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Tuck 109 [message #3384] Sun, 03 April 2005 16:43 Go to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Well, it's here. Smile

Lots of stuff going on, not a lot of resolution.

Anybody else getting worried about what sort of climax Ellen may be building towards with all this?

More detailed comments afterr I re-read it a few times and get some sleepo, not necessarily in that order.

Hint. Never check for an "real soon now" update when getting up for a trip to the bathroom.
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3385] Sun, 03 April 2005 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Thanks Brooke, I was waiting for someone to start this thread...I didn't want to look too anxious. Razz

A lot of motion in the universe. Looks like a few more chapters to go in this format. At least we see Mrs. Parker trying to see Val, and Travis peripherally trying to contact Val as well. More questions than answers...Where is Val's pager? What's in Ricky's note? Does Sheila get paid for this "session"? Will Dobson survive school admin politics? Who did Mike bug and who did Debbie wanted bugged?
It also seems Brian has become more involved in the story arc than in the past.

A very interesting chapter if not fully enlightening. Looks like we gotta wait for Chapter 110. Sad
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3387] Sun, 03 April 2005 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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No, I think Ellen actually tried to answer some questions in this chapter. Questions like "what is Travis doing," "what is Lisa doing," "did anybody find Tuck's pager," "aren't the Parkers getting concerned" and such. She updated us in some subjects which, while not central right now, can have ramifications down the road.

(Update: Hey, I just noticed that I got to the magical 100th message! I'm now a "Senior Member," whatever that means. Who do I talk to to get the keys to the executive washroom?)

[Updated on: Sun, 03 April 2005 20:44]


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3390] Sun, 03 April 2005 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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From this statement:

Quote:

"From a little questioning," Lisa said as she forked her salad around, "_I_ don't think the little shit has mentioned to Travis that he's, uh, not quite one thing or the other."


It's clear that she doesn't remember anything from the night Travis got her drunk so she'd tell her the truth about Valerie.

It would also seem that she hasn't heard what happened with Travis and Val over Labor Day weekend, so she doesn't know the two of them have been having sex for a while now. I also have a feeling the other members of the Pack haven't shared this tidbit with Debbie yet either.
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3391] Sun, 03 April 2005 22:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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maltor wrote on Sun, 03 April 2005 23:17


It's clear that she doesn't remember anything from the night Travis got her drunk so she'd tell her the truth about Valerie.

It would also seem that she hasn't heard what happened with Travis and Val over Labor Day weekend, so she doesn't know the two of them have been having sex for a while now. I also have a feeling the other members of the Pack haven't shared this tidbit with Debbie yet either.


Hmm, maybe on the first one, probably on the second one, but...

It's not clear exactly what did Lisa mean by "not quite one thing or the other." In Tuck's case, it might mean a number of different things...

- It might mean just what you supposed, that is, that Tuck is not exactly a girl. Travis already knows that, but as you pointed out, Lisa might not remember that she told him that.

- It ALSO might mean that Tuck is not committed to either a male or female identity. This is actually one of the sticky points in the Tuck/Travis relationship, because Travis is under the impression that Tuck is living full-time as Valerie.

- It ALSO might mean that Tuck is neither male or female, from a biological standpoint. I don't think Tuck has ever explained this to Travis.

HOWEVER, I'm not sure that Lisa knows about this last one either. Hell, I'm not even sure if Debbie knows -- she knows there's something, like an hormonal imbalance, but not about his weird DNA. It depend on whether or not the Pack girls though they should know, and until the last few days, it wouldn't seem a very good idea to offer Debbie this kind of potentially very damaging information.


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3396] Mon, 04 April 2005 11:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Wow. The thread waiting for the new chapter is longer than the one about the new chapter. And, other than the need to say something- anything- I'm not going to be adding much.

This chapter was good, it will be just fine when we have more of the story around it. But there isn't really that much to say about it in isolation that we haven't already guessed in our earlier discussions.

I did like seeing Amy again, however briefly. The Tuckers are too busy to go rescue her if she kills her Mom for having a "snit" while Tuck is in the hospital, however.
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3397] Mon, 04 April 2005 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Parsing what Sir Lee wrote on Sun, 03 April 2005 19:34

maltor wrote on Sun, 03 April 2005 23:17


It's clear that she doesn't remember anything from the night Travis got her drunk so she'd tell her the truth about Valerie.

It would also seem that she hasn't heard what happened with Travis and Val over Labor Day weekend, so she doesn't know the two of them have been having sex for a while now. I also have a feeling the other members of the Pack haven't shared this tidbit with Debbie yet either.


Hmm, maybe on the first one, probably on the second one, but...

It's not clear exactly what did Lisa mean by "not quite one thing or the other." In Tuck's case, it might mean a number of different things...
.... Hell, I'm not even sure if Debbie knows -- she knows there's something, like an hormonal imbalance, but not about his weird DNA. It depend on whether or not the Pack girls though they should know, and until the last few days, it wouldn't seem a very good idea to offer Debbie this kind of potentially very damaging information.


I'm guessing the gist of these points are how much Debbie is aware of Tuck's biology, sexual orientation, and gender perception.
First, with respect to Maltors' comment I would point out in the last section of the new chapter, Travis was suspicious of Deb's intentions when he was speaking to Lisa of Val's whereabouts. In earlier chapters, Travis also pointed out that he knew of Vals' past from Lisa. I.e. Lisa and Travis are tight enough, that Lisa knows a lot about the relationship between Travis/Val and vice versa. And,
From Tuck - 20:28 1 Oct


Some people thought 'keeping a secret' meant just not actually blurting it out loud. Mike and I were of the opinion that if you wanted to keep a secret, you'd better act like there wasn't a secret to be kept. Too many people would say things that technically meant 'no' but-
Well, it was like a lot of people would invite you to play a game of Battleship with whatever the secret was. They technically wouldn't tell, but they'd keep letting you guess and know how close you were until you had enough Clue to figure out what it was.
And these girls had way too much Clue already.


I would think from Tuck's comment that he figures Debbie & Lisa knows just as much as the Pack members about Tuck's current biological problems. If anything, D & L also may view having knowledge of this as a necessity as it may affect their business.
I think Lisa would be aware of Travis' intimate trysts with Valerie - after all, the night Travis got Val to play poker with his friends and their girlfriends would give Travis the affirmation of Travis' masculine reputation by his peers at Red Bluff high. This would have gotten back to Lisa. And recall, Debbie has encountered Valerie and Travis out on a date where Debbie had recommended that if they didn't want to be seen by common people they know, that they leave. I think that this all points out implicitly that Debbie doesn't consider Val/Tuck "with her" anymore and she is aware of Val's relationship with Travis and doesn't care...(that much).
As far as Deb's view of Tuck/Val's gender perception - since most of the Pack tend to view Val as a female - wouldn't have this thought crept over to Deb? Imagine the twists going on in Deb's mind that she has always been a lesbian - even with Tuck! Which probably drove her to date Tom Lenich.
In the end, I think Tuck's fear of Debbie was more in his own mind that Debbie would be vindictively jealous over a "near dead" relationship. It looks like a patchup between them as "friends" will evolve, but a future lover's relationship is likely over.
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3398] Mon, 04 April 2005 20:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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lurker wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 17:51


First, with respect to Maltors' comment I would point out in the last section of the new chapter, Travis was suspicious of Deb's intentions when he was speaking to Lisa of Val's whereabouts. In earlier chapters, Travis also pointed out that he knew of Vals' past from Lisa. I.e. Lisa and Travis are tight enough, that Lisa knows a lot about the relationship between Travis/Val and vice versa.

Tight enough that he had to take her home from a party while she was already under the influence then feed her more alcohol to get her drunk enough to tell him the truth about Val. Yeah... That's a shinning example of a TIGHT friendship.

Quote:

From Tuck - 20:28 1 Oct


Some people thought 'keeping a secret' meant just not actually blurting it out loud. Mike and I were of the opinion that if you wanted to keep a secret, you'd better act like there wasn't a secret to be kept. Too many people would say things that technically meant 'no' but-
Well, it was like a lot of people would invite you to play a game of Battleship with whatever the secret was. They technically wouldn't tell, but they'd keep letting you guess and know how close you were until you had enough Clue to figure out what it was.
And these girls had way too much Clue already.


I would think from Tuck's comment that he figures Debbie & Lisa knows just as much as the Pack members about Tuck's current biological problems. If anything, D & L also may view having knowledge of this as a necessity as it may affect their business.

Not according to this:
From the end of #107

"Debbie? It's Kim... Dan called me and said that they're having a kind of lecture-thing, at Tuck's house, to discuss things about him?"

"Yeah?" She'd heard about the one about his biology, though frustratingly no one would tell her any details.



Quote:

I think Lisa would be aware of Travis' intimate trysts with Valerie - after all, the night Travis got Val to play poker with his friends and their girlfriends would give Travis the affirmation of Travis' masculine reputation by his peers at Red Bluff high. This would have gotten back to Lisa.

But would she believe it even after that night of poker with Travis' friends and their girlfriends? Remember how everyone was surprised that he was out with a girl? Despite the guys seeing Val there that morning, there are bound to be people that don't believe he's gone all the way with her.
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3399] Mon, 04 April 2005 22:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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lurker wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 18:51


I'm guessing the gist of these points are how much Debbie is aware of Tuck's biology, sexual orientation, and gender perception.
First, with respect to Maltors' comment I would point out in the last section of the new chapter, Travis was suspicious of Deb's intentions when he was speaking to Lisa of Val's whereabouts. In earlier chapters, Travis also pointed out that he knew of Vals' past from Lisa. I.e. Lisa and Travis are tight enough, that Lisa knows a lot about the relationship between Travis/Val and vice versa. And,
(...)
I would think from Tuck's comment that he figures Debbie & Lisa knows just as much as the Pack members about Tuck's current biological problems. If anything, D & L also may view having knowledge of this as a necessity as it may affect their business.
I think Lisa would be aware of Travis' intimate trysts with Valerie - after all, the night Travis got Val to play poker with his friends and their girlfriends would give Travis the affirmation of Travis' masculine reputation by his peers at Red Bluff high. This would have gotten back to Lisa. And recall, Debbie has encountered Valerie and Travis out on a date where Debbie had recommended that if they didn't want to be seen by common people they know, that they leave. I think that this all points out implicitly that Debbie doesn't consider Val/Tuck "with her" anymore and she is aware of Val's relationship with Travis and doesn't care...(that much).
As far as Deb's view of Tuck/Val's gender perception - since most of the Pack tend to view Val as a female - wouldn't have this thought crept over to Deb? Imagine the twists going on in Deb's mind that she has always been a lesbian - even with Tuck! Which probably drove her to date Tom Lenich.
In the end, I think Tuck's fear of Debbie was more in his own mind that Debbie would be vindictively jealous over a "near dead" relationship. It looks like a patchup between them as "friends" will evolve, but a future lover's relationship is likely over.


You are reading too much in it. The poker guys saw Travis with a girl. They don't KNOW if he has gone all the way with her. They don't know even if he has seen her naked, or got to third base. They may try to guess, or Travis might have told them something, BUT it doesn't mean that they would believe: teenagers brag all the time about sex.
Neither Lisa would believe, especially if she is working from the assumption that Travis hasn't found out about Val's "male parts" -- which is reasonable, because she doesn't seem to suspect Travis of being gay.

As to Lisa and Travis being "tight:" I don't think so. They are friendly, sure, and Travis has done her favours in the past. But it doesn't follow that they are as tight as, say, even Tuck and Book (who isn't even a full-time Rat Boyz member). And Lisa did not volunteer information to him -- he had to get her drunk first. Also, on his becoming suspicious: OF COURSE he got. He knew (from Val, not Lisa) that Debbie and Val used to be in a relationship, and it ended badly. Ergo, any info coming from the ex should be suspected. If anything, this exchange proves that Travis and Lisa are NOT that tight; she mentions "still speaking" with Debbie -- if they were tight, he would know that Lisa and Debbie are VERY close. Also, she is bullshitting him royally.

As Maltor's quote points out, Debbie probably doesn't know much about Tuck's health problems. She probably guesses by implication that it's more serious than a mere hormonal imbalance -- and she may have noticed that his testes hadn't descended. But the other girls did NOT repeat to her the contents of the briefing.

The Tuck comment you quoted was about KELLY's problems, not his. And Debbie and Lisa weren't even in the conversation; he was referring about the other Pack girls having already too much clues about Kelly being lesbian, and that he wouldn't add to it.

As to Tuck's fears: they certainly are mostly in his own head, but I don't think they are related to her feeling jealous. This has been debated elsewhere, but basically, my take is that they are still strongly attracted to each other, and Tuck is actually afraid of admitting it and becoming vulnerable again to the kind of pain he suffered during the breakup. He rationalizes it trying to see her as a kind of angry demon. The current crisis might force them to be civil again, but I doubt that these two can be "just friends." Either they will keep themselves apart for their own delusional reasons, or they eventually will drift back together as a couple.





Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3400] Mon, 04 April 2005 23:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Sir Lee wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 19:23


You are reading too much in it. The poker guys saw Travis with a girl. They don't KNOW if he has gone all the way with her. They don't know even if he has seen her naked, or got to third base. They may try to guess, or Travis might have told them something, BUT it doesn't mean that they would believe: teenagers brag all the time about sex.
Neither Lisa would believe, especially if she is working from the assumption that Travis hasn't found out about Val's "male parts" -- which is reasonable, because she doesn't seem to suspect Travis of being gay.

Maybe I was reading too much into it. I thought Val's intimate relationship with Travis was obvious to others because of the following:
Val's Poker night with Travis and Friends


19:37 4 Sep

I hadn't relaxed at Travis' place for some reason - I don't know why I was nervous, hanging around all these guys who knew I'd just spent part of the weekend naked in bed with Travis, haha - and when I'd requested some alcohol, I'd gotten a small glass of bourbon and coke and a long shoulder rub from Travis, which was really interfering with my ability to talk.

19:58 4 Sep

"So," Jessie said, and motioned us closer, and continued quietly, "I heard you and Travis had something special planned last weekend?"
And smiled at me.
Maybe it was that the guys were afraid of Travis beating them, and the girls weren't.
"Yeah," I admitted with a sigh.
"That was you?" Megan asked, a bit wide-eyed.
"Were you really here all weekend?" Anne almost choked.
"Oh god," I moaned. "I need another drink."



I figured we are dealing with teen sexual mores of the 90's, not 50's or 60's. Why wouldn't those who don't know Val believe they weren't sexually active? Shocked
So maybe Ellen misled me. The Bitch! Laughing

Sir Lee wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 19:23


As to Lisa and Travis being "tight:" I don't think so. They are friendly, sure, and Travis has done her favours in the past. But it doesn't follow that they are as tight as, say, even Tuck and Book (who isn't even a full-time Rat Boyz member). And Lisa did not volunteer information to him -- he had to get her drunk first. Also, on his becoming suspicious: OF COURSE he got. He knew (from Val, not Lisa) that Debbie and Val used to be in a relationship, and it ended badly. Ergo, any info coming from the ex should be suspected. If anything, this exchange proves that Travis and Lisa are NOT that tight; she mentions "still speaking" with Debbie -- if they were tight, he would know that Lisa and Debbie are VERY close. Also, she is bullshitting him royally.

Well, I guess the use of the word "tight" is relative. First, I don't see Travis as a schemer to directly corner someone and plying alcohol to elicit information. Ruins the Boy Scout image. Travis and Lisa had to have some relationship of being more than just acquaintances before a shy and quiet Travis would ask Lisa to arrange a date for him. For all we know, they could be first cousins. It would be more of a social situation where the booze was already flowing and the opportunity for the conversation of regarding Tuck ensued - and Travis got his info.
Sir Lee wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 19:23


As Maltor's quote points out, Debbie probably doesn't know much about Tuck's health problems. She probably guesses by implication that it's more serious than a mere hormonal imbalance -- and she may have noticed that his testes hadn't descended. But the other girls did NOT repeat to her the contents of the briefing.

The Tuck comment you quoted was about KELLY's problems, not his. And Debbie and Lisa weren't even in the conversation; he was referring about the other Pack girls having already too much clues about Kelly being lesbian, and that he wouldn't add to it.

As you stated, in this conversation, they were trying to get Tuck to indirectly tell Kelly's secret if he knew if it was true and he didn't want to play that game. Yes, the context of the quote was with regard to Kelly, but the conversational behaviour of the Pack was the purpose of my citing the quote. Tuck was narrating to the reader that members of the Pack had the ability to keep to the literal promise to not directly divulge information, but if they wanted some information to still be passed, they could structure the conversation so the recipient could figure out the nature of the secret.
I don't believe that any member of the Pack would intentionally hurt Tuck, but there are occasions where they may think they're helping by revealing parsed info to Lisa or Debbie. Debbie may not know all the details of Tuck's biology - but I would speculate someone would reveal to Debbie in the above manner that Tuck has an ovary.

As for whether Debbie would or wouldn't believe Tuck would be in a gay relationship, why should Debbie be surprised? Didn't Debbie have a ex-boyfriend who "turned gay" on her?

Cool Only that which is explicitly written by Ellen can be considered truth in the Tuck universe - all else by anyone is pure speculation.

Re: Tuck 109 [message #3401] Tue, 05 April 2005 00:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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lurker wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 20:42

Cool Only that which is explicitly written by Ellen can be considered truth in the Tuck universe - all else by anyone is pure speculation.

Not even that- Tuck is not the most reliable of narrators; we know Tuck doesn't always get the truth of the situation. Which is yet another part of what makes the story so interesting.
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3403] Tue, 05 April 2005 04:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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lurker wrote on Tue, 05 April 2005 00:42


I figured we are dealing with teen sexual mores of the 90's, not 50's or 60's. Why wouldn't those who don't know Val believe they weren't sexually active? Shocked
So maybe Ellen misled me. The Bitch! Laughing


The girls might. The boys might or might not, figuring Travis to be just bragging. However, LISA wouldn't be so quick to believe, because she KNOWS about Val's double life.

Quote:

Well, I guess the use of the word "tight" is relative. First, I don't see Travis as a schemer to directly corner someone and plying alcohol to elicit information. Ruins the Boy Scout image. Travis and Lisa had to have some relationship of being more than just acquaintances before a shy and quiet Travis would ask Lisa to arrange a date for him. For all we know, they could be first cousins. It would be more of a social situation where the booze was already flowing and the opportunity for the conversation of regarding Tuck ensued - and Travis got his info.


Well, this is how TRAVIS himself describes it:
18:37 14 Jul

He continued, not even acknowledging me, "Because, because it didn't make sense, and a lot of other stuff didn't make sense either. So, so I waited, and a couple of weeks later, I caught her at a party..."
*Oh no.*
I wanted to pass out, and I wanted to run like hell, but somehow I didn't do either.
I just sat there.
"She was getting drunk, and I got her more drunk, and then I took her home, and I asked her about you, out in the car. And she told me."
The whole world twirled, and I had to grab on to the edge of the seat to keep from spinning, and to remind me which way was down.
"She didn't remember it later," he said calmly. "I, I guess that, that she didn't tell you about it."


So, yes, he can be sneaky when he wants. In a way, it's a relief; that true-blue Boy Scout image is a bit too much. Also, don't forget the night he got drunk -- also not a very Boy-Scoutish thing to do. Travis, while bland compared to most of Tuck's friends, is not a saint.

By the way, the above quote clears up a point: that Lisa almost certainly doesn't know that Travis knows about Val's secret. This reinforces my point about Lisa doubting they went "all the way."

Quote:

As you stated, in this conversation, they were trying to get Tuck to indirectly tell Kelly's secret if he knew if it was true and he didn't want to play that game. Yes, the context of the quote was with regard to Kelly, but the conversational behaviour of the Pack was the purpose of my citing the quote. Tuck was narrating to the reader that members of the Pack had the ability to keep to the literal promise to not directly divulge information, but if they wanted some information to still be passed, they could structure the conversation so the recipient could figure out the nature of the secret.


No, the implcation here was not that people were trying to pass info without violating the letter of a promise; it was that by even admitting that one has info, one becomes vulnerable to indirect interrogation. Tuck refused to even admit knowing anything about Kelly's sexuality because, if he did, any reaction of his about this subject could be considered a clue, and with the massed Pack against him, he was afraid he might let slip more than he wished.

Of course, Debbie could use this indirect questioning technique to pry some info about Tuck's condition from the other Packettes; however, the nature of the desired info is much more complex in this case. In Kelly's case, it was a matter of "yes or no" -- Is Kelly a lesbian? In Tuck's case, the answer is fairly complex, and difficult to assemble from minor slips. As long as the Pack try to keep silent on the subject, nobody else, including Debbie, would be able to find out much.

Quote:

I don't believe that any member of the Pack would intentionally hurt Tuck, but there are occasions where they may think they're helping by revealing parsed info to Lisa or Debbie. Debbie may not know all the details of Tuck's biology - but I would speculate someone would reveal to Debbie in the above manner that Tuck has an ovary.


The quote Maltor found is quite clear about that -- the Packettes are not volunteering this information to Debbie.

Quote:

As for whether Debbie would or wouldn't believe Tuck would be in a gay relationship, why should Debbie be surprised? Didn't Debbie have a ex-boyfriend who "turned gay" on her?


Go back to what I ACTUALLY wrote. I just checked to see if I might have got the names mixed up, and I didn't. I'll wait.
...
Back already? OK, now, as you undoubtedly noticed, I doubted that LISA (not Debbie) would believe TRAVIS (not Tuck/Val) to be in a gay relationship. Puts a different slant on things, doesn't it?


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3406] Wed, 06 April 2005 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Brooke wrote on Sun, 03 April 2005 13:43

Anybody else getting worried about what sort of climax Ellen may be building towards with all this?

On the contrary, it looks as though Ellen may let Debbie get away with what she's plotting, instead of ending up with the National Guard surrounding the school, Dobson under house arrest and the coaches deputized to keep order on campus in classic prison guard style, which is where Debbie's make-sure-everyone-thinks-that-everybody-else-is-against-us rumor campaign seemed to me to be leading, especially after the school board got involved.

Don't overlook the fact that Debbie not only was trying to turn the attack on Tuck into a threat to all gifted students, females, musicians and minority groups; she was also trying to convince everyone that any counterattack or punishment would be staged against all the school's athletes and spirit group members -- especially the innocent ones, since the guilty were already being handled by the legal system. Apparently the idea is/was to make the latter group so concerned about being stigmatized as part of the problem that they'll loudly dissociate themselves from the evildoers and pitch into the tar-and-feather job against Kyle and company. Outside of the inconvenient question as to why anyone from the other side would trust them enough to let them help, it'd seem to me that if an athlete or spirit leader is told that the opposition is out to get him or her whether guilty or not, he or she is more likely to righteously resist, or even to start doing the things that they've been assumed to be guilty of, than to surrender or change sides.

And we haven't had the parents of the threatened kids -- and just about everybody is now officially a threatened kid -- assemble yet to play the role of the angry villagers with torches and pitchforks, led by some self-appointed spokesperson with his own agenda (and a contract with D&E Services?).

But for better or worse, after #109 it doesn't seem to me that Ellen's headed in that direction. Ms Raleigh's willing, apparently, to keep Dobson's rope coming in hopes, Dobson thinks, that he'll hang himself; Debbie's willing, after initiating a poster project that seemed almost primarily calculated to embarrass Dobson, to let him lead the relief effort, as long as he does it her way; Coach Grigsby's willing to sideline his offenders and lose games rather than risk forfeiting the rest of the season, not that either alternative's likely to get him a better coaching job next year.

Eric
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3407] Wed, 06 April 2005 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Hmm, let's NOT forget that Ellen has, from the start, proposed to write REAL people, not stereotypes. So, for instance, while a stereotyped football-uber-alles coach might try to defend his boys' "right" to bully, harrass, beat and abuse non-athletes, Grigsby, as a real person, might have limits to what he can stomach and overlook. And putting a boy in the UTI probably goes far beyond those.

As to his career prospects, well, at this point he is looking at being known as "the coach of that team of murderers," not to mention being named as defendant in a lawsuit involving the fostering of an unhealthy environment at school. The best he can do is try to help management (Dobson) to control the situation, in the hopes of showing good faith. Maybe he will have a bad season, but there's always next year.

I actually think Ms. Raleigh might have a nasty surprise ahead of her, if she tries to use Dobson as a scapegoat. The Tuckers have been talking to Dobson and seem to be at least not too angry at him. As soon as they calm down a bit more, and have a good talk with Tuck about the school environment, they might realize that removing Dobson would be the wrong move: Dobson has been actively trying to improve the environment -- you can see that from a number of things, from the revamped Field Day to the "surprise" fact that the Big/Little Brother/Sister pairings this year seemed to be actually well planned (minus the cheerleader intrusions, of course). And, even if Tuck does not return to McAllen, they have to think about Brian too -- Dobson might be the best shot for him to have an actually decent school.

Also, I would expect Bill and Sarah to dislike strongly any scapegoat manoeuvre by the board -- right after Tuck was hospitalized, for instance, Bill was already concentrating in findin the *real* culprits and lowering the cheerleaders to secondary targets status. He wouldn't be happy to see Dobson, who after all inherited a sick structure he was trying to fix, to be blamed for the incident when the ones who SHOULD have intervened years before (the school board itself) get away clean.

So, I wouldn't be surprised if when the time comes to negotiate a civil settlement with the school board, the Tuckers ask for a very *unexpected* set of conditions besides the money. Things like keeping Dobson and firing whoever hired Nickerson, for instance...

As to Debbie's campaign of propaganda, I'm not sure as to what she's really attempting here. It might be a sneaky way of "raising counscienceness" -- that is, to take people from the mindset of "as long as it's just some nerds who are being harrassed, it's not my problem" to "this has to stop, it might be ME someday." It might backfire, however, and create a war climate...


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3595] Fri, 27 May 2005 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
Messages: 197
Registered: May 2004
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Mike's conversation with Debbie to transcribe taps

Before she could get very upset, though, she realized something else. "Mike? Since we know who did, uh, who hurt Tuck, and they've arrested them, then, do you need the taps on these people? Tuck kind of indicated that the taps were hard to put in, but they were reusable?" Mike nodded. "So, um, do you think you could move'em someplace else?".

After reading this for the nth time it finally dawned on me that Debbie wanted the taps to be moved elsewhere to people other than Tuck's attackers, not collateral perpetrators to the attack. And Mike sort of knows where she's going with this. Therefore, Debbie is looking at a larger group she wants to tap to get damaging info for her propaganda campaign. Anyone with ideas who these people might be? School admin (does she know about Ms. Raleigh), or other students? It just looks like an explosion is about to happen here pointing to a new story direction for the environment at McAllen.
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3596] Fri, 27 May 2005 19:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Registered: August 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Senior Member
lurker wrote on Fri, 27 May 2005 12:52

Mike's conversation with Debbie to transcribe taps

Before she could get very upset, though, she realized something else. "Mike? Since we know who did, uh, who hurt Tuck, and they've arrested them, then, do you need the taps on these people? Tuck kind of indicated that the taps were hard to put in, but they were reusable?" Mike nodded. "So, um, do you think you could move'em someplace else?".

After reading this for the nth time it finally dawned on me that Debbie wanted the taps to be moved elsewhere to people other than Tuck's attackers, not collateral perpetrators to the attack. And Mike sort of knows where she's going with this. Therefore, Debbie is looking at a larger group she wants to tap to get damaging info for her propaganda campaign. Anyone with ideas who these people might be? School admin (does she know about Ms. Raleigh), or other students? It just looks like an explosion is about to happen here pointing to a new story direction for the environment at McAllen.



My thoughts are that she wants to tap the folks that her info indicates are either likely to be future threats or "gossip nodes".

Ms. Raliegh isn't really a good candidate, because she is likely to either be using several phones, or reporting in person. Not due to security concerns, but due to the nature of her job.

BTW, back in 1997 I suspect it'd be well within Tuck's capabilities to tap a cell phone. They aren't that secure. And were less so then. Trouble is, I can't see da Boyz having had the need to do so.

And, alas, the phones at MacAllen (at least in the offices) and those at the district offices are likely on multi-line trunks. Which the existing tapping gear will not work on. Not unless they can plant them inside the offices, and maybe not even then if the phone system is a "key system" or digital PBX.
Re: Tuck 109 [message #3600] Sun, 29 May 2005 12:48 Go to previous message
Cate
Messages: 78
Registered: September 2002
Member
All of the conjectures about Deb's wanting the taps moved to further a plan of her own may be correct. However, when I read that same part of the chapter, the impression I was left with was that the taps made her nervous. I wonder if she isn't involved with some of the tapped students in some unrelated venture. She may want the taps moved to avoid disclosure of something embarrassing; but unrelated to Tuck's beating. Just a thought.
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