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EGS: Fonts [message #5364] Sat, 22 September 2007 12:52 Go to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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<whine> Not the font and type size debate again... </whine>

Yep. Right now, I'm contemplating Garamond 11pt... Charis SIL is another possible contender.

I like OCR A Extended for the timestamps ONLY; seems to be the right feel, like a digital clock.

I have at least three hundred - that's three hundred - handwriting fonts available; I could easily set in a few pieces as "handwritten" notes. The note Tuck put on his door in #29 comes to mind, as does a note Sabrina "just" wrote in the parts I haven't released yet.
(the idea of putting the entire book as a more-than-usually-legible handwriting font has crossed my mind, again and again, but I'm sure I'd be severely beaten for this; it's just an evil I have to fight against)

Note that using Microsoft fonts is RIGHT OUT; their EULA on their fonts (of course they have a EULA on their fonts) seems to indicate I'd have to include copyright and EULA statements. 'Tis not worth fucking with. Linux's Open Font Initiative is keen; also I believe Adobe has sort of released their fonts for what I'd be doing - Adobe is clear, I'm just a touch fuzzy AND I do not wish to repeat their entire license or the relevant sections here. On the other hand, I'm not paying $40 for an Adobe font unless it enslaves anyone who reads it to MY will; nor will I use any pirate copies.


Ellen
nosig
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5368] Sat, 22 September 2007 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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I won't comment on *specific* fonts (except to note that Garamond is a very nice font with a long track record), but...

Regarding the issue of how *many* fonts to use and which *kind* of fonts, generally speaking, to use:

My design teacher in Publishing school discouraged us from using too many fonts. He said it makes the whole thing look messy. He suggested trying to limit oneself to using ONE serif font and ONE sans-serif font, and using typographical variations to achieve further desired variations.

As for other fonts... well, I would have to try the OCR font you mentioned. Maybe it works, if it's not *too* distracting. Typography is at its best when it's not noticeable on a conscious level by the reader.

I have serious doubts about handwriting-style fonts. Those work best if you are attempting a *facsimile* of the document you quote. That is, if you are trying to reproduce the actual sheet of paper as an illustration. They mesh badly with normal body text. Even so, it can be distracting.

In my personal reading copy of Tuck and Tuck Seasons, I formatted a few things as monospaced fonts -- mostly computer readouts (IRC chats, things like that) and pager messages. I used a terminal-style font, but maybe you can achieve good results using the same digital clock-style OCR font as for the timestamps (the goal being to use as few fonts as possible, as I mentioned).


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5370] Sat, 22 September 2007 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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I'd agree, few fonts, few few fonts. Smile The garamond family is good enough for all body text/prose. (In fact, regular and italic is probably all - italic for emphasis and also for quoted blocks, such as the aforementioned letter-type stuff, and were it not a lawyer-issue, song-lyrics.

I don't actually have a real Garamond to play with; only - oddly enough - the derivative "Apple Garamond" Smile I presume it's similar; I've a feeling the Apple variant may be a bit more condensed.

OCR-A seems a bit 'hey look at me'. I'd go for a plainer monospaced font for timestamps and any other quoted computer-text. Bitstream Vera Sans Mono you should have (as it's part of the OpenOffice installation, I think).

Um, I think the MS Core Fonts EULA is talking about distribution of the fonts themselves, the "SOFTWARE PRODUCT" referenced in the document. Using the fonts (the "software") to produce printed matter is not the same as redistributing it.

In fact, it even seems to have a clause specifically allowing them to be embedded (as they would need to be in the final PS/PDF):

ie: "You may not rename, edit or create any derivative works from the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, other than subsetting when embedding them in documents." (my italics)

In other words, I think it would be okay. Smile

It's a similar thing to the whole GPL FUD that (ironically) Microsoft used to put out. (well, they still do a bit, but I think it's only because it's expected of them.) ie: the GNU C compiler, 'gcc' is licenced according to the GPL, so derivative works must also be GPL. If someone customised a version of the compiler, and wanted to release it, they'd have to GPL it (so if it was worthwhile it could be de-forked back into the main code). But what about people writing closed-source programs, to release commercial software for Linux, that was compiled using gcc? That was the FUD; Microsoft wanted people to worry that they may have to open-source everything. (The whole "viral license" stuff.)

Of course, it's rubbish. The GPL doesn't say anything about what you can do with the output of gcc, or any other GPL software. A C program compiled using gcc doesn't become a derivative work of gcc just because the object code was produced using it. After all, Mac OS X is built with gcc and other GNU development tools, and so is an awful lot of other commercial software.

Same with the fonts. The fonts count as software; if you edited them, modified them, and released your modified versions as installable fonts, you'd be in breach of the license. But a printed text that was produced using those fonts isn't a derivative work of the fonts, and nor is it redistributing the fonts themselves.

IANAL, but I'm fairly sure I'm right.

Of course, if you don't want to use them because you don't like them, that's another matter. Smile Arial in particular is the spawn of Satan and should be avoided at all costs. (OTOH I quite like Georgia, although it was designed foremost for screen legibility so some print purists sniff at it (not all).)


Rachel
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5371] Sat, 22 September 2007 21:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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If you use any fonts not on Lulu's list, you have to embed the fonts.

Here's the list:
Arial
Book Antiqua
Bookman Old Style
Century
Courier
Garamond
Palatino
Tahoma
Times New Roman
Verdana
Symbols

Not one of those looks much like OCR A or B, which I assume your OCR choice resembles. I've also embedded Georgia for eBooks but that isn't appropriate for print but embedding fonts does work. PITA, though. Smile

- Erin
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5374] Sat, 22 September 2007 22:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 02:38

If you use any fonts not on Lulu's list, you have to embed the fonts.

Gee, if only there was a webpage with detailed instructions on how to embed fonts (once only) into a PDF so that Lulu would print them. </sarcasm>
Yep, I knew that. Yep, been setting up to follow the instructions. Yep, feel relieved that I don't have to stick with the defaults.


Ellen
nosig

Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5375] Sat, 22 September 2007 22:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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I wouldn't be using alternate fonts in the text, just to use alternate fonts. But, it seemed to be The Thing To Do, to remove all the ASCII-Internet "formatting" like angle-brackets <> and ** and _emphasized_text_.

And I've got:

* normal text, italic (thoughts) and bold (first-level emphasis)

* timestamps - and I really think these ought to be set off via a different font. Insist, actually; I think it would improve comprehension.

* computer pieces

* pager messages (may or not be the same font and style as the computer pieces)

* hand signals and ASL

* the occasional handwritten snippet, from various people

Especially the ASL/sign, I think, should use a different font, to show that it's not English and not even audible.

Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series uses colons as quotes plus italics, in later versions, to show telepathic communications.
Anne McCaffrey uses italics for telepathic communications.
Ummmm... that's all my pathetic memory can pull up at the moment.
Cyberpunk lit might have some other pieces, with the different methods of communication possible in that genre; but I can't think of any examples at the moment.


Ellen
nosig
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5376] Sat, 22 September 2007 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Sir Lee wrote on Sat, 22 September 2007 23:47

My design teacher in Publishing school discouraged us from using too many fonts. He said it makes the whole thing look messy. He suggested trying to limit oneself to using ONE serif font and ONE sans-serif font, and using typographical variations to achieve further desired variations.


English grammar classes taught me never to end a sentence with a preposition.

"Of what is that made?"

On the other hand, once I got out of school, I found that there's a lot of stuff going on that the school teacher didn't know; and more that they did know but "moderation" is very hard for kids to understand, so things were forbidden rather than go into great whiny fights over every instance in an attempt to tune a child's "moderation", for each and every item.

"What's that made of?"

Likewise, programming classes said that GOTOs were forbidden entirely. Real world programmers occasionally used them in C, waybackwhen, and they are in the language, because sometimes it's the least tormented way to do it.

I think that a shift of fonts to SIGNIFY something, conveying information it would be obtrusive to signal any other way, is a damned good idea. Since everyone is pushing me towards "professional appearance", I would like to get away from using <ASCII-Internet> or *ASCII_Usenet* or even /Fidonet/ conventions.


Ellen
nosig
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5377] Sun, 23 September 2007 00:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Sat, 22 September 2007 23:15

I wouldn't be using alternate fonts in the text, just to use alternate fonts. But, it seemed to be The Thing To Do, to remove all the ASCII-Internet "formatting" like angle-brackets <> and ** and _emphasized_text_.


Yes, that's generally a good idea.


Quote:

And I've got:

* normal text, italic (thoughts) and bold (first-level emphasis)


Seems good choices to me.

Quote:

* timestamps - and I really think these ought to be set off via a different font. Insist, actually; I think it would improve comprehension.


Hmm, in a way I agree -- but maybe you don't need to set apart a font *exclusively* for this. I would first give a try at sharing this font with some other purpose. Maybe you could do it with your main sans-serif font, or your monospaced font -- only do the timestamps in bold (for instance) while computer stuff can be monospaced regular. If you set it in bold, maybe you can take out the three asterisks above the timestamp (saving a line, which could mean a few less pages in the end -- Tuck has A LOT of timestamps).

Quote:

* computer pieces

* pager messages (may or not be the same font and style as the computer pieces)


See above.

Quote:

* hand signals and ASL

* the occasional handwritten snippet, from various people

Especially the ASL/sign, I think, should use a different font, to show that it's not English and not even audible.

Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series uses colons as quotes plus italics, in later versions, to show telepathic communications.
Anne McCaffrey uses italics for telepathic communications.



Hmmm... maybe, maybe not. I have also seen "special cases" of communication (like telepathic communication) being set apart in print by use of less-common *delimiters.* A good possibility for the ASL could be "French quotes", which look a bit like double "less-than" and "more-than" chars. (These should be used *instead of* regular quotes) I really don't care for the use of colons as delimiters, because 1) in regular English they have other traditional meaning, and 2) you don't have "opening colon" and "closing colon" characters. French-style angle quotes (their HTML entity names are &laquo; and &raquo;) have neither of this disadvantages.

For the handwritten thing: if it's a full transcribed document, like a complete note, you can set it apart a bit by some time-honored devices -- for instance, bigger margins and italics.

Generally speaking, changing fonts *inside* a paragraph is not the best idea -- it tends to make the whole thing look messy.

No rule is absolute, of course. But you might want to check the "traditional" few-fonts approach and compare it with the more-fonts version before committing to either.

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5378] Sun, 23 September 2007 01:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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I like those ideas.

Terry Pratchet makes good use of some alternate fonts in some of his books though, so it can be done. Smile

- Erin
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5379] Sun, 23 September 2007 03:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Ellen, are you considering anything (other than the lack of timestamps) to distinguish the third-person segments from the regular Tuck-narrated portions?

I'm not saying that I think that's a necessity, but when you asked about using multiple fonts, it was the first thing (other than the timestamps) that came to my mind.

Eric
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5381] Sun, 23 September 2007 07:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Eric wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 08:52

Ellen, are you considering anything (other than the lack of timestamps) to distinguish the third-person segments from the regular Tuck-narrated portions?


Eh, no I wasn't. Should I?

If I do, it'll be another 'normal' font; like Charis SIL vs. Garamond, or similar.


Ellen
nosig

Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5382] Sun, 23 September 2007 07:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Sir Lee wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 05:22

For the handwritten thing: if it's a full transcribed document, like a complete note, you can set it apart a bit by some time-honored devices -- for instance, bigger margins and italics.

"Time honored" so often means in practice "due to technical limitations" - look at the ASCII-Usenet I use to write online Tuck, for instance. The ASCII character set included only one double-quote character, one single-quote-plus-apostrophe character, one dash-and-hyphen character... because it was written back in the days when bits were important and valuable items (at least in the aggregate).

Sir Lee wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 05:22

Generally speaking, changing fonts *inside* a paragraph is not the best idea -- it tends to make the whole thing look messy.

If I did handwriting, it would be set off with a blank line top & bottom, and a greater indent either side. So in a sense it would be a NEW paragraph, each occurrence; just like another person speaking.

Sir Lee wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 05:22

No rule is absolute, of course. But you might want to check the "traditional" few-fonts approach and compare it with the more-fonts version before committing to either.

If you have a clue as to where I can find such a thing that someone else has done (free! Meaning, no doubt, on the WWW) I'd like to look at it. Believe me, I WILL be looking at what I make up myself; I might even put up a sheet or two, if I can resolve some printing issues (last times I tried, though not with everything set up, I was not getting the headers in the PDF versions, though they were there in the OpenOffice .odt and in OpenOffice).

I'm partially thinking of O'Reilly books and manuals; while I do know the difference between a textbook and a fiction novel, the way that different fonts are used to show different things such as what the screen should say versus what you should type versus main text versus commentary (ironic or supplementing) seems like a fantastic concept - a meta-tool or usage of tools in a new and good way.


Ellen
nosig
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5383] Sun, 23 September 2007 10:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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On a smaller scale, I just tried this on a ebook for hatbox. I'm using verdana for title and such, palatino for body and lucida handwriting for the text of two letters. It looks fine and I think adds something that simply using italicized palatino would not.

Then again, there's no page that has more than two fonts. If you want to see what I did. I can send the file in either .doc, .rtf or .pdf.

- Erin
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5384] Sun, 23 September 2007 11:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Josea  is currently offline Josea
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 04:47

...
If you have a clue as to where I can find such a thing that someone else has done (free! Meaning, no doubt, on the WWW) I'd like to look at it. Believe me, I WILL be looking at what I make up myself; I might even put up a sheet or two, if I can resolve some printing issues (last times I tried, though not with everything set up, I was not getting the headers in the PDF versions, though they were there in the OpenOffice .odt and in OpenOffice).
...

Previously you said that you have to go to great pains to view PDF files. Are you now able view PDFs now that you have X Windows setup?


Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5385] Sun, 23 September 2007 14:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Josea wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 16:09

Previously you said that you have to go to great pains to view PDF files. Are you now able view PDFs now that you have X Windows setup?


Why do you ask?


Ellen
nosig
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5386] Sun, 23 September 2007 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Josea  is currently offline Josea
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Why do I ask? So I won't assume. One can assume that you can since you said the the headers are not coming out on the PDF version. But Benny Hill warn that one must never assume. Razz

Your being able to easily view PDF means that if one sents you a mockup of some design idea it can be in PDF and look like it will when printed.

Did you say you wish to see samples of traditional book design? I thought you did or something like that. Some publishers have released some of their older books (mostly old computer books which are regarded as obsole) as PDFs which any one can download. And there are many freely downloadable PDFs which you can look at for idea (and even to see what doesn't work).
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5388] Sun, 23 September 2007 21:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Josea wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 20:57

Why do I ask? So I won't assume.

Eh, well, guess I deserved that one. =-P

Josea wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 20:57

Your being able to easily view PDF means that if one sents you a mockup of some design idea it can be in PDF and look like it will when printed.

Ya know, if I didn't know software as well as I do, this would sound believeable. But just because Wizard A can do something, doesn't mean _I_ can. So someone else sending me an all-finished PDF doesn't tell me anything. Instructions - FOR SOMETHING I WANTED TO DO - would be of more help.

Josea wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 20:57

Did you say you wish to see samples of traditional book design?

No. That's the LAST thing I need, honestly. I've got, um... I wrote this down... 60 feet of 12-inch shelves, 155 feet (one hundred and fifty five feet) of paperback shelves - both approximately full - some oddities for trade-paperbacks and hardcovers, plus books stacked up to the height of the doorknob behind one door, plus boxes and bags of books that I have no shelving for. Plus piles.

I have samples of traditional bound books going from early Noughts - the last time I could buy new - to *gets up to look* a "Ladies Home Assistant" from 1852, and no it's not a reprint from what I can tell.

Off Topic

The medical section is terrifying, BTW. Scurvy: "Take three ounces of nitre [potassium nitrate], and dissolve it in one quart of good vinegar [acetic acid, not ascorbic acid]. Dose, one table-spoonful, if the stomach will bear it, if not take less." Considering that Lind had a clue about scurvy, and ran possibly the first controlled experiment ever on it, in 1747...



Ellen
nosig
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5389] Sun, 23 September 2007 22:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Whups, missed something.

Sir Lee wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 05:22

If you set it {timestamps} in bold, maybe you can take out the three asterisks above the timestamp (saving a line, which could mean a few less pages in the end -- Tuck has A LOT of timestamps).

Yeah, I know (but the rest of you don't...). One extra line, fifty to seventy times per episode, is at least one page and maybe two of text. Per episode.

That's why I wanted to use something like OCR-A - really distinctive without being GLARINGLY OBVIOUS or overly cute (a clock face and tiny calendar would be overly cute).


Ellen
nosig
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5390] Mon, 24 September 2007 05:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 04:36

Eric wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 08:52

Ellen, are you considering anything (other than the lack of timestamps) to distinguish the third-person segments from the regular Tuck-narrated portions?

Eh, no I wasn't. Should I?

If I do, it'll be another 'normal' font; like Charis SIL vs. Garamond, or similar.

I think some visible distinction (doesn't have to be font) would be nice, assuming it's apparent enough that people realize that it's deliberate. (I tried a mid-story font change once in my publication (when the POV of the piece changed from the present to 1915) and one of my friends, after reading it, immediately phoned me to alert me to the "error".)

Removing the asterisks from the Tuck sections and keeping them (or something comparable) in the third-person part could be enough. The title variation (if you're keeping the chapter titles) probably isn't, judging from past notes in your guestbook and my own lack of familiarity with Pink Floyd (which Tuck himself, now that I think about it, may actually share).

Eric
Re: EGS: Fonts [message #5397] Mon, 24 September 2007 20:39 Go to previous message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Sat, 22 September 2007 19:15

Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series uses colons as quotes plus italics, in later versions, to show telepathic communications.
Anne McCaffrey uses italics for telepathic communications.
Ummmm... that's all my pathetic memory can pull up at the moment.
Cyberpunk lit might have some other pieces, with the different methods of communication possible in that genre; but I can't think of any examples at the moment.


I think one of the first examples of that sort of thing was George O. Smith's "Highways in Hiding" (from 1967). He used # as the "quote mark" for telepathic conversations (which there were a *lot* of in that book). There was a note before the story explaining this "convention".
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