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Tuck #111 [message #4022] Sun, 07 August 2005 17:32 Go to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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It's up. I may go back to bed again.


Ellen
nosig
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4023] Sun, 07 August 2005 18:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Just finished reading it and mirrored on BC. Chock full of interesting stuff. No spoilers but the title fits. Smile

Looking forward to the discussion here when more people have read it.

Thanks, Ellen.

- Erin
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4024] Sun, 07 August 2005 20:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cate
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Do da phrase "Slambang" ring a bell?
Wow, more new plotlines in this one, than in all of the preceding three. Still letting it all percolate; but I have to ask "Is Debbie going to be able to warn DaBoyz." Or, are they going to make the next incursion without knowing about hourly police patrols?
And, is there actually going to be a riot?
Cate

"There are two schools of thought on Nostradamus: either (1) he had supernatural powers which enabled him to prophesy the future with uncanny accuracy, or (2) he did for bullshit what Stonehenge did for rocks."
-Cecil Adams, The Straight Dope
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4026] Sun, 07 August 2005 22:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Ok, this is good. Even if we're still not back to Tuck-perspective, this is quite clearly a new chapter. (In a lot of ways, 104-110 are one _long_ chapter, even if it is broken up into many more parts.) Lots and lots of stuff happening. Kim's outburst is perhaps the most ominous, at least from my perspective.
More later.
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4027] Sun, 07 August 2005 23:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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I can't blame Dan *at all* for his fear at learning a certain pair have teamed up.

My reaction was equally scared. And then as I got farther into the story something in the back of my head came up with a good line about it:

"Mommy, make the scary ladies go away...."

Ellen, you are *evil*. Possibly more evil than that pair. Which is saying a lot.

I'll be putting it up on my site as soon as I do a couple of re-reads to get a guess at the start and end times for the menu.

[Updated on: Sun, 07 August 2005 23:33]

Re: Tuck #111 [message #4028] Mon, 08 August 2005 05:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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OtherEric wrote on Sun, 07 August 2005 22:30

Kim's outburst is perhaps the most ominous, at least from my perspective.

When I read her scenes I was thinking about Karma and how payback is a bitch. She is in one way or another either directly responsible or a highly contributing factor for all the shit that has been heaped on Tuck since they learned about his Biology. Let's face it, she's the one who contacted Debbie. Mike and the others know that and until she gets a clue and realizes that it's her fucking loose lips and barging in where she doesn't fucking belong that are causing them to be so secretive around her she's not going to change. I'm waiting for the scene where she pushes the group too far and someway has to smack some sense into her... Hopefully it's Jill and Kathy... While George, Dan and Book restrain Mike and the other girls and all the littles look on to see the consequences of her actions...

What can I say... I've had a love-hate thing for Kim since they ambushed Val and Travis the night before the camping trip... Right now it's moved in the hate-HATE range.
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4029] Mon, 08 August 2005 07:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
brudin  is currently offline brudin
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hiya all,

someone know with his the korean chick Sally? she was in other chapitre or it's her first appear?

P.S: thank you hellen and i wish you a speedy recovery.

[Updated on: Mon, 08 August 2005 07:25]


Brudin, palanain de Moradin.
(Moradin's paladwarf, cool joke in french Wink )
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4031] Mon, 08 August 2005 18:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Josea  is currently offline Josea
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OtherEric wrote on Sun, 07 August 2005 19:30

...
Kim's outburst is perhaps the most ominous
...

Do you mean this outburst?
Quote:


"Um, hey, Kim," Jody said hesitantly, and Kim and the other girl she was with turned around. Kim's face immediately lost all expression, and Jody's stomach lurched, but she managed to grab the envelope and pull it out. "Um, I wanted, um, to know, if you could give this to, uh, to Tucker?"
Kim stared in shock at the envelope for a second, then snarled, "I am NOT her goddamned POSTMAN!" and stomped away rapidly.

This could be trouble, however, Jody might be too messed up right not to notice that Kim said her instead of his.
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4032] Mon, 08 August 2005 18:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Josea  is currently offline Josea
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brudin wrote on Mon, 08 August 2005 04:22

hiya all,

someone know with his the korean chick Sally? she was in other chapitre or it's her first appear?

P.S: thank you hellen and i wish you a speedy recovery.

Sally is Amanda's Little Sister (not actual sister). See chapter 91.

P.S. Who is Hellen?

Re: Tuck #111 [message #4033] Mon, 08 August 2005 18:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tabercil  is currently offline Tabercil
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brudin wrote on Mon, 08 August 2005 07:22

hiya all,

someone know with his the korean chick Sally? she was in other chapitre or it's her first appear?




Fast n dirty, I think it's her first appearance. A quick search using Google Desktop for Sally or Korea didn't turn up anything elsewhere in mainstream Tuck.

And let me echo the general admiration shown by the other posters for this new chapter. The prior chapters after the beating occured was Ellen laying down the tracks; now we can hear the whistle of the express train and the next chapter should see it coming in sight. The chapter just full of juicy signs that things are definately percolating...

  1. The cheerleaders' attempted counter-postering (how'd they get inside?).

  2. Kim's "new" attitude, which I agree is due to her resentment at being kept out of the loop on the Pack/Boyz's plans. Now whether this is fair/reasonable is an open debate... I think she should be in the loop to some extent, and their exclusion of her will come back to haunt them.

  3. Deb and Sarah teaming up. Now am I the only one who thinks that this is one of the forgotten portents of the coming of the Apocalypse? Smile

  4. Dobson clearly acknowledges in this episode that he knows that Debbie's up to something, and that she's behind the postering... the only reason why I think he hasn't asked why the poster campaign is because he wants plausible deniability if he's officially asked what he knew about the posters.
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4034] Mon, 08 August 2005 18:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Josea wrote on Mon, 08 August 2005 15:10

Quote:

Kim stared in shock at the envelope for a second, then snarled, "I am NOT her goddamned POSTMAN!" and stomped away rapidly.

This could be trouble, however, Jody might be too messed up right not to notice that Kim said her instead of his.


If Kim is later confronted for verification, Kim could always say that she had said "I am NOT Tucker's goddamned POSTMAN!" and that they'd misheard what she said - Jill could back her up. What Ellen didn't explicitly write was how many people were within earshot of the outburst.

[Updated on: Mon, 08 August 2005 18:42]

Re: Tuck #111 [message #4035] Mon, 08 August 2005 21:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quoth  is currently offline Quoth
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Kim isn't the only one making mistakes, either:

Quote:


"It IS that big a deal!" Kelly insisted. "Look, Tuck told me at
the beginning of the year, she said that if they start doing this stuff
now, they'll do worse later. An' look what happened to him."



This one was only to James, so it's a little safer, but he still doesn't know about Val.

Quote:


1. The cheerleaders' attempted counter-postering (how'd they get inside?).



Looks like coach Miranda came up with the idea of the posters and they did them on her computer. Probably during or just after school. So they probably aren't snooping around in the dark.

Sally has shown up before, but this is the first mention of her being Korean, I think.
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4037] Tue, 09 August 2005 01:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Amy!  is currently offline Amy!
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Tabercil wrote on Mon, 08 August 2005 18:37



  1. The cheerleaders' attempted counter-postering (how'd they get inside?).



Aww, come on! They're legal, moral and nonfattening! They put their posters up between two-thirty (middle of practice, given time to create poster) and four-thirty. With God and Everybody watching.

Quote:



  1. Kim's "new" attitude, which I agree is due to her resentment at being kept out of the loop on the Pack/Boyz's plans. Now whether this is fair/reasonable is an open debate... I think she should be in the loop to some extent, and their exclusion of her will come back to haunt them.



Back to haunt her, or back to haunt them?

Quote:



  1. Deb and Sarah teaming up. Now am I the only one who thinks that this is one of the forgotten portents of the coming of the Apocalypse? Smile



Oh yes. Definitely. The only one. Absolutely. If anyone asks, I definitely didn't suggest this, okay? Okay? Hey, are you listening?

No, really! See, it was Tabercil! Not me! See?

Quote:



  1. Dobson clearly acknowledges in this episode that he knows that Debbie's up to something, and that she's behind the postering... the only reason why I think he hasn't asked why the poster campaign is because he wants plausible deniability if he's officially asked what he knew about the posters.



Think? But ... we heard the initial part of the telephone conversation, on Tuesday night, right? We didn't hear all of it. Remember Mike, in the hospital, talking with Bill? "Allied, sir." Now vetted by Sarah. Sarah thinks about Dobson (visible in the story). Would she have missed a followup, to find out how trustworthy Dobson is?

That said ...

Debbie and Tuck have the goods on Dobson. Remember LA? Tuck's "goods" work out to MAD. If Debbie isn't (any longer) known as Tuck's squeeze, then there's no mutuality between her and Dobson. She has his balls in a vice. In nylon, shrouded by a skirt.

There's no evidence that she's needed to use that, as yet. But if Dobson's as smart as Tuck/Valerie seems to think (Da Boyz wanted him for homeroom, remember), then she wouldn't need to be blatant.

What's she after though? She tells Sarah (and Lisa). But not us. What is it?

Amy!

[Updated on: Tue, 09 August 2005 01:37]

Re: Tuck #111 [message #4038] Tue, 09 August 2005 02:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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How about the 'her' being a remark to Jill and referring to Jody? It's a minor slip though, and mostly, just more proof that many people internally think of Tuck as female.

- Erin
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4040] Tue, 09 August 2005 03:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Tabercil wrote on Mon, 08 August 2005 15:37

Deb and Sarah teaming up. Now am I the only one who thinks that this is one of the forgotten portents of the coming of the Apocalypse? Smile


First, let's pull Tuck's dream in the last paragraph....
From Chap 111

......but he grabbed the knife Ashlee had discarded and came up and the look on her face was so funny he was laughing HARD as he reached out for her hair with one hand and slit her throat with the other. Which gave him enough room to really dance.


Is this a LUCID dream or not? If this was lucid - Tuck is having fun in his head - dancing like a jester. If it wasn't a lucid dream - has Tuck finally cracked and is about to do a Postal/Columbine number on some kids at McAllen? Has Tuck gone to the dark side and become "Darth Vader"?
We've been looking at all the movements of everyone but Tuck.
From Chap 111

"Cease fire cease fire!" Mr. Tucker intoned over the radio. "Good work, the both of you... except, Eugene, we're not supposed to be using the shotgun on the pistol range; it eats the cardboard up." Mike looked at Tuck in time to watch Tuck make a gesture indicating something to do with his rear end.

This should be a standing rule Tuck hasn't forgotten. But Tuck impulsively did it anyways. I'm surprised Bill didn't punish Tuck for it (That's $100 Tuck - I gotta square it with the range manager!)
How about this for some whimsical future chapter:
It's the next McAllen HS Halloween Dance in the gym, hosted by the Jocks and Cheerleaders in a conciliatory gesture to repair damage done by Deb's black propaganda. Valerie is dressed up similar to Tuck's first Halloween in drag but looking more like Pam Anderson's Barb Wire character with a duster overcoat. This time, everyone recognizes it's Tuck who's Valerie. Val starts gettin jeers from some students in the crowd. She pulls out a small box with a button and presses it. All the exits and doors slam shut. Val pulls out some automatic weapons and starts cleaning house...the gym burns to the ground. Val's body is never found - just some personal effects.
Strange enough, none of Da Boyz nor Pack members had attended the dance. All of them had been waiting for Tuck to show up with some special hors doeuvres he'd promise to make for them at Sabrina's house to celebrate Halloween and watch the movie Carrie... Evil or Very Mad

Looks like Tuck wants his revenge - personally ...
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4041] Tue, 09 August 2005 04:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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lurker wrote on Tue, 09 August 2005 08:34

First, let's pull Tuck's dream in the last paragraph....
From Chap 111

......but he grabbed the knife Ashlee had discarded and came up and the look on her face was so funny he was laughing HARD as he reached out for her hair with one hand and slit her throat with the other. Which gave him enough room to really dance.


Is this a LUCID dream or not? If this was lucid - Tuck is having fun in his head - dancing like a jester. If it wasn't a lucid dream - has Tuck finally cracked and is about to do a Postal/Columbine number on some kids at McAllen? Has Tuck gone to the dark side and become "Darth Vader"?


I think the former. Tuck's healing. It's an empowerment thing...

lurker

From Chap 111

"Cease fire cease fire!" Mr. Tucker intoned over the radio. "Good work, the both of you... except, Eugene, we're not supposed to be using the shotgun on the pistol range; it eats the cardboard up." Mike looked at Tuck in time to watch Tuck make a gesture indicating something to do with his rear end.



I was surprised Bill had them out on the range with Tuck in his current condition (ie: being carried everywhere, wired up to stuff), and Mike for that matter. Maybe it's partly practical, in readiness of an imagined attack on the house by hostiles, or an opportunity to do such a drill when someone's ill, so they can do it for real in that condition if they need to; but I think it's more that it's empowering for Tuck. Bill probably sees it as a way for Tuck to regain a sense of personal power and confidence.


Rachel
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4042] Tue, 09 August 2005 18:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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rachel.greenham wrote on Tue, 09 August 2005 01:51

lurker wrote on Tue, 09 August 2005 08:34

From Chap 111

"Cease fire cease fire!" Mr. Tucker intoned over the radio. "Good work, the both of you... except, Eugene, we're not supposed to be using the shotgun on the pistol range; it eats the cardboard up." Mike looked at Tuck in time to watch Tuck make a gesture indicating something to do with his rear end.



I was surprised Bill had them out on the range with Tuck in his current condition (ie: being carried everywhere, wired up to stuff), and Mike for that matter. Maybe it's partly practical, in readiness of an imagined attack on the house by hostiles, or an opportunity to do such a drill when someone's ill, so they can do it for real in that condition if they need to; but I think it's more that it's empowering for Tuck. Bill probably sees it as a way for Tuck to regain a sense of personal power and confidence.



I suspect it's all of the above. A way to make them feel better ("see! we can still waste 'em") partly good practice at shooting things up while ill, and empowerment and *fun*.

Re: Tuck #111 [message #4045] Thu, 11 August 2005 02:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Sure looks like George is being set up as the next illness casualty here. I wonder if Sarah Tucker would accept field command for the next night op? Things get interesting if SHE'S apprehended putting up pro-Nazi posters at McAllen...
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4049] Thu, 11 August 2005 13:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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No, at this point it would be either Dan (the natural choice) or (gasp) BRIAN!

No, hear me out... recent chapters have shown a lot of character-growth for Brian. Most recently, in this chapter, he was showing a bit more leadership than George -- for instance, by suggesting that he should be posted as sentry.

The other candidates are Dan, Book and Jill. Jill is WAY inexperienced. Book is probably less "senior" than Dan, being a kinda "part-time" Rat Boy. The obvious choice would be Dan.

However... the most *probable* course of events is that they won't stage other incursions for a while. In the immediate future, there's the matter of the police watching the school. I HOPE Debbie manages to warn Dan about it...

At full strenght, the Rat Boyz probably could do an incursion even under police watch. But not dragging a rank newbie (Jill) and a reserve member unfamiliar with the terrain (Brian), while depleted from their master tactician (Mike) and one of their best infiltratores and master hacker (Tuck).

Even without the police, George falling sick would probably be too much to stage a successful raid. Remember that George is the main lockpicker of the gang... Dan or Book MIGHT be adequate at this task too, but then, they might not.

By the way, Ellen in this chapter confirmed that Book was part of the incursions -- thus ending all the speculation going around that the others might not fully trust him, or that he might have divided loyalties regarding Tuck and the jocks and such.

Another interesting thing I picked up is that Debbie is STRONGLY intimidated by Sarah. This didn't stop her from confronting Sarah in the aftermath of chapter #100. Once more, I'm inclined to infer that Debbie's feeling for Tuck might be way deeper than she lets show. (More on Tuck, Debbie and Sarah later, have to leave in a rush right now...)


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4052] Fri, 12 August 2005 03:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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sluggo wrote on Thu, 11 August 2005 21:30

Is Dobson letting Debbie do her thing because its what he thinks is best, or is he afraid that if she doesn't get her way that she will blackmail him? Debbie holds his career in her cute little hands there. Dobson also has to be very carful around Sarah. If (or when) she finds out that he knew about Val before she did....well I'm sure that they might find some of the school when it lands in the next county.


I think Dobson is relatively safe from Sarah *if* he gets a chance to tell her that Val had something on him.

Besides, the only way I see Sarah finding out is if Debbie talks. Tuck won't.
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4055] Fri, 12 August 2005 05:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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sluggo wrote on Fri, 12 August 2005 00:30

Is Dobson letting Debbie do her thing because its what he thinks is best, or is he afraid that if she doesn't get her way that she will blackmail him? Debbie holds his career in her cute little hands there. Dobson also has to be very carful around Sarah. If (or when) she finds out that he knew about Val before she did....well I'm sure that they might find some of the school when it lands in the next county.




I think it's because he wants to help kids like Tuck and keep his job. He knew how bad some students, like Tuck and friends, had it under the tyrannical reign of Nickerson and he's tried to correct a lot of the ingrained attitudes that Nickerson allowed to fester for far too long. He's only had a few months, far too short a time to make any real progress, but we know he is trying. One of the first things he did was reverse the decision that was going to make Ellen repeat all of her Sophomore year. Plus he gave Tuck an out of gym class by stating all he needed was a note from a doctor or parent. You can bet Nickerson would have fought them every step of the way or demanded more detailed (and embarrassing) information before he finally relented (If he did, which I doubt). Then when it came time for field day he went to Tuck and his friends to come up with ideas to make it more inclusive of all students instead of allowing it to be the usual "Look at the Jocks and Cheerleaders and Bow before them in supplication Day."

Bottom line is Debbie appears to have came up with a plan that would allow those reforms to occur much sooner than Dobson could on his own. She needed to get him to go along with the plan, because otherwise he could wind up reacting in a manner that would get him fired. Since Debbie knows what Dobson is like, and that there are most likely other people like Nickerson in the school system that might be brought in to replace him, she decided to bring him into the fold as it were to insure that he is still around when the dust settles. Keep the devil you know close, verses a new unknown devil later on down the road.

If She was using her knowledge of Betty to blackmail him, I don't think she'd be involving the others in her plans like she has. Blackmail only works as long as you are the only one holding incriminating information. If Tuck told the others why he thinks Dobson is suddenly doing every little thing Debbie says, she'd loose her leverage over him. Now if he had continued the tyrannical reign of Nickerson then I can believe Debbie would use her knowledge of Betty, but as a means to get him fired, not keep him around.
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4056] Fri, 12 August 2005 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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As promised, some more thoughts on Tuck, Debbie and Sarah -- in no particular order, and those may or may not fit as part of a larger idea:

- Sarah is a very forceful person, which scares a lot of people. So is Debbie. Tuck fell hard for Debbie. Oedipus, anyone?

- Lots of people tend to dismiss the Tuck/Debbie relationship as "past and done with," assuming that as his "Val" side gets stronger he no longer will be interested in women. I don't think it's that simple -- I think that Tu/Val may ultimately be bisexual (as is Debbie, for that matter). People are complicated, and trying to pigeonhole them is a sure way to be mistaken. This is not "boy-meets-girl" Hollywood scripts -- it's more like Terry Moore's comic book "Strangers in Paradise." (If you haven't heard of it, check the site -- http://www.strangersinparadise.com). Katchoo considers herself lesbian, carries a torch for Francine but once admitted she was falling in love with David. Francine is straight, but found out that her relationship with Katchoo went far beyond friendship. Tambi projects this "musclebound dyke" aura, but when she lets down her guard with a man she turns out to be a nympho. Complicated people. And as fun as Tuck.

- Another parallel came to mind (this one mostly in fun) another day when I was watching "Malcolm in the Middle." There was this episode when a neighborhood girl manipulates the boys no end, even making Malcolm and Reese each believe the other one is gay. She was thinking she was smart enough to manipulate the mother too. It turned out that the mother was wise to her plots from the start, and ended up "punishing" the girl by forbidding her to visit the house again -- with the understanding that this would the boys would sneak her in to defy the mother. So, the girl ended up a kind of "apprentice" to the mother. I wonder if the Sarah/Debbie relationship might be going this way, with Debbie getting advanced lessons from Sarah?


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4057] Fri, 12 August 2005 16:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Mayby it's just me, but I don't think Sarah is as smart as she thinks she is. I think Debbie could win on clever; Sarah just has more resources. (I'm not sure why I think that, but I do. Part of it may be I see Sarah's temper getting in the way too easily.)
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4058] Fri, 12 August 2005 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Sir Lee wrote on Fri, 12 August 2005 09:08

- Sarah is a very forceful person, which scares a lot of people. So is Debbie. Tuck fell hard for Debbie. Oedipus, anyone?


As I read Sarah's interrogation of Debbie - I was thinking just the the same thing, it seems that both of them (Deb and Sarah) have similar personalities and a relationship of complementary personalities between Tuck & Debbie resulted. What we don't know is what was Debbie's relationship with Sarah before that fateful Halloween - they appeared very familiar with each other then, which I think fuels a reason for Debbie's fear of Sarah. It's funny since Debbie's mom is a cop and it looks like Deb can manipulate (or is deceive the better term?) her mom fairly easily as compared to Sarah. How many parents are willing let their children have legal majority?
sluggo wrote on Thu, 11 August 2005 21:30

Is Dobson letting Debbie do her thing because its what he thinks is best, or is he afraid that if she doesn't get her way that she will blackmail him?

I believe Dobson is not stupid. Also, remember at the convention Betty wouldn't let Valerie take her picture? It takes some political skill to move up in any administration. We see that Ms. Raleigh is antagonistic towards Dobson - she's probably a watchdog for some other side to keep an eye on Dobson. Unless he was appointed principal purely by seniority, I'm willing to bet he has his own allies in the school board and administration. We don't know how clever he is nor the politics driving that game - but I'd say he's very, and there is one. I agree with Maltor's comments of Dobson being different from the previous administration. Dobson probably has his own plan of gentrifying the school to have a higher tolerance of diversity. Debbie's given him an avenue to achieve that in either scenario of failure or success of Debbie's plan. His nervousness is the uncertainty of the situation. But the fact that he calls up Debbie and warns her in front of Ms. Raleigh indicates he understands subtlespeak well and he's trying to manage some aspect of the game in play. Otherwise, why not wait till Ms. Raleigh left and be more direct with Debbie over the phone? Something's afoot there, Dr. Watson!
From chap 111

"How are they getting in here to put those posters up?" Arlene Raleigh complained. She'd come back with him, after his very unwelcome lunch meeting with parts of the school board. Parents had begun calling.

I interpreted that either a. Dobson was called to an emergency lunch meeting to appraise them of the situation with the posters, Tuck, and the arrests, or
b. he showed up at a meeting that Ms. Raleigh did not expect him to attend.
If it was a., Dobson has only been principal for 7 weeks of school session so it would be a stretch (athough possible) to hoist all blame on him. He might have been called there to be warned and that he needs to do something fast.
Or if it was b., a possible scenario is he attended a lunch meeting uninvited because someone who's watching his back told him there was a discussion about him and the school. Wouldn't it be interesting that Dobson is a member of his own version of Da Boyz or the pack embedded in the school admin and now they're making their move? Surprised
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4060] Sat, 13 August 2005 06:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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lurker wrote on Fri, 12 August 2005 19:10

...Debbie's relationship with Sarah before that fateful Halloween - they appeared very familiar with each other then, which I think fuels a reason for Debbie's fear of Sarah.
Seems to me we've had some comments from Debbie's POV recently indicating that she had no idea about Sarah's temper at that time.

lurker,continued

It's funny since Debbie's mom is a cop and it looks like Deb can manipulate (or is deceive the better term?) her mom fairly easily as compared to Sarah. How many parents are willing [to] let their children have legal majority?
There's been lots of discussion here wondering whether Helen Carstairs knows as little about Debbie's activities as Debbie presumably thinks she does. But Debbie's legal emancipation does bring up questions: it was presented to us as Debbie's determination to pay her own way, but it does of course work the other way too: Helen's presumably not liable for debts (or legal liabilities, if Debbie or D&E get sued) that Debbie's activities cause. If Helen knew Debbie planned something (or had something ongoing) that meant trouble, emancipation might have been their way of preparing for contingencies.

lurker,continued

Unless [Dobson] was appointed principal purely by seniority, I'm willing to bet he has his own allies in the school board and administration. We don't know how clever he is nor the politics driving that game - but I'd say he's very, and there is one.
Interesting take. You're most likely right about him not becoming principal by seniority; remember that he was assistant dean previously, which means there was at least one person (the dean) ahead of him administratively at the school, and even if the dean had retired or taken a job elsewhere, Dobson would still be at least one level below people elsewhere in the district who'd presumably be considered for the opening. (It's possible, I suppose, that nobody higher up wanted the job after all the rumors that must have accompanied Nickerson's departure. But that doesn't seem all that likely to me: it's still a suburban school without apparent racial or gang problems, and it'd seem to me that a rising school administrator would look at Nickerson's failure as a challenge to him rather than a threat.)

But what we've seen of Dobson's thoughts don't indicate that he's expecting help from downtown, or that he has his own posse backing him up. I think we'd know that by now if it were the case.

As for the "very unwelcome lunch meeting with parts of the school board", it's the meeting, not Dobson's presence, that's unwelcome, so I can't see it as something to which he showed up uninvited.

Eric
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4062] Sat, 13 August 2005 10:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Sir Lee wrote on Fri, 12 August 2005 17:08

Tambi projects this "musclebound dyke" aura, but when she lets down her guard with a man she turns out to be a nympho.

Actually not a 'nymphomaniac' (term is now deprecated, BTW, in serious psych), as IIRC she's with one partner. 'Enthusiastic' is a better term... as is possibly 'expression of previously repressed feelings/desires'.

And definitely go check out Strangers In Paradise.


Ellen
nosig
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4063] Sat, 13 August 2005 10:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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lurker wrote on Fri, 12 August 2005 23:10


If it was a., Dobson has only been principal for 7 weeks of school session so it would be a stretch (athough possible) to hoist all blame on him.


Hmmm... I have to disagree. As far as the school board knows, during the Nickerson days they didn't have much in the way of school violence -- Ellen's rape happened outside school grounds, for instance, and Nickerson's apparently ignored complaints from students -- meaning that they never were logged. The worst they knew about was related to pranks, like the April First one (which, by its refinements, didn't need a Sherlock Holmes to deduce that the culprits were probably among the geek element).

Remember that Nickerson was fired NOT because of job performance, but for "conduct unbecoming" -- he got into the newspapers as charged for assault & battery. As far as the board knew, he was doing a "fine" job as principal.

So, if you get the same (incomplete) info the board has, you get this picture:
1- Nickerson days: geeks doing pranks, mostly.
2- Dobson days: jocks beat geek into UTI.

In this light, it MIGHT look like that geeks had relative freedom during the Nickerson days, but after Dobson took over, the jocks felt empowered enough to beat up geeks. Just the reverse of the truth, but that's what you can deduce from incomplete data...

Sure Dobson will try to explain what was REALLY going on, but well, being that he would be defending his own job, his testimony will be taken with a lot of salt.

Even if the board does not believe Dobson is actually to blame, he might be used as a goat -- by firing him, the board keeps the appearance of doing something about the situation.

In the end, Dobson's staying on the job will depend heavily on lobbying by the parents -- especially Tuck's parents.


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4083] Tue, 16 August 2005 09:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Re-reading the chapter, I'm struck again by the Sarah/Debbie teamup.

And I'm praying for a couple of things:

First, that the quit working together once the "crisis" is resolved.

Second, that they *never* "go to war" against each other.

Either is apt to result in the "end of the world as we know it" to quote a song.

Oh yeah, Dan's thought about the two of them being exponentially evil? I think it's more like they are a couple of sub-critical masses of fissionable.

Apart they are dangerous, especially if you are close to them and double especially if you are something that "reflects" things back at them.

But put them together and the results are almost unimaginably beyond anything you'd get from them seperately.

We are just seeing the *start* of the neutron cascade.

And I think I'll drop the metaphor before *it* blows up on me. Smile
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4112] Mon, 22 August 2005 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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It just occured to me that certain Pack members are "assuming facts not in evidence".

Specifically, that Tuck's parents would react badly to a card addressed to Valerie.

True, I can see them not wanting to take the risk. But *we* don't have a lot of evidence about this either.

We know that they were upset about Tuck lying. And about the potential legal problems from the babysitting. And then there's the danger & ID problems.

But we don't know how they feel about Val.

There is some evidence that Bill is conflicted about Tuck being gay, and Sarah is supportive of it.

But other than the *problems* it could result in, I don't recall a single thing one way or the other about it except for asking if Tuck wanted to be a girl.

[Updated on: Mon, 22 August 2005 12:39]

Re: Tuck #111 [message #4184] Mon, 26 September 2005 22:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
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Location: North Texas
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Brooke wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 08:19

Re-reading the chapter, I'm struck again by the Sarah/Debbie teamup.

And I'm praying for a couple of things:

First, that the quit working together once the "crisis" is resolved.

Second, that they *never* "go to war" against each other.

Either is apt to result in the "end of the world as we know it" to quote a song.

Or the beginning of a new era. . one is dangerous two is stronger still. . there is power in unity, also consider that together they might keep each other in check and balance.

Oh yeah, Dan's thought about the two of them being exponentially evil? I think it's more like they are a couple of sub-critical masses of fissionable.

Apart they are dangerous, especially if you are close to them and double especially if you are something that "reflects" things back at them.

But put them together and the results are almost unimaginably beyond anything you'd get from them seperately.

We are just seeing the *start* of the neutron cascade.

And I think I'll drop the metaphor before *it* blows up on me. Smile


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4185] Mon, 26 September 2005 22:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
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Brooke wrote on Mon, 22 August 2005 11:39

It just occured to me that certain Pack members are "assuming facts not in evidence".

Specifically, that Tuck's parents would react badly to a card addressed to Valerie.

Well considering that both parents, friends and family know of Valarie, perhaps but if Tuck recieves mutiple cards, flowers etc. for Valarie it should tell the parents something. They have Seen Valarie in action. One parent was astounded the other unable to cope with the reality that it was a lot more than just dress up.

True, I can see them not wanting to take the risk. But *we* don't have a lot of evidence about this either.

We know that they were upset about Tuck lying. And about the potential legal problems from the babysitting. And then there's the danger & ID problems.

As far as ID we do not truely know what Tuck's birth certificate says. Depending on issuing State it could say intersexed or could have issued both a make and female birth certificate. Some states issue birth certificates that do not state gender only name. Tuck's partial disclosure of his being Valarie is indeed considered a lie as it is not the full truth.

But we don't know how they feel about Val.

There is some evidence that Bill is conflicted about Tuck being gay, and Sarah is supportive of it.

Being intersexed and being gay/lesbian/straight is a matter of perspective of the one passing judgement. As Tuck is not a genetic male as far as I can see but raised as such one tends to try to live up to the expectations of ones parents.

But other than the *problems* it could result in, I don't recall a single thing one way or the other about it except for asking if Tuck wanted to be a girl.


The parential figures have yet to come up with that question, but they are in denial as to what they see and know for fact for the moment. It will take time for them to accept the fact that they or the doctor's may have been in error in trying to raise Tuck as male. It can possibly hit them like a mallet when they reach the realization or they may continue to live in denial of the truth of the reality.


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4186] Tue, 27 September 2005 00:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Vicki wrote on Mon, 26 September 2005 23:19

As far as ID we do not truely know what Tuck's birth certificate says. Depending on issuing State it could say intersexed or could have issued both a make and female birth certificate. Some states issue birth certificates that do not state gender only name. Tuck's partial disclosure of his being Valarie is indeed considered a lie as it is not the full truth.


Yes, we don't know. But... the state can only put on the birth certificate the information which has been submitted. I suppose there is a lot of variation, but I'm willing to bet that in most cases the hospital will supply the necessary paperwork for a birth certificate as a matter of course -- which means that the most likely source for the "sex" field would be the hospital. That means, the same doctors who performed "corrective" surgery on Tuck without disclosing it to the parents. It would be a good bet they didn't put "intersexed" in the paperwork for the birth certificate either.

And anyway, the standard procedure states take with intersexed children *now* isn't really relevant; what really matters (if it matters at all -- see above) is the procedure around 1981, when Tuck was born.

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck #111 [message #4189] Wed, 28 September 2005 04:07 Go to previous message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
Messages: 684
Registered: September 2002
Senior Member
May I inject a note of realism here?
{like you can stop me...}

If Eugene Tucker's birth certificate had said anything other than "Male", don't you think his parents would have noticed? And, possibly, complained? ("He's got a PENIS! Why are you calling him a GIRL?! We HAVE a girl already and she DOESN'T have one!")
But DEFINITELY they would have NOTICED before now, sixteen years into his life...


Ellen
nosig
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