal.

Also, Travis refuses to face up to Tu/Val's duality. He is dating Val the cute, feminine babysitter and genius cook. He has nothing in common with Tu/Val the accomplished hacker, and would have nothing to do with Tuck the paramilitary black-ops geek. Val has been carefully keeping the Tuck side of her apart of Travis, because she knows it wouldn't work.

In a way, the situation with Travis is as bad as with the parentals. Tuck's parents (especially his mother) clearly lean on the side of "fixing" Tuck with testosterone and surgery, and getting rid of Val -- although they might loosen up in time. Travis, if asked, would tell Val to go all the way so he wouldn't have to keep lying to himself. And Tu/Val is caught in the middle...

Debbie, on the other hand, has accepted Tuck as he is. She likes the heterosexual sex, she likes his geekiness and his devious mind, and she also likes his feminine appearance -- but not to the point of disregarding his health (her first reaction on seeing his budding breasts was to tell him to see a doctor, for instance). No, their relationship wasn't healthy; but on the other hand, it wasn't based on self-deception.


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1985] Wed, 16 June 2004 17:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
Messages: 197
Registered: May 2004
Senior Member
Sir Lee wrote on Wed, 16 June 2004 10:47


Debbie, on the other hand, has accepted Tuck as he is. ...... No, their relationship wasn't healthy; but on the other hand, it wasn't based on self-deception.




However, the line of mistrust has crossed between them. They know it. Both Tuck and Debbie, as well as some members of the Pack are looking for the security of trust in someone or something due to terrible personal experiences. Their initial relationship fell apart because both instinctively reacted at the hotel based upon their individual pasts and both felt betrayed, intentional or not. Their instincts are who they are and will never change.
I do agree that the relationship with Travis is doomed because Travis does not know the personality of Tuck in Val....and as Tuck told his father, his life as Val and Tuck are one person, not two.
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1989] Wed, 16 June 2004 23:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
Messages: 334
Registered: September 2002
Location: Everett, WA
Senior Member

Quote:

Debbie, on the other hand, has accepted Tuck as he is. ...... No, their relationship wasn't healthy; but on the other hand, it wasn't based on self-deception.


lets see, deb, dressed tuck up like a girl and wouldn't have sex with him otherwise. she thought tuck was the weak little nothing and that's why she trusted him. thats why it blew her away when he jumped down the stairs and saved her in the mall. thats why she freaked out when tuck hit her. she didn't want a strong and confident man... she wanted a submissive little nothing...

travis on the other hand didn't know about tuck's double life.. he's upset for having it hidden from him... i don't think that alone is enough for him to repudiate tuck... he stayed with tuck when he talked with jill, if he continues to be the lovign and compationate person he's been so far, he'll get over it. as far as travis not knowing who tuck is and stuff... he's said on many occations that the things that he likes about val is the geekness. how she just doesn't care about apearances. like whe tuck responded "i'm not that advanced" or whatever it was. he likes that he has somone to talk to about books, and he likes it when she geeks out with computers and electronics and the radio and survivalist stuff, even if they dont' agree, they can still talk about it. she doesn't make fun of him for the boyscout stuf, or about the being shy around women or the books he reads. i think he needs val as much as val needs him, maybe more. he talkes to her about things that he can't even talk to book about. travis is a sweety. as so many peopel have said, "he's a peach". thier relationship isnt' perfect, but then, who's is? how many people fall in love and never have an issue come between them or get into a fight or have an argument or anything. this isn't a fairy tail if you havn't already gotten the hint from tuck getting massivly assaulted and almost dieing.

if you want a little more excitement from travis, i'm sure we could find out more things about him. like, we havn't found out why everyone was so surprized at him having a date, or why he's freinds with bobby. i'm sure he and bobby have gotten into trouble in the past, ellen/tuck just hasn't chosen to share those with us if travis has shared them. or maybe travis will go nuts. we know he hates rape and stuff, i could see him going nuts that his girfreind was beaten up... maybe doing something stupid... maybe getting himself blacklisted. there's a lot of ways to make travis a more interesting character. maybe we should start a thread about that.
A new romance? [message #1991] Thu, 17 June 2004 03:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
Messages: 712
Registered: September 2002
Location: Surf City, USA
Senior Member
Administrator
I think Travis may be a necessary phase for Tuck and it may be coming time for Tuck to move on to some other relationship. I think Debbie is done, as others have said, restoring that broken trust would be a nearly insurmountable problem.

But Tuck needs to explore what it is to be Tuck before any permanent decisions are made. It's time to play the Jack of Hearts. Smile

Or is the Jack a Jill? Smile

Perhaps after Tuck discovers just who Tuck really is, it might be time to revisit Travis or Debbie, but right now I think Tuck really needs to find out some important inner-self things.

- Erin
Re: A new romance? [message #1992] Thu, 17 June 2004 04:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
Messages: 589
Registered: September 2003
Senior Member
Erin Halfelven wrote on Thu, 17 June 2004 00:13

Or is the Jack a Jill? Smile

Jill is certainly #1 on my list of candidates if Travis disappears. Mike would be #2, but that feels seriously wrong to me. I must admit that there are several things in the story pointing to him as a candidate, though. Mostly the negative reaction both of them have to the concept, but the idea has popped up several places. Mike also meets the 'appeared in episode 1' test.
I agree, Tuck needs to figure out who Tuck is before starting a new relationship, or even seriously continuing with Travis.
As to the "why are people suprised by Travis with a girlfriend" question: Getting Eagle Scout at the age Travis did takes up an incredible amount of time, and most of the ones who do are shy, or geeky, or otherwise don't have much time for romance. I think they may have a somewhat better track record than average with ending up with somebody good in the end, though, so it balances out.
Re: A new romance? [message #1994] Thu, 17 June 2004 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
Messages: 197
Registered: May 2004
Senior Member
Mike? No way....Their relationship is akin to Lanier and Bill. In terms of film references, buddy characters typified by Redford/Newman or Gibson/Glover. They know each other's heads and would die for each other under protective circumstances.

I think it would be interesting to see Tuck hook up with Julia for a bit. Conversations with the parents should be interesting since they all know about each other.... Cool
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #1999] Sat, 19 June 2004 03:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dark canuck  is currently offline dark canuck
Messages: 10
Registered: October 2002
Junior Member
Doragoon wrote on Tue, 15 June 2004 16:27

on deb's side of things, why would she want tuck back? she's got a longterm and meaningfull relationship with Jill.


Am I missing something here? Are we talking about Lisa here, or Has Jill done something that I completely read over?

At any rate, the reason so many people keep holding on to the Debbie idea is because it was exciting, it was dynamic, it was fun. Yes, she pulled Tuck in a thousand directions. Yes, she was controlling and demanding. But it was fun, and it made Tuck feel happy, if perhaps a little stressed. Travis, to me, feels very much like a rebound relationship. I've been through the same thing. He's pretty much the opposite of Debbie, and he cares about Val. He's safe, and he's made Tuck realize that someone else is capable of loving him, after "the first big relationship" went south. I'm somewhat expecting Tuck to come to a realization soon, and be stronger for it. 'Course, this is Ellen we're talking about here, not nearly torturous enough for Tuck. But I never DID think Travis was the real thing. He IS pretty boring...
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #2003] Tue, 22 June 2004 10:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
Messages: 684
Registered: September 2002
Senior Member
[quote title=dark canuck wrote on Sat, 19 June 2004 08:38]
Doragoon wrote on Tue, 15 June 2004 16:27

on deb's side of things, why would she want tuck back? she's got a longterm and meaningfull relationship with Jill.


Am I missing something here? Are we talking about Lisa here, or Has Jill done something that I completely read over?

We're talking about Lisa; or Doragoon is having a stroke or something...
Jill and Debbie haven't done anything like that, that _I_ know of.

Then again, you have to be suspicious of those sleepovers... =)


Ellen
nosig

Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #2004] Tue, 22 June 2004 19:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
Messages: 589
Registered: September 2003
Senior Member
Ellen Hayes wrote on Tue, 22 June 2004 07:35


Jill and Debbie haven't done anything like that, that _I_ know of.

Then again, you have to be suspicious of those sleepovers... =)

You just love to show up here and mess with our heads, don't you? Smile
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #2005] Tue, 22 June 2004 19:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
Messages: 334
Registered: September 2002
Location: Everett, WA
Senior Member

Quote:

on deb's side of things, why would she want tuck back? she's got a longterm and meaningfull relationship with Jill.


yes, i sometimes spaz out and mix up thier names. i'm not sure why i do that, but i've done it for years, ever since the first time i ever read this story.

actualy, it might have something to do with thier hair, jill should have never dyed it. but then again, lisa has longer hair and is taller (lisa is 5'8" but how tall is jill?)... i guess all blondes just look the same to me Razz
Re: Facing up to Debbie... when? [message #2006] Tue, 22 June 2004 19:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
Messages: 290
Registered: November 2002
Location: Bristol, UK
Senior Member
OtherEric wrote on Wed, 23 June 2004 00:11

Ellen Hayes wrote on Tue, 22 June 2004 07:35


Jill and Debbie haven't done anything like that, that _I_ know of.

Then again, you have to be suspicious of those sleepovers... =)

You just love to show up here and mess with our heads, don't you? Smile


Go and scrub your brain this instant, young man.


Rachel
Re: A new romance? [message #2383] Tue, 21 September 2004 21:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TJ
Messages: 2
Registered: September 2004
Junior Member
Now that Debbie is back in a big positive way in helping Tuck after the attack, I see the potential, and hope to a large extent, that Tuck-Val can forgive and renew a romance. I think Travis has other problems of his own. Debbie could help Tuck more to deal with the issues at hand and still be with him/her whichever road he takes.
Re: A new romance? [message #2391] Wed, 22 September 2004 00:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
Messages: 589
Registered: September 2003
Senior Member
While I think there's a real chance that Tuck and Deb might be able to become friends again- possibly even very good friends- I really don't see a romance between them starting up again. There is just too much in the way. Not the least of which is the fact that Tuck seems to be more interested in guys.

By the way, welcome TJ!
Re: A new romance? [message #2393] Wed, 22 September 2004 02:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
Messages: 695
Registered: August 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Senior Member
OtherEric wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 21:32

While I think there's a real chance that Tuck and Deb might be able to become friends again- possibly even very good friends- I really don't see a romance between them starting up again. There is just too much in the way. Not the least of which is the fact that Tuck seems to be more interested in guys.

By the way, welcome TJ!


Actually, I'd say that Tuck is interested in a *particular* guy. He may not be as interested in guys in general.

And his relationship with Debbie showed that he's at least bi.

Re: A new romance? [message #2400] Wed, 22 September 2004 18:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
TJ wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 18:40

Now that Debbie is back in a big positive way in helping Tuck after the attack, I see the potential, and hope to a large extent, that Tuck-Val can forgive and renew a romance. I think Travis has other problems of his own. Debbie could help Tuck more to deal with the issues at hand and still be with him/her whichever road he takes.


Given Tuck's personality, I think the decision here will be entirely up to Debbie. If she does want him back, I can see her telling Tuck, not inaccurately, that he's still alive because of her, and that she had to marry him to accomplish it.

I think Debbie will concede in her own mind that she loves Tuck but still can't trust him. I'm inclined to doubt that she'll want him back as more than a friend under those circumstances, and certainly not unless he's willing to agree that the relationship with Travis is unsustainable. Which, since Tuck has decided, probably wrongly, that his physical interests are in guys in general -- since he said at the last slumber party that he doesn't even look at people he's not dating, we can't say for sure whether it's true -- may, for once, be something Debbie can't talk him out of.

(There's the melodramatic possibility that Tuck will wake up without the memory of the last four and a half months. I don't think Ellen would do anything that contrived, but it's interesting to wonder how a Tuck who still thinks his relationship with Debbie is ongoing would change the situation, if at all.)

Eric
Re: A new romance? [message #2404] Wed, 22 September 2004 21:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TJ
Messages: 2
Registered: September 2004
Junior Member
"(There's the melodramatic possibility that Tuck will wake up without the memory of the last four and a half months. I don't think Ellen would do anything that contrived, but it's interesting to wonder how a Tuck who still thinks his relationship with Debbie is ongoing would change the situation, if at all.)"

Now that would be interesting!

TJ
Re: A new romance? [message #2410] Thu, 23 September 2004 01:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Raadsel  is currently offline Raadsel
Messages: 21
Registered: September 2004
Location: TX
Junior Member
Quote:

"(There's the melodramatic possibility that Tuck will wake up without the memory of the last four and a half months. I don't think Ellen would do anything that contrived, but it's interesting to wonder how a Tuck who still thinks his relationship with Debbie is ongoing would change the situation, if at all.)"

Now that would be interesting!


Interesting but terribly cruel. All that information that Tuck learned in September from the tests would have to be told to him again and he'd have to reprocess. Not to mention the whole episode with his parents knowing about Val. Do you thing they'd punish him for it again since he can't remember being grounded? If he forgot a year (it's only been since last Halloween), he could forget being Val at all.

OTOH, Tuck wouldn't remember his mother running into Val at the Mall, and miss the worst of his mother's anger and screaming -- at least until he got all the memories back.

Last, that may almost make sense as it is how Tuck has been handling his problems. I could see him wanting to forget what's happened over the last year.
Re: A new romance? [message #2487] Sun, 03 October 2004 08:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ray96  is currently offline Ray96
Messages: 20
Registered: October 2002
Location: Germany
Junior Member
Debbie & Tuck?
Tuck realising that Debbie safed his life might make him talk to her again. They might become fiends again, but nothing more.

Jill & Tuck?
I think of them more as best friend's

Travis & Tuck?
Travis has overcome a lot to love Val. My opinion is, that he just dissappeared or a while to prepare Tuck's current situation. The unresolved situation between the two of them intensifies the Tuck's current desperate situation. I'm sure they get back together. But for how long? Tuck is still misleading him about not telling him about his male side of life...

alternate relationship?
How about Kim & Val. Kim said quite a while ago, that she envies Debbie of Tuck. Val & Kim lately weren't on good speaking terms. That might be, because Kim is envious of Val & Travis. Her making a move on Val would also have the nasty twist of placing a wedge of mistrust between Tuck & Mike. I don't think they are going to form a relationship. But Kim breaking up with Mike, because of Val would be enough...
Re: A new romance? [message #2492] Mon, 04 October 2004 08:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
Raadsel wrote on Wed, 22 September 2004 22:05

If he forgot a year (it's only been since last Halloween), he could forget being Val at all...Last, that may almost make sense as it is how Tuck has been handling his problems. I could see him wanting to forget what's happened over the last year.


I guess that could be made to work, or (more likely?) that he awakens thinking he's just been knocked out by Bobby McPhearson at the mall on November 1, with Travis coming to his rescue -- that being the trauma that left him unconscious around that time that he'd "logically" flash back to.

That's sort of an interesting thought; assuming Travis is around when he wakes up this time, in some ways what happens isn't all that different from the first time: it's still Travis, calling him Valerie, who's trying to reassure him that everything will be OK, Debbie's with them trying to stay on top of the situation, and Mike's present for moral support. This time he's in the hospital and his family is there with him, but Tuck wouldn't find that too illogical after unconsciousness caused by a head injury.

And back on 11/1/96, having his family learn about Valerie wouldn't have been that much of a problem -- it was a legitimate Halloween costume, Tuck knew that Mike would cover for him and say that the two of them were at Mike's place overnight, and the rest of it's basically the truth: they discovered after the party that the costume wouldn't come off, and Tuck had to find Debbie at the mall the next day to get it removed. (The only question in that scenario would be why Travis was still calling him Valerie.)

So it might take him a while to catch on, and to realize that this Valerie "costume" DOESN'T come off. And once he's confronted with the reason for that, his reaction may be the same one he had last spring: run and hide and then decide whether or not he wants to continue living. On the other hand, there may be nothing -- except a year's worth of female hormones affecting his brain, his fear of hospitals and medical operations, and his legitimate objection to steroids -- to prevent him from accepting the medical recommendations and trying to become the best male he can be. He'd be scared of any relationship with Travis (but back on 11/1 he was scared of that anyway), and the consensus of opinion here is that whatever Travis' feelings for Valerie, he'd be unwilling or even unable to transfer them to a more fully male Tuck.

(On the other hand, Mike knows that Tuck had discovered in the meantime that sex with Travis was "better than Debbie". Would Mike want to take advantage of this opportunity to forget that, or feel obliged to tell Tuck about it?)

And of course there's the whole Tuck-Debbie question. Presumably Tuck would want the relationship to continue and Debbie would still feel that she could no longer trust Tuck. (And if she decided to change her mind, Lisa would probably talk her out of it.)

[Updated on: Mon, 04 October 2004 08:53]

Re: A new romance? [message #2493] Mon, 04 October 2004 09:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
Ray96 wrote on Sun, 03 October 2004 05:25

Travis & Tuck?
Travis has overcome a lot to love Val...I'm sure they get back together. But for how long? Tuck is still misleading him about not telling him about his male side of life.


I wouldn't say at this point that Tuck is still misleading Travis. I think Tuck realized when he let Mike talk to him this past week that it'd be futile to try any further misdirection there, if doing so were even possible at this point. I don't think that Tuck/Val would decide to break it off, regardless of provocation, at least not unless Mike gave Tuck a logical reason why he should. So it ought to last as long as Travis wants it to. And that would probably depend either on Tuck's willingness to become Valerie fulltime or Travis's acceptance of a continuing relationship with a parttime Val.

Ray96 wrote on Sun, 03 October 2004 05:25

alternate relationship?
How about Kim & Val. Kim said quite a while ago, that she envies Debbie of Tuck. Val & Kim lately weren't on good speaking terms. That might be, because Kim is envious of Val & Travis. Her making a move on Val would also have the nasty twist of placing a wedge of mistrust between Tuck & Mike. I don't think they are going to form a relationship. But Kim breaking up with Mike because of Val would be enough.


Interesting idea, but IMO there's just too much wrong with it.

Based on what we've seen so far, Kim would probably consider Val a perfect choice for her. There are points in the story, I think (notably the trips to "womyn's" bookstores), that give the impression that Kim, because of her past trouble with guys, wishes she were lesbian but isn't physically attracted to women. Tuck/Val's in-between status would be very appealing.

But as she's been presented, Kim doesn't have the self-confidence to initiate a relationship with anyone, much less someone already in a relationship with someone else. She wouldn't dare force anyone to make a choice, because she'd be sure the choice wouldn't go her way.

And there's no reason Val would want to reciprocate, even less so if doing so would drive any kind of a wedge between Tuck and Mike. As someone pointed out in another thread, Kim is responsible, indirectly at least, for just about everything that's happened to Tuck since the day Val brought Stella to the mall, including the final attack. (And Tuck knows at least some of that; it was the basis for their angry words the morning of the attack.)

In fact, I'd go out on a limb and say that if Travis broke things off and Tuck/Val wanted a relationship on the rebound, Tuck/Val would choose almost any other non-family member of the cast over Kim. (George, probably not. James T. Cooper, on the other hand...)

Is envy of Travis is what set Kim, however unwittingly, onto this chain of events? I think that'd be hard to show. It's not impossible, but I don't see a lot of support for it.

I think that even if somehow (another drug party?) Kim got the nerve to dump Mike to make a play for Val, Mike would be too cool a hand, even in an emotional situation like that one, to hold it against Val.
Re: A new romance? [message #2496] Mon, 04 October 2004 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
Messages: 159
Registered: October 2002
Location: North Texas
Senior Member

Brooke wrote on Wed, 22 September 2004 01:46

OtherEric wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 21:32

While I think there's a real chance that Tuck and Deb might be able to become friends again- possibly even very good friends- I really don't see a romance between them starting up again. There is just too much in the way. Not the least of which is the fact that Tuck seems to be more interested in guys.

By the way, welcome TJ!


Actually, I'd say that Tuck is interested in a *particular* guy. He may not be as interested in guys in general.

And his relationship with Debbie showed that he's at least bi.




Valarie/Tuck if you read the encounter between the "new" Valarie and Debbie in the early chapters there are things that say to me it was a lesbian relationship for the most part as Valarie is incapable of a male orgasm and emotionally reacts like any other female. I cannot see Valarie (even though Valarie was seeing herself as a male at the time) being able either physically or mentally reacting as a male as that requires her to have testerone which she never had. Of course it is not Valarie's fault as she had no way to know and heaven forbid she would ask a male about such intimate things.

As to the renewal of the relationship between Valarie and Debbie I see a renewal of their friendship but not a close one. As Valarie/Tuck stopped the attack in the mall so that is a debt that Debbie owes Valarie. Debbie also came to Valaries aid in the hospital repaying the debt owed. I see that allowing them to call a truce and at least become friends again. Maybe over time good friends as the trust was broken and the scars remain.

Possible future relationships, hmmm let me see no one has mentioned Jack or the guys in the band in the club where she likes to go dance. You never know she might finally get up on stage and sing with the band. Who is to say anything is possible.


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: A new romance? [message #2506] Tue, 05 October 2004 03:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
Vicki wrote on Mon, 04 October 2004 10:32

Valarie/Tuck if you read the encounter between the "new" Valarie and Debbie in the early chapters there are things that say to me it was a lesbian relationship for the most part as Valarie is incapable of a male orgasm and emotionally reacts like any other female.

You might want to read those again. It's explicitly stated in the 01:02 23 Nov sex scene that Tuck climaxed and ejaculated. The narrative doesn't give us any reason at all to think that he wasn't equally successful on most of the other occasions mentioned. And with the possible exception of 09:32 13 Mar, when Tuck asks Debbie, more or less, to demonstrate on him what she and Lisa do when they're together, it's always clear that Tuck considers it a hetero relationship and would like Debbie to feel the same.

And Debbie does think that way, at least at times. She doesn't need Valerie to have sex; Debbie and Tuck have gotten together in Tuck's bed, not to mention his bathroom shower, two or three times. For that matter they've cuddled together suggestively -- at least, Brian thought so -- in front of the Tucker TV set with the family present, certainly not a Valerie situation.

Eric
Re: A new romance? [message #2510] Tue, 05 October 2004 11:38 Go to previous message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
Messages: 440
Registered: October 2003
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Senior Member
Also, there is this passage from the original "Tuck Season":

Quote:

In fact, Kathy had commented that Tucker was probably going to lose it in his pants about four seconds after seeing her. Debbie didn't care; he was good for a LOT more than one shot.

OK, Season is not canonical story-wise, BUT any info relating to things that happened before the fork (around May or June, if I recall), or to things that could reasonably be supposed to be the same in both universes, should be at least be considered as a good clue. Unless Ellen takes it off in the revision, of course. But this seems to imply that Tuck's bedroom performance is not lacking.

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Previous Topic:What Next?
Next Topic:Talk about foreshadowing....
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Thu Jun 21 18:45:55 EDT 2018

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.03020 seconds
.:: Contact :: Home ::.

Powered by: FUDforum 2.7.7.
Copyright ©2001-2007 FUD Forum Bulletin Board Software