Home » Tuck Talk » Chapter by Chapter » "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football."
"If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5415] Sun, 21 October 2007 11:50 Go to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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#133 posted.


Ellen
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Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5416] Sun, 21 October 2007 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
karen_page  is currently offline karen_page
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Now this is an episode with a lot in it with a lot of implications for the the next chapter.

Will Dad chat with Mum about what he's found and how will she react?

Now they know their child feels comfortable in female clothes, will they abandon the testosterone shots?

How will Sheila react at tomorrows therapy session.


What a full episode.
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5417] Sun, 21 October 2007 19:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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karen_page wrote on Sun, 21 October 2007 18:46

How will Sheila react at tomorrows therapy session.


I've got that written already... =) but it's editable, if anyone has any good ideas...
*bangs on recalcitrant posters' heads with Clue Stick* Yes I mean YOU!


Ellen
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Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5418] Sun, 21 October 2007 21:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Amy!  is currently offline Amy!
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Sun, 21 October 2007 19:02

karen_page wrote on Sun, 21 October 2007 18:46

How will Sheila react at tomorrows therapy session?


I've got that written already... =) but it's editable, if anyone has any good ideas...


Will there really be that much reaction? It's not like this is particularly new to Sheila, and the outfit Val was wearing wasn't much different from the fancy one she wore to Sheila's.

Now, having Sheila be sharp enough to catch Pam's reaction, and ask about it ... that might show her in the light of guru-therapist-san. She's shown flashes of that before, so I s'pose that's possible.

Why would it be interesting to her otherwise? Valerie goes out socially with her friends. Nothing to see here, move along ... or am I missing something?

Amy!
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5420] Mon, 22 October 2007 09:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Sun, 21 October 2007 16:02

karen_page wrote on Sun, 21 October 2007 18:46

How will Sheila react at tomorrows therapy session.


I've got that written already... =) but it's editable, if anyone has any good ideas...
*bangs on recalcitrant posters' heads with Clue Stick* Yes I mean YOU!


Well, it might lead to revealing that Tuck felt it necessary to go way over to Rachel's to get changed. Which could lead to a discussion about why he doesn't just change at home.

After the "confrontation" with Bill Tucker on the porch, I'm coming to the conclusion that Tuck might be a bit more clueful about that than I'd thought.

But having it brought out into the open and making sure that Tuck actually *considers* the possibility of changing at home couldn't hurt.

And, of course, getting Tuck to explain his thoughts about why he went for the dress will help *Sheila* get a handle on where Tuck's head is at.

Be interesting to see what Sheila noticed about Pam. Given her previous acuity on some things, she *will* have noticed something. Not sure how the ethics of talking about it with Tuck go. Since Pam obviously isn't one of Sheila's patients there's no confidentially involved, just not sure how it would work if Sheila was to make any suggestions to Tuck about how he can "help" Pam.
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5421] Mon, 22 October 2007 20:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Amy! wrote on Mon, 22 October 2007 02:06

Ellen Hayes wrote on Sun, 21 October 2007 19:02

karen_page wrote on Sun, 21 October 2007 18:46

How will Sheila react at tomorrows therapy session?


I've got that written already... =) but it's editable, if anyone has any good ideas...


Will there really be that much reaction? It's not like this is particularly new to Sheila, and the outfit Val was wearing wasn't much different from the fancy one she wore to Sheila's.

Now, having Sheila be sharp enough to catch Pam's reaction, and ask about it ... that might show her in the light of guru-therapist-san. She's shown flashes of that before, so I s'pose that's possible.

Why would it be interesting to her otherwise? Valerie goes out socially with her friends. Nothing to see here, move along ... or am I missing something?

Amy!


No, I don't think it's news to Sheila. But it is a lever she may be able to use to prise open all that denial that's still going on. Although, Tuck's just made a big step in that direction without Sheila's help, in the 'conversation' with Bill, in admitting at last that it's a choice; but for a looong time there's been this disconnect between Tuck's self-description and how manifestly comfortable and natural Tuck is when presenting as Valerie. If Sheila can prise that wide open, she earns those guru-therapist-san stripes. There's still going to be a lot of tough times with the parentals over all this -- Sarah's just sedated, nothing's resolved, and for the first time we've seen something of Bill's own problems, in a moment when he's not preoccupied with Sarah's overreactions. Tuck needs to have some clarity about what's going on and where it's going, so at least one person in that family does.

Of course, that's really hard when you're sixteen; why most of us don't get that kind of self-awareness and/or courage that helps you assert yourself against familial pressure until we've grown up and left the parental home; but some do, and Tuck pretty much has all the tools now.

And it's noteworthy -- again about the encounter with Bill -- that the truth (paraphrased: 'I want to do this, it's my choice'), once finally told, was not met with reprisals. This stands in contrast to the result of all the previous evasions and excuses. Serious effort of will on Bill's part, but with any luck the payoff is that the lesson is learned.


Rachel
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5422] Tue, 23 October 2007 02:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
karen_page  is currently offline karen_page
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Brooke wrote on Mon, 22 October 2007 14:11

But having it brought out into the open and making sure that Tuck actually *considers* the possibility of changing at home couldn't hurt.


Nah, none of them are ready for that and in the episode with Dad we had:
Tuck 133


"And you WERE going to change again before you came home?"

"Oh yeah," I agreed.

He nodded agreement.



To me it very much sounded like Bill didn't want Tuck to change at home and was making sure that Tuck didn't. If this is because Bill has issues or Bill is concerned about Sarah (or possibly Brian), is so far unclear.
Tuck 133 [message #5423] Tue, 23 October 2007 08:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Karen pointed out more or less what I was going to: it seems clear that Bill isn't comfortable with the idea of Tuck changing into Valerie at home, and Bill knows (from previous events) that Sarah's going to be even more uncomfortable about it than he is.

On the other point, I can't see Sheila asking Tuck about Pam's reaction. However astute and observant Sheila may be, Pam isn't her patient and the answer's none of her business. (Tuck, with his respect for other people's secrets, would presumably tell Sheila precisely that if she did ask him.)

After re-reading last week's session with Sheila, Amy! certainly seems to have a point. Encountering a well-dressed Valerie rather than Tuck on the way to an upscale social event with a female friend ought to match Sheila's expectations, not confound them.

I have the feeling that the direction in which Sheila will want to take the discussion -- I'm guessing it'll be Tuck who'll be there tomorrow, as opposed to Val, which would create an obvious lead-in -- is just how flexible is Tuck's self-image, which the last Sheila heard was gay male?

I think Sheila can sense that neither part of that designation seems as strong to Tuck now as it was, say, two weeks ago. It probably seemed significant to her (if not to Tuck) that even after last week's session ended in Val's extreme emotional discomfort -- something that never reached quite that intensity in sessions in Tuck mode -- Val was still unsure whether she'd be more comfortable next week as Val or Tuck.

What Sheila finds out from Tuck or succeeds in inferring from Tuck's evasions remains to be seen. There's the brief affair with Jill, along with whatever happens with Pam tonight. (My guess is that they'll just cuddle.) Maybe Tuck's take on the Saturday classes with Nicole; he'll presumably be willing to talk about that.

Eric
Re: Tuck 133 [message #5428] Fri, 26 October 2007 01:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pacchi  is currently offline Pacchi
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Personally, I think the churchy dressup idea for the last session was a bad one; I agree with Mike that Sheila is there to get past layers rather than look at them from the outside.

It sounds like Sheila either knew Tuck wasn't really being 'herself'(valerie casual) during the last session OR she might have gotten the wrong impression that Tuck can only do a visually loud facsimile of female. That would in turn call into question whether Tuck was exaggerating his Valerie claims, whether he is "trying too hard" and what that could mean.

Seeing Valerie "in her own skin" in a setting outside of therapy, this might reverse the misconceptions from last session which Sheila did not go into, possibly because she wanted to see casual Valerie at the next session anyway, or at least whether it was Tuck or Val that showed up.

On another issue, I doubt Bill would make a fuss or disallow Tuck from changing at home. I just get the feeling that he wants whatever is safest for Tuck and he just needs to bend his head around this one.

I'm sure it took alot of thought to be comfortable with insisting that The kids have sex in the house where it was safe, but Bill probably had a lot of time to think about that one (or at least, the years getting close to puberty). What happened to Susan probably precipitated the official policy though.

I have a feeling that Bill was just checking through to make sure he knew what his son was going to be doing at various points in the evening; he's probably very tired of surprises by now. He is making an effort not to let raw emotion and societal prejudice cloud his rational judgement and I think he's doing alittle better than Sarah.

I do agree however that this is possibly the first definitively positive recognition that Valerie has gotten, maybe the start of and effort to blend her into the Tucker family routine. What I mean is, Bill seems abit stiff about it, but I think he's trying to make Tuck know he's not going to be persecuted for deciding to wear his Valerie persona, which is a fear that has contributed adversely to so much of the problems this last year.

I'm using alot of quotation marks because I'm just procrastinating at the moment and not putting a huge amount of polish into this :P

- P

Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5429] Fri, 26 October 2007 02:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LuLou  is currently offline LuLou
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Tuck's talked about having two options: starting testosterone shots and delaying doing anything, but at some point someone is going to suggest being Valerie full-time. While the topic has been mentioned by a few of the older characters, I don't think Tuck will give it any more consideration until one of Val's peer group starts to push the idea. Amy's coming for Thanksgiving, she might be a good person to bring it up.

LuLou

Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5438] Fri, 26 October 2007 06:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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LuLou wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 07:10

Tuck's talked about having two options: starting testosterone shots and delaying doing anything, but at some point someone is going to suggest being Valerie full-time. While the topic has been mentioned by a few of the older characters, I don't think Tuck will give it any more consideration until one of Val's peer group starts to push the idea. Amy's coming for Thanksgiving, she might be a good person to bring it up.

LuLou




I think those options are about right at this stage. The thing is, there's probably going to be a load of pressure from certain quarters to give up valerie and do the testosterone shots - well, there already has, i suppose. So the "do nothing" option is actually not passivity, it would be a conscious, positive choice.


Rachel
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5440] Fri, 26 October 2007 17:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mthead  is currently offline mthead
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Sheila’s goal is a happy, (dare I say) well adjusted Tucker. She wants Tuck to be able to feel comfortable with expressing any non-destructive behavior and for Tuck to feel comfortable with who and what Tuck is as a person. Unfortunately, she has her work cut out for her to determine what behavior is non-destructive for Tuck. She knows of the physical attacks and the paranoia, the medical history and dual roles Tuck has, and she knows of the confused sexual history.
What she does not know is the increasingly frequent outings by Tuck (as Tuck) with nail polish etc. And, I am not sure if Tuck has told her of the increasing frequency of being mistaken as female. I think she does know about Tuck taking cosmetology and has to be making notes about that. She might have observed a great deal in the store if she watched Tuck the entire time Pam and Tuck were in the store. She might have discerned the comfort Tuck had as Val and will certainly want to explore his decision making that led to going to the opera as Val.
It is painfully apparent to me as a reader that Tuck would have a much less fearful existence as Val, and the exploration of that in therapy would be a satisfying story line. Of course, I do not really know if that would be a less fearful existence or not.
I would love to have the feelings surrounding Tucks talk with Bill explored in as much depth as possible. If that came up it would be nice. I think that could have the same emotional impact on the reader as the dissolution of the relationship with Debbie. I tend to relate to that situation more from Bill’s POV than Tuck’s and would find it very interesting to see Ellen’s treatment of the emotions in a therapy session (and at home).

As for Bill being concerned about Tuck changing clothes. He has to be concerned about Tuck being seen coming and going from the house as Val. I do not think he is concerned about his and Sarah's feelings. The impact of someone noticing would have on Tuck's safety as well as Brian's is quite significant. You know Brian would have a hard time with it both personally and socially and it could have an impact on Bill’s business and any impending legal matters.
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5442] Fri, 26 October 2007 17:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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mthead wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 14:27


It is painfully apparent to me as a reader that Tuck would have a much less fearful existence as Val, and the exploration of that in therapy would be a satisfying story line. Of course, I do not really know if that would be a less fearful existence or not.



It'd only be less fearful if no one who knew Tuck could recognize him as Valerie. Otherwise, you get fag-bashing. Sad

mthead wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 14:27

As for Bill being concerned about Tuck changing clothes. He has to be concerned about Tuck being seen coming and going from the house as Val. I do not think he is concerned about his and Sarah's feelings. The impact of someone noticing would have on Tuck's safety as well as Brian's is quite significant. You know Brian would have a hard time with it both personally and socially and it could have an impact on Bill’s business and any impending legal matters.



From a distance, folks are apt to see Val as being Susan. That's happened several times with Tuck in *guy* mode.

Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5443] Fri, 26 October 2007 19:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Josea  is currently offline Josea
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Brooke wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 14:58

...

mthead wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 14:27

As for Bill being concerned about Tuck changing clothes. He has to be concerned about Tuck being seen coming and going from the house as Val. I do not think he is concerned about his and Sarah's feelings. The impact of someone noticing would have on Tuck's safety as well as Brian's is quite significant. You know Brian would have a hard time with it both personally and socially and it could have an impact on Bill’s business and any impending legal matters.



From a distance, folks are apt to see Val as being Susan. That's happened several times with Tuck in *guy* mode.



Or people will think That Amy came back to visit if they see Val going in or out of the Tucker house.

Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5444] Fri, 26 October 2007 19:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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mthead wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 14:27

... You know Brian would have a hard time with it both personally and socially and it could have an impact on Bill’s business and any impending legal matters.


I'm not sure it would completely trouble Brain. He is a lot more intelegent than often given credit for. He had to take medical tests to see if he don't have the same problem and Tuck reports that he was asking thoughful questions one time (I don't remember the when) showing that he did give thought to the medical problem. Most of his friends already think that Tuck is gay. When some one told him 'I heard your faggot brother got beat up' Brain didn't get defensive but just gave out some misinformation.

Since Brain worried, at least for a little while, that he might have the same problem he must have given it enough thought to realize that Tuck is as much female as male in the biological sense. Tuck's penis is the only physical sign that 'he' is male. No testes plus one overie makes Tuck female. Tuck was raised as a boy, that is why his very smart parents are having trouble with the gender issue.

I could be mistaken, I have been before, but I think Brain might not have as much trouble as his parents are having. Many of the post attack chapters have shown Brain to be more intelegent and resourceful than any one previously imagined. I think Brain would be OK having two sisters instead of one. It may take him a little while and he'll have to put up with assholes making comments about his 'faggot brother' but I think he can handle it.
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5447] Sat, 27 October 2007 06:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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mthead wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 22:27

Sheila’s goal is a happy, (dare I say) well adjusted Tucker. She wants Tuck to be able to feel comfortable with expressing any non-destructive behavior and for Tuck to feel comfortable with who and what Tuck is as a person. Unfortunately, she has her work cut out for her to determine what behavior is non-destructive for Tuck. She knows of the physical attacks and the paranoia, the medical history and dual roles Tuck has, and she knows of the confused sexual history.
What she does not know is the increasingly frequent outings by Tuck (as Tuck) with nail polish etc. And, I am not sure if Tuck has told her of the increasing frequency of being mistaken as female.


Which reminds me; forgot to note it before. There is another recent change in that Tuck seems no longer bothered by the "misreads". It used to be very depressing, now Tuck just gets a bit annoyed about people making a fuss about it.


Rachel
Bill and Brian [message #5461] Sun, 28 October 2007 08:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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mthead wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 14:27

As for Bill being concerned about Tuck changing clothes. He has to be concerned about Tuck being seen coming and going from the house as Val.

I don't think so, at least not by neighbors or strangers. It's not a long walk from the door to Tuck's car, and over the past five weeks, dozens of teens have entered and left the Tucker house, sometimes at odd hours. Val could easily just be one more.

mthead, continued

I do not think he is concerned about his and Sarah's feelings. The impact of someone noticing would have on Tuck's safety as well as Brian's is quite significant. You know Brian would have a hard time with it both personally and socially...

I don't think Tuck's problems with his enemies can get much worse than they are now (or were when he was attacked); I suspect we'll find out Monday, once the attention-drawing incident at the bowling venue leaks out. As I said before, I'm not sure what it'd change: the people who are claiming (accurately, according to Mike) that Tuck's been more effeminate at school than ever since the start of October, and especially the girls spreading the rumor that he wears makeup to school, aren't going to be particularly surprised if someone saw him in girls' clothes.

I don't think Brian's social life is going to be impacted, though I guess it's possible that some socially influential jock or cheerleader type will decide that Tuck is contagious and manage to organize an embargo of sorts against Brian. I'm not sure how vulnerable he'd be to that sort of thing: while his interests are more mainstream than Tuck's, I don't have the feeling that he runs with an in-crowd, or has any desire to.

Personally (that is, emotionally), it's likely to be uncomfortable for Brian, but I think the sex-with-a-guy part -- and of course he's already heard about that -- will make him queasier than the (still)-going-around-as-a-girl end of things. Tuck's line to Anne-Marie last week -- "it's my superpower" -- may be fairly close to Brian's take on the situation, assuming Tuck doesn't start interacting with the family as Valerie.

mthead, continued

... and it could have an impact on Bill's business and any impending legal matters.

As for the first, I doubt it. Like many geeks, Bill Tucker gets his computer jobs because he's good at them, not because he fits into middle-class normality.

The legal point's harder to dismiss -- Tuck's testimony as an attack victim might carry less weight if his life as Valerie were exposed. Also, the possibility exists that an attorney for one of the attackers could get a "reasonable doubt" acquittal by speculating that Tuck got what he deserved because he'd previously been flirting with or dating one of the attackers as Valerie. (As Brooke or somebody pointed out here before, the more obvious "subduing a dangerous pervert by force" defense loses some steam when the judge and jury get a look at the small and unassuming Eugene Tucker.)

But again, simply spotting Valerie leaving the house does them no good unless they can identify her as Tuck, and it'd probably take fairly long-term surveillance (without the Tucker family knowing about it and defeating it) to eliminate other possibilities.

Eric

[Updated on: Mon, 29 October 2007 03:12]

Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5463] Sun, 28 October 2007 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LuLou  is currently offline LuLou
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Josea wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 16:56



Since Brian worried, at least for a little while, that he might have the same problem



Did we ever hear the results of the rest of the family? The lab called and needed to see Susan and Sarah immediately, but that got lost in the post-attack hoorah. Is the family waiting until Susan comes home at Thanksgiving, or has it been forgotten?


LuLou


Sedation? [message #5467] Mon, 29 October 2007 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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rachel.greenham wrote on Mon, 22 October 2007 17:39

There's still going to be a lot of tough times with the parentals over all this -- Sarah's just sedated, nothing's resolved...

It appears that both Sarah and Tuck have rather suddenly found the (non-confrontational, nurturing) mother/young child level of interaction most effective right now in suiting their respective needs.

There's sort of a chicken-and-egg thing here: Sarah is obviously easier for Tuck (and everyone else) to deal with when she's reacting like this, and Tuck -- as Mike noted -- has been passive almost to a fault lately, which keeps him non-confrontational unless provoked.

Sarah's sedation for her back problem may well have been the start of this, and the fact that she's now in psychotherapy may be keeping things cooler than they'd be otherwise. But I wouldn't think she'd still be taking the pain pills more than three weeks after the injury, unless they (or others) have now been prescribed for her mental health. (There's no reason to think Tuck knows precisely what's happening with his mother's meds, so it's not surprising that we readers don't know.)

Presumably Sarah's personality or Tuck's gradual recovery from his physical problems (and the medications related to them) will put an end to the cycle over the next few weeks, and -- as Rachel said -- we'll see how Sarah handles Valerie's further emergence.

Eric
Re: Sedation? [message #5473] Wed, 31 October 2007 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Eric wrote on Mon, 29 October 2007 15:38


Presumably Sarah's personality or Tuck's gradual recovery from his physical problems (and the medications related to them) will put an end to the cycle over the next few weeks, and -- as Rachel said -- we'll see how Sarah handles Valerie's further emergence.
Eric


Would Bill not tell Sarah that Tuck went to the ballet as Valerie? I think Bill would in his own way to ensure there won't be any surprises to Sarah. If that's a given (telling Sarah), would Sarah likely confront Tuck when he returns home with Pam?
Re: Sedation? [message #5474] Thu, 01 November 2007 00:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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lurker wrote on Wed, 31 October 2007 12:37

If that's a given (telling Sarah), would Sarah likely confront Tuck when he returns home with Pam?

I'm inclined to say no, for at least a couple of reasons.

One, since Pam will also be there, neither confronting Tuck in front of a family outsider nor exchanging good-night hugs would seem to be in order, so I wouldn't expect Sarah to stay up late. Curfew's not an issue here, and Sarah can check the log for that tomorrow morning if she's concerned. And it's not like staying up would catch Tuck doing something illicit, since Bill already signed off on it and in any case Tuck will be changing at Rachel's first.

(That assumes nothing goes wrong between their departure from (presumably) their post-performance food stop at the end of the chapter and their reaching Rachel's and then the Tucker house. Obviously any number of unlikely things could happen -- car trouble, something wrong at Rachel's that prevents Val from getting in or eliminates Tuck's change of clothes, an emergency call to Tuck's cellphone from Mike (or Debbie?), a medical emergency -- if Ellen wants Tuck to get home late or in a dress or both.)

Two, in Sarah's current, unusual state of mind she may be more inclined to avoid a confrontation than instigate one: this really isn't something that has to be handled right now.

Eric

[Updated on: Thu, 01 November 2007 00:19]

Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5480] Fri, 02 November 2007 23:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brutus  is currently offline Brutus
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This chapter seems to have opened up several promising areas. Bill is thinking instead of reacting, Sheila has seen "the real Val" at a time when Val isn't being stressed out, and as was mentioned, Tuck has been seen in public wearing makeup (nail polish) and been misidentified as a girl without freaking about it.

So, is Bill going to tell Sarah that Tuck is going out as Val?

Are Bill and Sarah going to decide that Tuck be allowed to "change" at home into Valerie in order to make him/her "safer"? (Heck, if they demand that he have sex at home for "safety" reasons...)

Is Sheila going to ask Tuck to come see her dressed in real as opposed to the obviously fake Val clothes?

Is Brian going to be a shit or is he going to continue to mature as has been seen in the last few chapters? (Reference the scene about the "bubble bath" where he went to support Tuck instead of ducking and screaming when Tuck started coughing.)

And on a related note, are we going to hear more about Sarah's therapy sessions? I would like more attention paid to Sarah's part in this story. Why is she so upset and opposed to Tuck presenting as a female? Why does she have so much "rage" bottled up inside her?

And most important... When will Tuck get that dammed diaper box out of his car??? Very Happy
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5481] Sat, 03 November 2007 01:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Chekhov's Law would suggest that before the end of another chapter, Tuck will have to diaper someone. Smile

- Erin
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5484] Sat, 03 November 2007 15:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Not That Mike  is currently offline Not That Mike
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Either diaper someone or have to improvise bandages for some horrific motorcycle accident. Rolling Eyes
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5485] Sun, 04 November 2007 01:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brutus  is currently offline Brutus
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Somehow I don't think the diaper would fit anyone going to the ballet. At least... I hope not! Very Happy

And as far as using a diaper for a compress or dressing in a motorcycle accident, I do believe Tuck carries emergency med supplies in his car. Which would presumably include battlefield dressings. Heck, I've got three or four sitting in my gear box. Very cheap at mil surplus stores, and could be vital in case of an accident. I don't know if Mike is a designated medic, but I do recall he carried an extremely well stocked emergency med bag in his car. Reference him using it when Tuck got beat all to hell.

BTW, in my younger days I came unglued from my motorcycle several times. And the only reason I would have needed a diaper, well, it was too late to do any good... Embarassed Good leather and helmet keep road rash from being too much of a problem.
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5487] Sun, 04 November 2007 19:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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And, it's an EMPTY diaper box.

Tuck really needs to clean out his car...

Of course, what really got him to clean up his room, was Debbie pitching a fit over his mess, back when they were dating. So his room has been clean... What needs to happen, is for Tuck to find someone to neck with in the car, so they can complain about how messy the CAR is.


Ellen
nosig
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5501] Sat, 10 November 2007 02:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erik  is currently offline Erik
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Sigh,

I still miss Travis.

We know what the Parkers are doing. We know what the Pack is doing. What are the courts and the school doing? Have the Boyz made a hit list yet? What is cousin Amy going to do? Is Susan going to help>?

Amy could invite Tuck to go to her school. Changing schools would avoid the Home Schooling, which is easier than it used to be but is still not simple. A senior year away? Dobson could just give Tuck the final exams from last years senior classes and be granted a high school diploma and then go to college with Susan?
There are so many ways out of High School for someone as smart as Tuck but it seems he wants to stay with his friends.

What's happening with the assailants?
Everybody got arrested and apparently the cheerleaders made bail or were released to their parents.
I'd have expected somebody to roll. Being arrested for conspiracy to commit assault resulting in grievous bodily harm on school property. That's serious. Probably enough charges to make the three strikes if you add in hate crimes. The spray painting of Tuck's car could be used as evidence of a hate crime. Facing fifteen years in prison if any of the seniors were over eighteen is so serious that somebody would of told all in an attempt to get a deal, minimize their participation, and be a witness for the state.

What is the school doing? Has anyone been expelled yet? Do schools really have to wait for due-process and have a conviction from a court?

OR Ellen could be setting the attackers up for revenge by Bill Tucker. We know Bill can do violence. Can Bill Tucker do undetectable subtle violence? Or is it just going to be unsubtle and non-lethal. Hack Attack! Erase all there records and make them nonentities? Imagine every traffic stop shows them being unlicensed or having warrants out for their arrest. Sick the lawyers on them and bankrupt them? Wipe out their college funds?

So little time, so many targets of opportunity.

Erik
Golden, Colorado


You are not paranoid. We really are out to get you.
Progress? [message #5502] Sat, 10 November 2007 08:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Erik wrote on Fri, 09 November 2007 23:03

What are the courts and the school doing?

It seems too soon for anything to be happening in court, at least of a criminal nature. We know that an investigation was proceeding; I assume that they wouldn't be ready to prosecute this soon, and even then the defense would need time to prepare their case and delay the trial(s) as a consequence. (Of course, we don't know how many separate cases there would be; there'd almost certainly be individual attorneys for each defendent.)

Quote:

Have the Boyz made a hit list yet? What is cousin Amy going to do? Is Susan going to help>?

Mike and Bill have explained more than once that nothing can productively be done until after the trial (or sentencing, if they plead guilty to lesser charges as the Tuckers' attorney expects) because it could jeopardize the case. The Prisoner salute was as far as they dared push it, and that was against the cheerleaders and not the main perpetrators. Amy and Susan get their instructions from Bill Tucker just like Mike and Da Boyz, so they're not going to be loose cannons here either.

Quote:

Amy could invite Tuck to go to her school.

That wouldn't make any sense. Tuck wants to be at McAllen to help protect his friends; the last thing he'd want is to be isolated a thousand miles away while things play out.

Quote:

What's happening with the assailants? Everybody got arrested and apparently the cheerleaders made bail or were released to their parents. I'd have expected somebody to roll. Being arrested for conspiracy to commit assault resulting in grievous bodily harm on school property. That's serious.

It's only serious from Tuck's point of view. Since Tuck's chronic illness arguably became the cause of the emergency and no weapons were involved in the attack -- and because the closest thing to a witness to the conspiracy part -- Ginger, in the girls' bathroom the day of the attack -- has nothing but hearsay and could only identify one of the two people in the conversation (she reasoned out who the other must be, but never actually saw her), the DA's office could easily conclude that the incident was nothing but a school fight gone wrong (which is essentially true) and keep the charges minimal; they'll certainly have no problem, IMO, accepting a plea bargain down to assault.

(The theft and sale of the laptop probably will lead to separate charges against someone, but we don't even know if it was one of the perps who grabbed it, or whether it'd be a plausible defense (or even the truth) that the guy who sold it simply pulled it out of the trash bin and didn't know its origin.)

Things ARE proceeding on the case -- we just learned last chapter, in connection with Jody, that Debbie's been in touch with the Tuckers' attorney offering Jody as a witness on Tuck's behalf if it becomes necessary. Jody convinced Debbie, at least, that she wasn't one of the attackers (which isn't true) and can probably "weasel out", as Debbie put it, of her original charges.

Quote:

Probably enough charges to make the three strikes if you add in hate crimes. The spray painting of Tuck's car could be used as evidence of a hate crime. Facing fifteen years in prison if any of the seniors were over eighteen is so serious that somebody would of told all in an attempt to get a deal, minimize their participation, and be a witness for the state.

Please.

As far as I know, we're about two years before Three Strikes legislation anywhere -- and at least six years before it was voted on in Ohio. Anyway, as I understand it, it requires three separate incidents, not multiple counts in the course of one crime, since it was passed as a punishment for habitual criminals, not one-timers.

Furthermore, I believe it's already been noted here that hate crimes laws in 1997 -- and still, I think, in much of the Midwest -- don't cover sexual preference.

Also, most of these people aren't over 18, though the seniors will turn 18 during the school year. They can be charged as adults anyway, but since it happened at a school, I'm inclined to doubt that the authorities will do so. (I suppose they could have been held back a year and therefore be older, but I doubt that the seniors, at least, among these guys would still be going to school if that were the case, since they'd most likely be out of sports eligibility.)

Quote:

What is the school doing? Has anyone been expelled yet? Do schools really have to wait for due-process and have a conviction from a court?

Not quite, but if they make an arbitrary decision they can be sued. The cheerleaders were suspended from extracurricular activities and probably still are, since Dobson said they'd have to prove their innocence to be reinstated. We haven't heard about the guys (and the girl who apparently was waiting outside the bathroom door; Bill was told that his injunctions were delivered against five people), but I'm guessing they're suspended rather than expelled.

Quote:

OR Ellen could be setting the attackers up for revenge by Bill Tucker. We know Bill can do violence. Can Bill Tucker do undetectable subtle violence? Or is it just going to be unsubtle and non-lethal. Hack Attack! Erase all their records and make them nonentities? Imagine every traffic stop shows them being unlicensed or having warrants out for their arrest. Sick the lawyers on them and bankrupt them? Wipe out their college funds? So little time, so many targets of opportunity.

Again, very premature. The Tuckers won't do anything until and unless these folks slide through the court system. (And I doubt that they'll do anything to the cheerleaders unless they continue to offend -- Bill and Mike agreed that they weren't the real problem.) The Tuckers certainly won't do anything yet that could lead to suspicion of criminal activity on their part as revenge, since they'd be the primary suspects in the case of computer attack. I think that'd be true even if it wasn't provable. The Tuckers -- even more than the average family -- would greatly prefer not to be the subject of a criminal investigation.

I initially thought (as you suggest here) that they'd try to get the cheerleaders and male attackers to turn against each other, and then try to break up each group. But it doesn't seem to be happening, and it's probably unnecessary at this point.

Eric
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5503] Sat, 10 November 2007 08:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Look, I am definitely *not* a lawyer, I don't even know that much about the U.S. judicial system, but...

I doubt that the "three strikes" rule (if there's one in Ohio, that is -- the only info I have in the subject is that it's a state law thing, and not all states have it) is intended to be used for three different criminal charges resulting from the same event. It's far more likely that it is triggered by three different events.


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5505] Sat, 10 November 2007 16:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Erik wrote on Fri, 09 November 2007 23:03

What are the courts and the school doing?


Having been involved (as a witness) in a case of armed robbery (*far* more serious than this incident as far as the cops and DA would be concerned) and having followed some other serious cases, I can state that unless someone pleads guilty it will likely ve well into the next year before they come to trial.

Ellen may fast track things some. In which case we might see something before Valentine's Day. On the other hand, if the courts are busy and one or more of the defense lawyers is good at foot dragging (and well paid, though that seems unlikely with this crew) Tuck could *graduate* before things are settled.
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5506] Sun, 11 November 2007 00:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
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And on a totally different subject, Tuck seems to be appreciating what I'd call serious music such as Swan Lake. With his math abilities I wonder what'd happen if he listened to something simple, a string quartet or somesuch, while following along reading the score.

There's a scene in Amadeus where Salierie looks at Mozart's music while the sound track plays them. It's the kind of thing that I can see Tuck doing, once he has the mapping of score-to-music uploaded.
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5507] Sun, 11 November 2007 02:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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If you can read music, that's quite an experience. Bach can make you dizzy. Mozart and the Beatles are kind of enlightening. Chopin, well, Chopin.... Smile

I'm bullshitting, I can't really do it but I can kind of get a glimpse of it and it is rather thrilling. Math and music have a deep relationship and the only degree I've got is in math. I'm planning to take piano at the local college in January just so I can do more of this kind of thing because it's been forty years since I had music in school.

Hugs,
Erin
Re: Music [message #5508] Sun, 11 November 2007 03:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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It certainly was interesting, having Tuck close his eyes as if envisioning the music on a basic level, as opposed to the dancing which in ballet is the end to which the music is the means. (There must be an easier way to say that.) Reminded me a little of the girl in one of Train/Pat Monahan's songs who orders sushi and just eats the rice.

It seemed, recently -- Tuck's intense dance after losing Travis -- that Tuck related to dance on as fundamental a level as he did music. (Music does seem the more directly mathematical of the two, though.)

Either way, I'd say he was obviously sincere in describing the evening's entertainment as an awesome experience.

Eric
Re: Court Cases [message #5509] Sun, 11 November 2007 04:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Brooke wrote on Sat, 10 November 2007 13:01

...if the courts are busy and one or more of the defense lawyers is good at foot dragging (and well paid, though that seems unlikely with this crew) Tuck could *graduate* before things are settled.


True enough. As we've seen in previous incidents, not all the jocks come from scummy environments like Kyle does; we've run into one or two (Frank Donner comes to mind) who certainly wouldn't have any trouble getting good privately-paid legal assistance.

Of course, whether high-profile types like Donner would accept Kyle as leader in an effort like this (assuming it actually was a follow-up to Tuck spitting in the face of one of their girlfriends and/or taunting them after eluding them this morning) certainly isn't a sure thing.

Eric
Re: Court Cases [message #5511] Sun, 11 November 2007 07:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Aside: the whole thing about appreciating music by reading the score reminds me of Lord Vetinari, who dislikes the thought of all that blowing and sweating and other human effort associated with his music... Very Happy


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Charges [message #5513] Mon, 12 November 2007 12:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Raadsel  is currently offline Raadsel
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I'm not exactly sure what charges would be brought against those that attacked Tuck but some would be quite serious. For example, while I don't know the specifics of the Ohio kidnapping laws, the fact that they took Tuck from where he was into the girl's locker room to beat him up and afterward locked him in a closet is likely enough to bring kidnapping charges. I would also expect some type of reckless endangerment charge, even though they weren't aware of Tuck's specific medical problems, it is common sense that if you beat someone bloody and then lock them in a closet that it could easily become life threatening. Not to mention, some of these guys went to elementary school with Tuck and should be aware that he has had breathing problems and missed a lot of school because of illness and from a previous beating.

Because they moved him, they ganged up on someone that is seen as much weaker, and that Tuck almost died, I can't see the DA writing this off as a school yard incident. As a good example, look at the Jena 6 cases, where the person was less severely beaten by fewer people and whose life was never in any real danger. While it is true that their might be racial motivations in the Jena 6 indictments, you still with Tuck having the "strong" jocks ganging up and beating on the weak "nerd".

Last, as Bill Tucker is a successful local business owner and is closely watching what the DA does, including sending his own attorney to observe the hearings, the DA will want to please him. This is especially true since an ISP is typically considered a media source and the DA has to worry what Bill might post on Freehold's Start Page or send to his customers around election time.
Re: Charges [message #5514] Mon, 12 November 2007 18:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Raadsel wrote on Mon, 12 November 2007 17:38

it is common sense that if you beat someone bloody and then lock them in a closet


Beaten UNCONSCIOUS and stuffed into a closet. And medical records show that, when he was treated an hour or two later, he had a skull fracture and concussion. Untreated, the swelling from a brain injury can cause permanent disability or death...

FYI.


Ellen
nosig
Re: Charges [message #5515] Tue, 13 November 2007 01:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Mon, 12 November 2007 15:38

Raadsel wrote on Mon, 12 November 2007 17:38

it is common sense that if you beat someone bloody and then lock them in a closet


Beaten UNCONSCIOUS and stuffed into a closet. And medical records show that, when he was treated an hour or two later, he had a skull fracture and concussion. Untreated, the swelling from a brain injury can cause permanent disability or death...


So can pneumothorax.

If the DA has reason to "get tough" or even just "envourage" serious plea bargaining, he can hit them with attempted murder one. And conspiracy to commit same.

Of course, that means that any good lawyer defending the perps will be doing a *lot* of foot dragging.

Then again, he might encourage his client to roll over on the others.

So the question is, just how stupidly loyal will any of the jocks be.
Re: Charges [message #5516] Tue, 13 November 2007 03:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Raadsel wrote on Mon, 12 November 2007 09:38

Because they moved him, they ganged up on someone that is seen as much weaker, and that Tuck almost died, I can't see the DA writing this off as a school yard incident. As a good example, look at the Jena 6 cases, where the person was less severely beaten by fewer people and whose life was never in any real danger. While it is true that their might be racial motivations in the Jena 6 indictments, you still with Tuck having the "strong" jocks ganging up and beating on the weak "nerd".

I'll concede that I went too far in minimizing things in my other post. But Jena is a poor comparison. (1) It takes place nearly ten years later, in a society that's moving relatively rapidly from indifference (or they-must-have-deserved-it) toward concern about school bullying and violence; (2) the racial undertone was the crucial part of Jena; violence against suspected gays doesn't push the same buttons, so to speak; (3) it was the apparent OVER-reaction in suspending the black kids that made Jena the cause celebre that it became.

Remember, we haven't hit Columbine yet. So there's still a general feeling, I think, that -- especially if firearms or switchblades aren't involved -- school violence isn't a public safety issue. If you beat somebody up without provocation, you get suspended or expelled. If there WAS provocation, they got what they deserved and you get your wrist slapped for resorting to violence. Either way, unless somebody dies, the school system can handle it without the police getting sucked in.

This particular case has to be taken more seriously, now that the police and DA's office ARE involved. But even more so than usual, plea bargaining (and handling as much of it as possible in juvenile court) is the most expedient way to get it out of the way so that the police and DA can get back to work on things the community DOES expect immediate action on.
Raadsel, continued

Last, as Bill Tucker is a successful local business owner and is closely watching what the DA does, including sending his own attorney to observe the hearings, the DA will want to please him. This is especially true since an ISP is typically considered a media source and the DA has to worry what Bill might post on Freehold's Start Page or send to his customers around election time.

On the latter issue, I think you're looking at things from too recent a point of view. In November 1997, I don't believe any mainstream politician or officeholder cared much what the presumed nutcases on the Internet were saying about them, locally or otherwise. Even the Drudge Report, when traditional news sources started quoting it around this time, was mostly a target for public ridicule, until Americans discovered (whether we cared about it or not) that it was right about Monica's dress and the mainstream media weren't.

In any case, I believe that ISPs back then were looked at as conduits for information, not sources for their owners' opinions. An unpopular opinion, after all, could lose clients. (And not without reason, since the money you were paying them was most likely indirectly supporting their favorite causes.)

Also, don't forget that at this point Bill Tucker wants to act as unthreatening as he can, while protecting his family. (His letting the police look up the class schedule of the guy with Tuck's laptop instead of doing it himself was one example that Ellen actually showed us.) The last thing he wants is a DA's office or police force investigating him or Tuck for payback purposes.

Eric
Re: Charges [message #5519] Tue, 13 November 2007 15:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mthead  is currently offline mthead
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Oh, please, sheeple, get the facts not the racist hype. The Jena 6 farce is appropriate analogy but not like is being portrayed here (and elsewhere). The infamous nooses were in the tree for 6 weeks prior to the incident, left there after the pep rally to beat a football team called the "Cowboys". The Jena 6 cornered a boy in the school, locked the doors and beat him severely. If you look at the arrest records of the assailants you will find multiple arrest for violent behavior. I'm not a Louisana native but have lived about an hour from Jena for the last 16 years. In all my time in this state I have seen a lot of racist attitude and 90% comes from the black population. If it were not for race mongering Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would have to get out and work for a living like you and I. Actually, I like Al Sharpton but he needs to get a better organization around him as this is his third really bad blunder in the last few years.
Re: Charges [message #5520] Tue, 13 November 2007 20:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Calling people names here is not allowed and can lead to being banned. It's also the wrong way to make a point you really want taken seriously.

I found one blog by a white guy in Mississippi that contains a version of your account of what happened. Neither of you identified the city of the supposed "Cowboys". Other topics in that blog suggest that the person is a libertarian-leaning, right-of-center Republican. Which could also describe me, depending on what litmus tests are being used. Smile

Anyone can see for themselves: http://southerncrown.blogspot.com/ The first blog is killer. Smile

I found other sites that seem to be quoting this blog above or perhaps this blog's uncredited source; none of them that I've found identify the school or city of the supposed Cowboys team. Missing details like that repeated over and over smell like what a cowboy might step in to me. Or a sheepherder. Smile

The other mention of Cowboys and Jena on the web that I can find is that one of the DALLAS, Cowboys is from Jena.

Topic closed unless Ellen wants to say something. Otherwise, this runs on my server and I make the rules about public discussions. Send me a PM if you want to argue with me about it.

- Erin

[Updated on: Tue, 13 November 2007 20:38]

Re: Cowboys (sorry) [message #5521] Wed, 14 November 2007 05:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Feel free to kill this, Erin, as per your announcement. But for the record, here's the complete football season for the Jena Giants, as reported by la.prepcountry.com . Team nicknames are from the homepages for each team, and not a Cowboy among 'em:

Aug 31 Fri -- Marksville Tigers//(Lost 12-41)
Sep 07 Fri -- Iowa Yellow Jackets//(Won 12-6)
Sep 14 Fri -- Block Bears//(Won 37-6)
Sep 21 Fri -- Ferriday Trojans//(Lost 22-38)
Sep 28 Fri -- Vidalia Vikings//(Lost 6-32)
Oct 05 Fri -- Iota Bulldogs//(Lost 0-14)
Oct 12 Fri -- Oak Grove Tiger [sic]//(Lost 6-35)
Oct 19 Fri -- Caldwell Parish Spartans//(Lost 12-15)
Oct 26 Fri -- North DeSoto Griffins//(Won 37-8)
Nov 02 Fri -- Winnfield Tigers//(Lost 6-35)

(Guess it's not that surprising to see so many Tigers, since that's LSU's team name.)

Eric

[Updated on: Wed, 14 November 2007 05:11]

Re: Cowboys (sorry) [message #5523] Wed, 14 November 2007 12:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Okay, facts are allowed. Smile

I've got a similar list from another source, too, though both are 2007, not 2006.

- Erin
Re: Charges [message #5524] Thu, 15 November 2007 05:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Raadsel  is currently offline Raadsel
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My purpose in bringing up Jena was not to suggest a minority angle or anything else, rather that is was a relatively simple schoolyard brawl where a few ganged up on one and the DA filed serious adult criminal charges -- to the point that a sneaker was identified as a potential murder weapon. In Tuck's case it was not a simple schoolyard brawl. It was a premeditated attack to ambush and, in essence, kidnap and beat Tuck.

As for no one dying, Tuck's heart stopped and was shocked three times before it started again. Further, Tuck was known to be missing before the final attack (the one by the cheerleaders) occurred. I also seem to recall that in Tuck's case the attackers were 18, though I can't find that now, so they could not be referred to Juvenile court.

And, actually, my thought about the ISP was based on the mid-nineties. I wasn't thinking of news or a concerted campaign against the DA. Rather that in those days before news portals became popular on the web, local ISPs (as well as the national ones) would run a page designed to be a home and help page for their subscribers. Since Win95 had no build in web browser, ISPs provided the browser software to their customers with their webpage preset as the customers homepage. Most customers did not change this, typically from a lack of knowledge of how to do it or why they would want to (as you've pointed out, many of the news and portal pages people use today were not in existence).

As such, Bill running a simple message around election day saying they might want to remember the attack in the High School (not sure if Bill would make it personal and that it was his son or more a third-person story) and that the student had died for a minute before being they could revive him. If he merely mentioned what the DA had done (or hadn't done) in a factual way and that people might remember that at the polls would likely not bother the majority of his customers but could be quite effective.

Last, you might be right that Bill wouldn't try it because he wouldn't want his customers looking at his politics too closely, but Bill wouldn't tell the DA that. And a DA typically won't gamble on the business owner not working against him, especially when that business owner's child was almost killed. While Bill might have used the threat as a bluff, it would be a bluff the DA would not want to call him on (and we know that Bill bluffs extremely well).
Re: Charges [message #5525] Thu, 15 November 2007 15:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mthead  is currently offline mthead
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I humbly accept my chastisement and apologize to all. Embarassed I was addressing no one in particular and I broke the cardinal rule of posting/email by doing it at an emotional time. I posted at a point in which I was particularly pissed by this nation’s well intentioned but misguided willingness to be manipulated by the press, pandering politicians and powerful special/self interest. I misremembered what I thought I knew. Confused After checking with the person I know with family attending the school in which the event occurred, I erred in that the events surrounded the rodeo team not the football team. He referred me to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena_Six]and said it was a fairly accurate account of the history leading up to the subsequent events.
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5526] Fri, 16 November 2007 06:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brutus  is currently offline Brutus
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mkemp wrote on Sat, 10 November 2007 21:08

And on a totally different subject, Tuck seems to be appreciating what I'd call serious music such as Swan Lake. With his math abilities I wonder what'd happen if he listened to something simple, a string quartet or somesuch, while following along reading the score.


I don't believe Tuck is able to read the type of sheet music involved in chamber music. He'd have to be able to follow a conductors score, which is a fairly complicated document. In my long past youth I played a few different instruments and I know from experience just how different the scores are. A clarinet is different from a bass clarinet, and both are much different from a bassoon. I can read all three, but it does take me a minute or two to 'switch gears', so when somebody like Tuck, with no formal training in music is handed a conductors score, there is no chance he'd understand it. I can't, and I started piano lessons at age 9 and continued playing (and learning) all the way through high school.

On the other hand, nobody needs to know how to read music in order to appreciate it. Closing your eyes and drifting along with the music is something I've done many times. Wanting to shoot the arsehole who is talking or munching potatoe chips in the audience is also something I've done... just like Tuck.

For the record, my favourite types of music are Baroque and Gregorian chants. And I close my eyes while listening to the Gregorian stuff.
Re: Charges [message #5527] Fri, 16 November 2007 06:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brutus  is currently offline Brutus
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Raadsel wrote on Mon, 12 November 2007 09:38

I'm not exactly sure what charges would be brought against those that attacked Tuck but some would be quite serious.


IMHO, the main charge would be aggravated assault while committing a robbery. Fairly serious criminal charge carrying a jail term, not a simple fine and probation. However, I'm Canadian and don't really know how American law would apply.

Quote:

I would also expect some type of reckless endangerment charge, even though they weren't aware of Tuck's specific medical problems, it is common sense that if you beat someone bloody and then lock them in a closet that it could easily become life threatening.


Yes, and if Tuck had died, it would have upped the charges to second degree murder, which would have been plea bargained down to manslaughter.

Quote:

I can't see the DA writing this off as a school yard incident.


I disagree. I've seen prosecutors try stranger things. All a prosecutor cares about is results. If they can get somebody to plead guilty without having to take it to trial, they will, even if it lets serious criminals get off with just slaps on the wrist. In real life money talks. A crime committed against a "nobody" is handled a heck of a lot differently than a crime against a "somebody". Conversely, a 'somebody' can get away with stuff a 'nobody' can't. Been there, done that, got away with a lecture.


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Last, as Bill Tucker is a successful local business owner and is closely watching what the DA does, including sending his own attorney to observe the hearings, the DA will want to please him. This is especially true since an ISP is typically considered a media source and the DA has to worry what Bill might post on Freehold's Start Page or send to his customers around election time.


The only reason the DA would pay attention to Bill Tucker is because Tucker is paying his own attorney to show up in court. Without his own attorney there, the DA would be handling the case just like any other case, and the perps would have made bail easily. Just another case of revolving door justice. Pay the clerk on the way out please. Sorry for being so cynical, but I've been in the back room at the police station a few times and I've heard the bitching regular cops do about the way court systems work. Squeaky wheels get grease and politics trump fairness.

About Tucker being an ISP owner... so what? How much of his business is local? And even if all of it was, again, so what? The ISP only hosts clients, it doesn't control what the client is putting on their website. Heck, I live in Canada and the ISP I use for my site is located way down south in California. 40000 MB and nobody on my site knows anything about my ISP. Because ISP's are not seen or heard. They're invisible (until they screw up).
Re: Charges [message #5528] Fri, 16 November 2007 07:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
Messages: 440
Registered: October 2003
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Senior Member
That may be true of webhosting customers, but it's not true of dial-up access customers -- which in 1997 were the majority by far (very few people with broadband back then). Dial-up depends on having local access infrastructure. So, most Domain customers should be local. Bill may have some long-distance business in the webhosting arena, but his access customers are in the few (maybe just one) area codes where he has dial-up infrastructure set up.


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Charges [message #5529] Fri, 16 November 2007 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brutus  is currently offline Brutus
Messages: 12
Registered: October 2007
Location: Marathon, Ont, Canada
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Thinking about what you say re way back then... Very Happy
You could be right about dial up customers. I can only speak for myself of course, and I've almost always had cable access, so I don't really know how small ISP's work. And for the record, I've never used the infamous AOL (because they added a 15 cent a minute surcharge on Canadian customers). But because I'm a contrary type (or as my wife puts it, mule headed!!!) I've always set my browser to open to a blank page rather than the ISPs home page.

That raises an interesting question. How many people here go blindly to their ISP's home page rather than to their own choice? And would that apply to Tucks world?

I still can't see it as being a factor in the way a DA would treat a case. But I'll admit I'm biased, we don't elect our "D.A." or our judges up here. Canadians do it differently...
Re: Charges [message #5535] Tue, 20 November 2007 00:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Brutus wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 03:52

IMHO, the main charge would be aggravated assault while committing a robbery. Fairly serious criminal charge carrying a jail term, not a simple fine and probation. However, I'm Canadian and don't really know how American law would apply.


Given laptop prices in 97 (a couple of grand, easily), it's almost certainly grand theft. Which is more serious than the usual petty theft.

BTW, given my experiences knowing a few ex-cons, if the perps draw any sort of serious jail time or especially prison time (state pen as opposed to local jail) and the Tuckers feel they deserve a really *nasty* time in jail, finding a way to get word that they were involved in rape or in child molestation will make their time "inside" *very* unpleasant.

(And yes, I was suprised to find out that rapists aren't well thought of in prison, But apparently the attitude is that anybody who can't get laid without force isn't much of a man)
Re: Charges [message #5539] Thu, 22 November 2007 05:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
Brooke wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 21:20

Given laptop prices in 97 (a couple of grand, easily), it's almost certainly grand theft.

Actually, Tuck talked (09:49, 28 July) about getting a laptop, albeit a slow one, for the "at least" $500 he had in his bank account, and then discovered (11:50 2 Aug) that his parents were willing to match his expenditure. So it seems unlikely to me that it cost the Tuckers more than, say, $1200 to $1300. (It probably retailed higher, and the security features they installed after getting it presumably would have increased its asset value.)

That's still grand theft, if the DA can prove it, but since it wasn't the primary motive here and we don't even know whether the attackers ended up with the laptop, it's not going to be as easy to establish as the assault. True, if they stole it and threw it away it's still a robbery, but if the attackers can argue that Tuck discarded it during the fight and that some opportunist later picked it up and sold it, the prosecutors probably wouldn't be able to prove otherwise.

That's assuming one of the original four wasn't the seller. We can be fairly sure that it wasn't Kyle, and since it was a guy it couldn't have been Person #5 waiting outside the men's room, since I think it was established at some point that #5 was female. Still three other suspects, of course, and if the attackers fenced it and the guy who got it turns on them, that'd be almost as good.

But this is stuff that the police, the D.A., Bill Tucker and the family attorney all know; it's just us readers who are still in the dark.

Eric
Re: Charges [message #5542] Fri, 23 November 2007 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
Messages: 684
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Kids, the legal points about 'the first attackers vs. Tuck' were explained in a previous episode, #117. Go reread.


Ellen
nosig
Re: Charges [message #5544] Fri, 23 November 2007 22:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brutus  is currently offline Brutus
Messages: 12
Registered: October 2007
Location: Marathon, Ont, Canada
Junior Member
Brooke wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 21:20



(And yes, I was suprised to find out that rapists aren't well thought of in prison, But apparently the attitude is that anybody who can't get laid without force isn't much of a man)



Most people in prison are just normal people. And many of them have families. Wives, kids, etc... So when they see a child molester or a rapist, they tend to remember their families. Families who are living on the outside, unprotected...

Sex Offenders in Prison [message #5546] Tue, 27 November 2007 07:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
As I understand it, prisoners are more scared about their own safety in being in forced proximity to a sex offender. Their assumptions that all sex offenders can't control themselves and that all sexual perverts and outlaws aren't particularly fussy about which gender they assault, lead to pre-emptive physical attacks by prisoners who consider themselves potential prey and figure that violence will solve their problem.

Eric

[Updated on: Tue, 27 November 2007 09:03]

Suspensions and Expulsions [message #5547] Tue, 27 November 2007 08:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
Ellen Hayes wrote on Fri, 23 November 2007 15:15

Kids, the legal points about 'the first attackers vs. Tuck' were explained in a previous episode, #117. Go reread.

Thanks, Ellen.

That chapter also indicates that the cheerleaders' extracurricular-activities suspensions were lifted the day before the student strike. (Because these were losses of privileges and none of the cheerleaders had "been suspended from the student's normal instructional activities for discipline reasons (emphasis mine)," the time restrictions noted below presumably don't apply -- though as it happens they weren't exceeded here.)

The attackers (Kyle Dawson, James Yancey, two other males whose names we weren't given) were suspended from school (we found out in #108) right after Tuck identified them; two of them made bail immediately (also in #108) from their assault/robbery charges, but Dobson's comments suggested that they'd be refused entrance if they tried to return to McAllen. However, Dobson said they were "suspended", not "expelled"; the latter can only be done by the schools superintendent for the district. (Not that it'd be a problem in this case -- the attackers indisputably violated several provisions that'd appear in any Code of Student Conduct -- but there's red tape involved in an expulsion that probably couldn't have been completed by the time of Dobson's statement.)

(For one such conduct code -- from a Cincinnati district -- see http://oakhills.k12.oh.us/district/board/conduct.html. It's dated 2004, but based on the revision dates at bottom, the original version of it predates 1997.)

From information in the (1998) Ohio educational database reporting rules http://www2.oecn.k12.oh.us/www/emis/1998/emis_guide_contents.html, 4.1.2.7 and 4.1.2.8 -- it appears that a principal in Ohio can't suspend a student for more than ten school days. Even expulsion (for a student under age 18, at least) isn't permanent; it's limited to 80 school days (16 weeks). Presumably the superintendent can order a transfer to a different school after that, and of course further violations would bring further discipline. (Jail/prison/juvenile correction facility time, of course, is a separate matter.)

A female lookout also was charged with the attack (and included in the restraining order against future contact with Tuck). Since we know that Tuck didn't identify her, she must have been implicated by one of the four male attackers. We haven't been told whether she's still allowed to attend school, assuming she or her parents bailed her out. Dobson wouldn't have had her name yet at the time we heard about the suspensions.

Eric
Car Trouble? [message #5550] Mon, 03 December 2007 07:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
Ellen made bad weather conditions an important part of this episode. Anybody here think that she's setting things up for car-and-weather-related difficulty for Tuck and Pam on the way back to Rachel's and then the Tucker house?

Considering that Pam's already been in one car crash this week, a second such event ought to seriously shake her up emotionally, though it seems more repetitive than I'd expect from Ellen.

And of course we've already had the discussion in the story -- mostly unresolved -- between Tuck and his parents about the ramifications of Val driving under circumstances where she'd need to display Tuck's driver's license to police in the event of an accident. (It'd be hard to make anything tonight happen outside the city limits where Deputy Sheriff Carstairs could respond, though that ought to make a cute fanfic...)

Eric
Re: "If ballet were easy, they'd call it football." [message #5814] Sun, 08 June 2008 02:41 Go to previous message
stanman  is currently offline stanman
Messages: 292
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
Personally, I think that in all likelyhood, that even if the attackers are punished by the courts, that Bill Tucker will condone some sort of retribution against them that can't be traced to Tuck.
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