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Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #237] Mon, 07 October 2002 12:33 Go to next message
Upinmyhead  is currently offline Upinmyhead
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I've been rereading the saga all over again, and I've got to say that chapters 42-43 really stump me.

My first question is, how can Julia and Jack know so little about what happened to Tuck after they found the hotel room empty and Debbie gone? All you really figure out from the end of chapter 42 is Tuck going back up to the room, with Julia and Jack right THERE with him... And yet in the next chapter, Julia rings the Tucker residence and just says "Things got weird..." and Jack, upon next seeing Tuck, asks him what happened. Maybe it's just me, but that occurance just strikes me as really fragmented and unexplainable. And I really can't imagine Julia or Jack just letting Tuck get out of their sight after that discovery. He was royally screwed up, to be blunt... I guess I'd really just like to know what the flaming heck happened.

My second question is really more of a future question... So we've seen it established that Tuck and Debbie are nowhere near speaking terms, because of what happened. However, the one thing that really grates with me is that it's been months and months since the breakup, and both are still (AFAIK) completely unable to see where the other person's head is at. I think Mike and the Pack know the whole story, which is that Debbie was upset and drunk, and overreacted, and Tuck was also upset and reacted physically on her.

But these are smart characters, even if they're both emotionally unstable. Tuck's smart enough to understand that Debbie would have been freaked by the intruder, if anyone told him about it (I don't think anyone ever has), and he KNEW that she was getting drunk, and she was upset. It wasn't like he suddenly walked in on her like that, she was getting that way before he left. And Debbie, even though I'm sure she intensely disliked getting dropped by her bf, has the sense to realize that if she wasn't drunk, suffering PMS, and hadn't belted Tucker in the snout, then he wouldn't have dropped her. And even if that wasn't enough, she's smart enough to understand that Tuck was having a bad night, what with the fight and all.

It just seems so odd for me, this whole breakup. As far as I understand it, it was like a big series of bad coincidences all adding up to an unpleasant whole, and anyone can see that (especially the Pack, and Mike to a lesser extent). Maybe it doesn't matter now Tucker is with Travis, but some closure would be better. I don't think the characters (or the event) have any closure at the moment; it was just left wide open, and no one's touched it with a ten-foot bargepole, save for the moment where Tucker saved Debbie from a beating.

I dunno. Maybe it's just my mind telling me these characters aren't as stupid as I perceive them to be here. But I don't think the event's ever had any satisfactory closure.
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #238] Mon, 07 October 2002 17:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maynard  is currently offline Maynard
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My immediate response without really thinking about it is that Jack and Julia did not go with Tuck up to his room. Thus Tuck would have left the hotel without them knowing anything.

Second, there are a lot of events in life that do not have closure. In ancient history, I left a girl friend and it was over six month before we said our final good-bye. So there may never be a closure between Deb and Tuck. I think the tension is closer to real life.


Maynard
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #239] Mon, 07 October 2002 20:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Adding to that, Debbie and Tuck are both smart; Tuck especially technically and Debbie especially in business. Neither is that smart in interpersonal skills. These are very different things. The whole instability and fogginess of the incident strikes me as one of the most realistic elements of the breakup.

Yes, it was all a horrible misunderstanding. But sometimes, misunderstandings are very hard to clear up, especially if trust has been lost. And trust has been lost on both sides of this break-up. Too, neither Debbie nor Tuck is particularly good at facing painful emotions and working through them without some sort of drama.

Frankly, I can't write this sort of interpersonal carwreck and have it ring so true, complete with ambiguities and unresolved issues. Like upinmyhead, this sort of thing is an itch I want to scratch and if I were writing it, I would be unable to not scratch it.

I think Ellen will get around to dealing with some of this, tho. I fully expect Debbie to be an important part of the story of Tuck in the future.

-- Erin
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #240] Tue, 08 October 2002 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lykofos
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There is an additional unresolved issue between Debbie and Tuck- the Tom Lenich "rescue", and the aborted discussion between the two of them afterwards.

Tuck was forcibly marched into the cafeteria to talk to her, blurted out some sort of vague apology type thing, and took off from the cafeteria in a panic attack.

I would suspect, at some future point, there will be renewed communication between Tuck and Debbie.
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #242] Tue, 08 October 2002 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
diana  is currently offline diana
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Quote "I would suspect, at some future point, there will be renewed communication between Tuck and Debbie."

Yes, I would agree -- BUT; I think that, at least at first, it will have to be indirect probably through another member of The Pack. Kathy maybe? Neither Tuck nor Debbie could handle it as matters are. It's been left too long.

Or does Tuck tell Sheila about it? Now there's a thought!
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #287] Sat, 12 October 2002 01:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iWindoze  is currently offline iWindoze
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erin wrote on Mon, 07 October 2002 19:04

...especially if trust has been lost. And trust
has been lost on both sides of this break-up.
Too, neither Debbie nor Tuck is particularly
good at facing painful emotions and working
through them without some sort of drama.
-- Erin


I'd honestly question if there really was any 'true'
trust in each other, even from the beginning? I'm as
much a fan of the Debbie\Tuck matchup as anyone, but
as the story continues to grow and Tuck continues to
evolve I'd have to say that the relationship was an
unhealthy one because it was a relationship of unequals.
The one thing that strikes me the most in 20/20 hindsight
is that Debbie needs to feel in control, perhaps this
is an unresolved issue to do with her parents? Whatever
the case, most of Tuck's interactions with Debbie seemed
to be about him doing what Debbie wanted. In the 30th
episode we see the begining of the shift where Tuck
admits:

From Episode 30 before the ballgame

"Deb, I don't think real well when you're around.
And if you said for me to do something, I'd probably
do it, even if I wouldn't want to when you weren't
there. So if I talked to you about it, then you'd
say well, just go on, even though I might not want to."


So I question whether Trust actually existed in that
relationship? especially when contrasted with the trust
shared in the Val\Travis relationship? But even that
relationship isn't perfect so I wonder how long it will
be before the inequality in that relationship begins to
chip away at the foundation until a major argument of
sorts becomes inevitable? Like it or not Val still has
a penis at this point and sooner or later Travis will
need to confront that.

Right now I think Travis has it a little TOO easy, he
gets to have 'gay' sex with a guy that can pass for a
girl in public and he gets all the illusions of being
straight without having to take any of the risks losing
the illusion would present, even when they're together
alone and no one else in the room. Not that Tuck\Val
has gone out of her way to broach the subject....
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #291] Sat, 12 October 2002 03:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Good points on Tuck/Debbie, too.

[guote]Right now I think Travis has it a little TOO easy, he
gets to have 'gay' sex with a guy that can pass for a
girl in public and he gets all the illusions of being
straight without having to take any of the risks losing
the illusion would present, even when they're together
alone and no one else in the room. Not that Tuck\Val
has gone out of her way to broach the subject....[/quote]

The first person that Travis is fooling with his charade that Tuck is Valerie and nothing else, is himself. He's a straight guy, having gay sex, and that just doesn't add up. When he really faces this, it may hit him WAY harder than the counterpart realization hit Tuck/Val.

And the Pack has called Val on this, warning her that dishonest relationships are blowups waiting to happen. This is possibly Ellen setting the scene for the next turning point in the saga.

Or will the next turning point be some new medical revelation? Ellen keeps us guessing and we love it. Smile

- Erin
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #292] Sat, 12 October 2002 08:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iWindoze  is currently offline iWindoze
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erin wrote on Sat, 12 October 2002 02:05

Ellen keeps us guessing and we love it. Smile

- Erin



Errr...ummm...we do?? ^_~'

[iWindoze begins to wave incense around while
chanting 'let there be an update soon!' and rubbing
his belly clockwise while patting his head]

LOL
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #293] Sat, 12 October 2002 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Upinmyhead  is currently offline Upinmyhead
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erin wrote on Sat, 12 October 2002 15:05



The first person that Travis is fooling with his charade that Tuck is Valerie and nothing else, is himself. He's a straight guy, having gay sex, and that just doesn't add up. When he really faces this, it may hit him WAY harder than the counterpart realization hit Tuck/Val.

And the Pack has called Val on this, warning her that dishonest relationships are blowups waiting to happen. This is possibly Ellen setting the scene for the next turning point in the saga.

Or will the next turning point be some new medical revelation? Ellen keeps us guessing and we love it. Smile

- Erin


I agree completely about Travis fooling himself. He's always liked Val, and has never seen Tuck. It wasn't until Lisa told him that he even suspected anything, I believe, and even though he knows, he can avoid it just as easily as Tuck can, because to him, Tuck IS Val, and always has been a girl to him, despite the plumbing. Hell, the fact that Travis' friends all saw Tuck the night after he slept over and STILL didn't see or suspect anything...

I can see Travis' meeting of Tuck going really badly, if it ever happens. I think that Tuck would probably be hurt if Travis treats him any differently than when he's Val. But then again, it seems that since Travis and Tuck started seriously dating, Tuck has been living two lives, much moreso (in my opinion) than when he was with Debbie. With Debbie, it was a case of "Well, Debbie likes it when I do this, so I'll do it." Debbie at least knew that Tuck was Val. Travis only knows Val, and I think the realization that there is a Tuck as well, will really throw him.
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #305] Tue, 15 October 2002 02:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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> I can see Travis' meeting of Tuck going really badly, if it
> ever happens.

you mean by, like, book inviting his freind, travis (who owed him 10 bucks), to the party becouse he has no clue that tuck is still dating him. infact, he might do it just becouse tuck went on three dates with him and it would make tuck squirm. i don't think mike ever told anyone about the extra work tuck was going for travis. it would be a fun joke to play for book to invite travis. but it would never happen.


> I think that Tuck would probably be hurt if Travis treats him
> any differently than when he's Val.

ah, but there's the catch. travis would have to ignore tuck becouse he's not supposed to know him and why would he ever talk to a geek like him? but that would make tuck so sad, becouse you know the whole time he's just wanting to hang on his arm. and if any girls started hitting on him.... THAT would be hard for tuck to just sit back and watch. but he has to.. they would have to compleatly act like they don't know each other.


> With Debbie, it was a case of "Well, Debbie likes it when I do
> this, so I'll do it."

but val does it with travis too, right?


> Travis only knows Val, and I think the realization that there
> is a Tuck as well, will really throw him.

does he even know that tuck exists. he's never heard val called any other name. he knows val "used to be a guy" but thats all. that could mean a lot of differant things to travis.
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #310] Wed, 16 October 2002 03:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ray96  is currently offline Ray96
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Is there a chance, that Travis would ever meet Tuck? The clothes don't matter (I can rember a by chance meeting between them, where Tuck switched to Val by just adjusting her bust). My guess is, that Tuck might switch to Val mode, as soon as he sees Travis or run away, if it's in public.

And would the realization of having gay sex really hit Travis that hard? He already had to confront, that he's technically dating a guy and Valerie isn't pretending to be Valerie, she is Valerie. The realization would be uneasy for both of them, but I can't imagine, it being a major shock for one of them.

In the bikini beach story, Val had to look up her private parts, in order to know whether she still had them or not. I've trouble, imagining it, but does she forget about them, even while having sex with Travis? In the end, the confrontation of having gay sex will force to think about her Tuck/Val situation.
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #312] Wed, 16 October 2002 03:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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we must we must we must adjust our bust Very Happy
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #313] Wed, 16 October 2002 19:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iWindoze  is currently offline iWindoze
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Ray96 wrote on Wed, 16 October 2002 02:11

Is there a chance, that Travis would ever meet Tuck?
The clothes don't matter (I can rember a by chance meeting
between them, where Tuck switched to Val by just adjusting
her bust). My guess is, that Tuck might switch to Val mode,
as soon as he sees Travis or run away, if it's in public.



Don't forget that whole scene with the math geeks all
gaga over the thought of a cute girl who *liked* math!!

;P
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #316] Thu, 17 October 2002 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lykofos
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*laugh*
Or Tuck's reply of "This one does" and walking away, realising after the fact he had referred to himself as a girl (while not being Val).
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #319] Sun, 20 October 2002 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Upinmyhead  is currently offline Upinmyhead
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Ray96 wrote on Wed, 16 October 2002 15:11

And would the realization of having gay sex really hit Travis that hard? He already had to confront, that he's technically dating a guy and Valerie isn't pretending to be Valerie, she is Valerie. The realization would be uneasy for both of them, but I can't imagine, it being a major shock for one of them.


I don't know how it would affect him, really. I can't for the life of me remember the chapter number (somewhere between 75 and 80), but Travis asked Tuck if he still wanted to be his 'girlfriend', with no-one else around. So I think he's still misleading himself. Maybe it allows him to be gay in an 'okay' manner.

Tuck acts differently in Val-gear. I think Travis would be surprised to see Tuck instead of Val, and he'd probably be uncomfortable. If Travis is uncomfortable with being gay, and the only thing keeping him from really accepting this is that he has a 'girlfriend', not a boyfriend... then meeting the boyfriend might not be pleasant.
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #320] Mon, 21 October 2002 00:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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I agree and I suspect that this may be the turning point that Ellen is leading up to this time. Then again it could be another revelation about Tuck's physical condition. Or it could be somethng else. Smile

- Erin
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #321] Mon, 21 October 2002 02:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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> Maybe it allows him to be gay in an 'okay' manner.

Is travis really gay? he's never shown any intrest in men. Gay men have shown not shown any intrest in Val. Travis's dating Val does not make him Gay. Would any of you MtF's out there like it if somone thought a man was gay for dating you? what tuck has down his pants makes no differance. Travis never has to see it or think about it in any way. So what makes travis gay? Having anal sex does not make somone gay. besides that, there have been many historical examples of men having sex with cross dressed males and never knowing about the true anatomy of thier lover. it HAS happened. there's a famous case of an ambasitor who was disgraced becouse of it.
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #322] Mon, 21 October 2002 06:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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The interesting thing is that Tuck sometimes thinks of it as gay sex when he is being tuck and thinks of travis. But when valerie thinks of travis she thinks of herself as Travis' girlfriend, a non gay relationship...

hmm,

but gay is an attitude and an intent more than just anatomy, travis is not gay except in a narrow technical sense

still ahving it brought home to him by running into tuck as tuck might be VERY uncomfortable for him

- Erin
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #323] Mon, 21 October 2002 17:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sandradee  is currently offline sandradee
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Mentally and emotionally Travis and Valerie appear to relate as boyfriend and girlfriend, so in that aspect their relationship is not gay. They view and approach things differently. Travis is a gynophile, by which I mean he is attracted to people who present as women.

Socially they are treated as a straight couple because most people percieve Valerie as a woman. Also, currently, Travis sees Valerie as a girl, something Travis is not.

Physically the situation gets a little stickier, so to speak. For the most part their physical relationship would be rather typical of a straight relationship. And even with intercourse Travis is always the giving man he is and Valerie is the reciever. Anal sex does not make on gay, I know hetero-cisgendered couples that do. But the one concession I will give is that Travis and Tuck are left with it as the alternative because Val lacks the necessary equipment.

Genetically/Physiologically you can argue that Tuck has the right bits to be considered male and thus the relationship is male to male. But even then we know that isnt totaly true, something is going on with Tuck, the breast growth indicates something.

Of course I am biased. I am in a relationship with a man and we both consider our relationship straight, and our perception of it is good enough for us.

All of that being said, if Travis is directly confronted with the male side of Tuck he has an acceptance process to go through. Sorry for all the length.
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #325] Mon, 21 October 2002 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ChangelingJane
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sandradee wrote on Mon, 21 October 2002 16:00

Travis is a gynophile, by which I mean he is attracted to people who present as women.



I don't think this is true. When Travis was first attracted to Valerie, he had no idea that she was physically male. Their relationship, emotionally, isn't that complex--it began as a guy liking a girl (and eventually vice-versa as well), and it still is, emotionally. Just because Val/Tuck doesn't exactly match on the inside and out doesn't change that, all it means is that they have a little more to deal with than your average couple. I don't buy Travis being gay or a "gynophile" of any sort. He's just an open-minded straight person. They DO exist, you know.


-ChangelingJane-
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #327] Mon, 21 October 2002 18:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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i don't know why but this last post reminded meof an idea that 'd bee mulling over of a few months.

why did deb and lisa send tuck out on those dates with travis?

my idea is tht lisa WANTED tuck to come out to himself and end up breaking up wih deb. infact, this might not have been the first time she's done it. Lisa might have been sabotaging every one of deb's relaionships once they start getting too serious. but as far as tuck is concerned, lisa was the one with the debt. she told deb about whattravis wanted in return. we never found out what, if anything, travis did for lisa to get owed the favor. If lisa made all that up just to get a deb to her self, amybe in exchange for a date for travis. travis admited to not being very good around women that would be an easy way to get a date for that school dance.

so, did lisa set tuck up with travis in the hopes of tuck dumping dab and dating travis?
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #329] Mon, 21 October 2002 20:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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I think you've misunderstood what "gynophile" means. Your post seems to indicate that you think "gynophile" means "attracted to males who present as female". It doesn't, it means "attracted to persons who present as female". It describes most straight men, a few gay men who prefer she-males or crossdressers, and most lesbians.

Perhaps this was not clear from context, or perhaps I have misunderstood your point in turn.

- Erin
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #330] Mon, 21 October 2002 20:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Interesting thought.

Lisa also is the one who "leaked" the truth to Travis, was this in an attempt to break up T&T or to strengthen their relationship by bringing it more into the light? Or was it just drunken blabbermouthing?

As far as Lisa's debt to Travis, the implication seemed to me to be that Travis had rescued Lisa in some way, perhaps from an attacker, perhaps from trying to take her own life.

- Erin
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #331] Mon, 21 October 2002 21:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ChangelingJane
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erin wrote on Mon, 21 October 2002 19:43

I think you've misunderstood what "gynophile" means.


Yep, I did. I read "people who present as female" wrong--I didn't think of females *presenting* as females, they don't have to, do they? So it must mean males presenting as females. That was my train of thought when I read, anyways ^_^

[Updated on: Mon, 21 October 2002 21:37]


-ChangelingJane-
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #333] Mon, 21 October 2002 22:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sandradee  is currently offline sandradee
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I did not mean to cause confusion. I know a few people who use it for a broader term for someone attracted to those who present (appear or try to appear) as women (or our definition of the term), that includes many woman and mtf and others. As for women always presenting as women there are those that are androgynous or ftm or feel like not being bound by modern western gender constructs and defy binary categorization, such as my best friend (gg).
Re: Two questions to do with Tuck and Deb's breakup... [message #338] Tue, 22 October 2002 15:49 Go to previous message
iWindoze  is currently offline iWindoze
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Doragoon wrote on Mon, 21 October 2002 17:12

..my idea is tht lisa WANTED tuck to come out to himself and end up breaking up wih deb. infact, this might not have been the first time she's done it. Lisa might have been sabotaging every one of deb's relaionships once they start getting too serious.


'S funny, I asked Ellen that same question way
back when the break up just happened and was fresh
in my mind. She was non-commital but noted something
to the effect that it would have been a real cold
thing to do....

Here's the question I'd love to know the answer to;
does Debbie blame herself for Tuck's physical changes?
Perhaps on the subconcious level she pushed him away
to protect herself from the pain she felt when he took
off? Then atop of all that, despite her seeming enjoyment
of the freedom Tuck's willingness (under pressure) to
transgress gender roles allowed, I wonder if she didn't
somehow associate her 'persuasion' with the advent of
Tuck's physical changes and perhaps she blames herself for
things? This would all be subconcious of course...

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