Home » Tuck Talk » Chapter discussion of Tuck Season... » Seasons #16
Seasons #16 [message #6847] Sun, 29 May 2011 09:51 Go to next message
OtteryLexa  is currently offline OtteryLexa
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Quote:

"Some how, some way, Tuck needs a beating," Mike told Dan.

Confused
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6848] Sun, 29 May 2011 14:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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I'm a fan of using Debbie's name as a verb. But is it a killing word?
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6849] Mon, 30 May 2011 06:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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If that's some reference to the bastardization of Dune by David Lynch, the answer is 'no'.

However, being "debbie'd" may lead you to contemplate suicide later...

Ellen
nosig
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6853] Mon, 30 May 2011 21:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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I can't help but think "Muad'Debbie" when they talk about her special powers.
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6854] Tue, 31 May 2011 07:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
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Could somebody refresh my memory:
-did Tuck receive the synth last Christmas or the one upcoming;
-does Jane have a piano in her front room?

I had an evil thought: Val asks permission to use piano then breaks out with some of the songs she had practiced. 'Course, a Scott Joplin rag or some honky-tonk (parts of The Entertainer keep going through my mind.) .

Nah, never happen. That's not Val's music, but the image of Val at an upright piano wearing sleazy-'30s-nightclub attire just screams, uh, something like nothing else does (short skirt, fishnets with mid-thigh garters, loose satin blouse, beauty patch on one cheek; not quite "mindfuck," but close).

Or Val in a red sequined dress and shoes belting out '40s torch songs.

I better stop now or Ellen, Mike, Tuck and the rest of the Boyz will show up with baseball bats.
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I wonder how Darryl/Darla dealt with Art/Diana and the medicos? I hope Ellen tells us.

[Updated on: Tue, 31 May 2011 07:42]

Re: Seasons #16 [message #6855] Tue, 31 May 2011 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtteryLexa  is currently offline OtteryLexa
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To the best of my recollection:
Tuck received the synth the first christmas. He'd been planning to get it with the money from Lisa for going out with Travis, but his family beat him to it.

Jane does have a piano in one of the downstairs rooms. I recall an episode where she teaches one of the students to sing. That could have been Caitlyn, I'm not sure. Of course, she may have removed it before Tuck arrived (though that seems highly unlikely to me) or not yet acquired it (if it was in "A Time For Every Season" - Tigger, c.1998) which is after Tucky Seasons in the timeline.

Kate Bishop saw Val as a 40's torch singer, as you suggest. I don't know what one of those is myself, though.

I got the impression that the music Tuck plays on the synth is not the music he listens to otherwise, being more towards the classical end. Is he learning out of a book? I don't recall. But then I think his tastes are expanding in the direction of classical anyway (c.f. the trips to the ballet and the concert, though I think they are after this summer).

I don't think Val has had the time to play on Jane's piano yet, but I could see Jane offering to accompany her when she does her singing practice/homework in the next couple of days, and leading from there.

[Updated on: Tue, 31 May 2011 10:52]

Re: Seasons #16 [message #6856] Tue, 31 May 2011 14:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torch_song

"A torch song is a sentimental love song, typically one in which the singer laments an unrequited or lost love, either where one party is oblivious to the existence of the other, where one party has moved on, or where a romantic affair has affected the relationship. The term comes from the saying 'to carry a torch for someone', or to keep aflame the light of an unrequited love."

The article has a bunch of names but the one I 'hear' Val sounding like with her contralto voice is Judy Garland in The Wizard of Oz. Her plaintive, wistful "Over the Rainbow" still brings tears to my eyes.

Oh, and it must have been your imagination (or the story we don't talk about[0]) that showed Kate thinking of Val as a torch singer because this was their first meeting.

[0] TSTSNB - The Story That Shall Not Be Named
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6857] Tue, 31 May 2011 15:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtteryLexa  is currently offline OtteryLexa
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When Kate first met Val and Jane in the dress shop, and recruited Val for the choir:

"part07"


Kate's imagination stuffed the girl into a black cocktail dress,
with over-the-elbow gloves, her hair done up into a 1940s pompadour, and
the stark simplistic makeup of the period. *Ohhhh, YES. Torch singer!*


Razz

This was their second meeting (Val missed the first practice for the choir 'cause she was AWOL, and this is the second, which she made).

[Updated on: Tue, 31 May 2011 15:20]

Re: Seasons #16 [message #6858] Tue, 31 May 2011 16:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
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Darn, I forgot about that. Thanks.
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6861] Wed, 01 June 2011 22:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

Could somebody refresh my memory:
-did Tuck receive the synth last Christmas or the one upcoming;
-does Jane have a piano in her front room?


There has only been one December so far, 1996. It was well before the split, so tuck has it. But I think most of tuck's practice was over the summer or since school started up. He might not be that good after only 3-4 months of practice.

The existence of Jane's piano is more difficult.
Caitlyn played piano when she couldn't dance.
Carol started lessons.

In "Second Season", Miss Marie plays a piano in the "five years later" epilogue. But seeing as how the name of Michael's wife is retconed I don't know if that scene holds even if his attempted suicide is mentioned later to Audrey.

In "A Time to Every Season", Darla and Miss Marie both play the piano which is explicitly mentioned as being in the "Music Room"


The timeline is kinda sketchy but I'm always trying to reconstruct it. Darryl is Caitlyn's big sister when she has troubles which puts Jane back in touch with Art. She graduates at her troop's spring performance, in time for her friend to go to summer camp. Then Carl is Darryl's litter sister when his adoption happens that Christmas. Then Darryl is John's big sister, who's Charlie's big sister who's Tuck's big sister when tuck arrives on at the end of May.

So I suspect there is a piano in the house, since at least one student was expected to learn before Tuck's arrival. Also, I don't know where Darryl would have learned otherwise. I doubt his brother would have given him lessons.

Victor places all the other stories after 9/11. He's the big sister for Benny who's the big sister for Jesse, who was the resident big sister during Michael's wedding who's engagement was announced during Darryl's wedding.

Tuck is there in '97, and Darryl is preparing to go to college. Then he's preparing to go to med school when he meets Audrey, meaning less than four years goes by between Tuck and their wedding. Darryl meets Audrey before 9/11 I suppose, but Michael's wedding is at least a year after it, meaning the "five years later" is not at all accurate.


That's way too much thought just to determine that both before and after tuck's arrival, there should be a piano there. Someone tell me if they have anything to add or correct about my timeline. I'm still not sure when Jane married Art. They eloped sometime after Caitlyn but before Tuck. He wasn't mentioned at all in Carol, but Darryl hadn't been adopted before Caitlyn.
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6864] Thu, 02 June 2011 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stanman  is currently offline stanman
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Love how Tuck keeps a mystery going with those pads. And how he has shown Shar how to solve a jane problem before it crops up.
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6869] Tue, 07 June 2011 05:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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mkemp wrote on Tue, 31 May 2011 21:29

Darn, I forgot about that. Thanks.

Thhhphphphffffbbbbbb!!!

Ellen
nosig
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6870] Tue, 07 June 2011 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtteryLexa  is currently offline OtteryLexa
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Re-reading, I have some new thoughts.
Quote:


He wriggled backwards until his body was against Kenneth's, and
Kenneth absently patted Darryl's body a couple of times.


Darla and Kenneth are getting pretty comfortable together. And pretending to feel something can make you more likely to feel it. Do you think they might develop a bit of a romance for real here, particularly with the oblivious Val pushing Darla on.

Quote:


"Valerie," Darla said from the bedroom behind him, "may I remind
you that you are not that feminine, and you could use the help?"


I'm guessing this is propaganda, i.e. trying to unsettle her.

Quote:


"DRIVER!" Valerie shrieked from somewhere out of sight. "THE ENEMY
AWAITS! ANGREIFEN!"


*laughs* That should be "Greif an!" though. http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/angreifen Tuck's not very good at German.

Quote:


"I thought we saw her naked, either the first or second day," Jane
mused.


Did they? I can't remember clearly, but I don't think they did.

Quote:


Valerie indicated the thermos. "First one's free... then I start
having to pay for 'em, then I have to buy a special cup or something,
then the price goes up, and I start selling 'em to other kids..."


Has Val made this joke before? Ah, I think she used it on Mrs. Parker with respect to breakfasts, in the main storyline.

We get another case of Val looking after Charlene with the episode in the restaurant. I forget why, but she's comforted Charlene while she cried before.

At the dress shop, Val shows she knows more about how women do clothes than expected, and is much more at ease than anyone else they've taken there. I wonder how much of that Diana and Darla picked up. Will be interesting to see the after-action analysis session.

And finally, Val shows her general competence with the medical issues. Val says they will make their own way back; will they just get a cab straight away, or go off and do something else unexpected (get a lift from Pauline?).

Re: Seasons #16 [message #6871] Tue, 07 June 2011 21:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtteryLexa  is currently offline OtteryLexa
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Tue, 07 June 2011 10:49


Thhhphphphffffbbbbbb!!!


Gosh, Ellen, you're so refined! Jane Thompson would be impressed. ;~/
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6872] Tue, 07 June 2011 23:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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OtteryLexa wrote on Tue, 07 June 2011 21:31

Re-reading, I have some new thoughts.
Quote:


He wriggled backwards until his body was against Kenneth's, and
Kenneth absently patted Darryl's body a couple of times.


Darla and Kenneth are getting pretty comfortable together. And pretending to feel something can make you more likely to feel it. Do you think they might develop a bit of a romance for real here, particularly with the oblivious Val pushing Darla on.


WARNING: "SEASONS" CANON SPOILERS BELOW

I doubt that will go very far -- Both Darryl and Kenneth are happily married men in Tigger's "Seasons" canon, and from a few things that Ellen has said in the past my impression is that she wants to keep "Tuck Season" canon-compatible.

But, in a way, they are kind like brothers -- both have been taken under Jane's wing after problems with their families. I don't remember if Kenneth was formally adopted, but Darryl was.


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6873] Wed, 08 June 2011 00:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtteryLexa  is currently offline OtteryLexa
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I'm aware of what you're saying, I've been re-reading all the Seasons stories. I was thinking more of a fling than a permanent relationship. Darryl ends up with a very butch woman, after all, so it's not too much of a stretch if Ellen wants to play with that idea. (I admit this tree is rather epileptic).

They are members of an extremely exclusive fraternity. The initiation is a doozy.

[Updated on: Wed, 08 June 2011 00:03]

Re: Seasons #16 [message #6874] Wed, 08 June 2011 05:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

I don't remember if Kenneth was formally adopted

Kenneth was adopted by Judge Ruth.

Quote:

I was thinking more of a fling than a permanent relationship. Darryl ends up with a very butch woman, after all

They're just too much like brothers. Daryl was Kenneth's big sister after all. Plus Kenneth has too many serious mental and physical problems to go screwing with his head like that. Darla is trying to get Kenneth to open up and relax, like with the great tea party.

Also, is this within the time period where Kenneth is going overboard with the body building?
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6875] Fri, 10 June 2011 11:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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OtteryLexa wrote on Wed, 08 June 2011 02:02

Ellen Hayes wrote on Tue, 07 June 2011 10:49


Thhhphphphffffbbbbbb!!!


Gosh, Ellen, you're so refined! Jane Thompson would be impressed. ;~/

Me an' Jane is like matter and antimatter - if we get too close (ignoring the fictionality of at least one of us) there will be a larger-than-thermonuclear reaction and people will die in the ensuing explosion.

Ellen
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6876] Sun, 12 June 2011 07:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
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Oh. My. &Deity.

I just realized that Val has Darla's purse,
in which is probably Darla's wallet,
in which is probably Darla's credit card,
for which Val has the PIN.

Now what, he asks innocently, might happen?

Hark, did I hear an evil giggle off in the distance?
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6877] Sun, 12 June 2011 12:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtteryLexa  is currently offline OtteryLexa
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Quote:

for which Val has the PIN.

She does? I don't recall that.

However, it probably does also have _Darryl_'s driving license. But I don't think I see Val going through Darla's purse right now. I think she would see it as bad faith, now that they have a contract.
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6878] Sun, 12 June 2011 12:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
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OtteryLexa wrote on Sun, 12 June 2011 09:03

Quote:

for which Val has the PIN.

She does? I don't recall that.

However, it probably does also have _Darryl_'s driving license. But I don't think I see Val going through Darla's purse right now. I think she would see it as bad faith, now that they have a contract.


Part 13, when Darla got the cash for the $200 initial contract payment.

Quote:


"I suppose," Darla said, sounding about as enthusiastic as she had all day, which was not much at all. But when she moved forward and started interfacing with the ATM, she got out a lot more than two hundred dollars.
Of course, she didn't shield her PIN entry from anyone, much less the other two in the car, and Tucker knew he wouldn't be able to get rid of it for a month.

Re: Seasons #16 [message #6879] Sun, 12 June 2011 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtteryLexa  is currently offline OtteryLexa
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OK, yeah, I'd completely forgotten that bit.
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6880] Tue, 14 June 2011 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
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OtteryLexa wrote on Sun, 12 June 2011 09:03

<Darla's purse and ATM card>
However, it probably does also have _Darryl_'s driving license. But I don't think I see Val going through Darla's purse right now. I think she would see it as bad faith, now that they have a contract.


Now that you mention it, I think you're right.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Val show up with an itemized list of all the things she thinks Jane's place needs: something for the stairs, smoke detectors, carbon monoxide detectors, fire extinguishers, serious first aid kit. Maybe with a plan to upgrade the security system. She might buy a good sharpening stone for her own use, too.
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6881] Wed, 15 June 2011 07:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stanman  is currently offline stanman
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As I recall from Rachel's fanfic, Val and Mike spent quit a bit of time there upgrading the pace's security systems, and quite possibly the other stuff as well.
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6882] Wed, 15 June 2011 20:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtteryLexa  is currently offline OtteryLexa
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mkemp wrote on Tue, 14 June 2011 22:49


I wouldn't be surprised to see Val show up with an itemized list of all the things she thinks Jane's place needs: something for the stairs, smoke detectors, carbon monoxide detectors, fire extinguishers, serious first aid kit. Maybe with a plan to upgrade the security system. She might buy a good sharpening stone for her own use, too.



This list?
Tucky Seasons Pt 14


"And start writing up deficiencies," because this house was, on closer inspection, a deathtrap waiting to kill someone; he hadn't found a first aid kit OR a smoke detector OR a fire extinguisher ANYWHERE, much less a carbon monoxide detector around the stove or the basement furnace
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6884] Thu, 16 June 2011 00:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
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Yep.

On a different note, I wonder if Val might show off a bit by locking her stuff (except for the "purse" and laptop) in her room when leaving the house. Cue multitude of questions about where she got the key.

Nah. Don't let 'em know your capabilities.
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6885] Thu, 16 June 2011 00:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

I wouldn't be surprised to see Val show up with an itemized list of all the things she thinks Jane's place needs: something for the stairs, smoke detectors, carbon monoxide detectors, fire extinguishers, serious first aid kit. Maybe with a plan to upgrade the security system. She might buy a good sharpening stone for her own use, too.

Those things are all good for after something goes wrong. If things get that far, they are probably screwed any ways. A single knife will make a scout sloppy. A single fire extinguisher would do the same thing. They have to work that much harder because they know they are working without a net.

I also wonder how much trouble a student could get into with a fire extinguisher. If they have a smoke detector in their room they might decide to have fun pushing the test button in the middle of the night. Or they might be tempted to test it in other more obvious ways.

Might the anachronistic environment help reinforce the feeling of danger. They can't act out or because it isn't safe. It might cause them to reveal their true identity, but it also might cause them to get hurt. The location LOOKS like it way out in the country, away from hospitals and police stations, so the student thinks they are alone. There's no one to help them.

Is this part of Tuck's problem? Is he so used to the world being safe and controlled that he doesn't feel the need to control himself? This is going to be a HUGE problem, Tuck doesn't feel the need to change his core behaviour. He's still assuming everyone else should change their behaviour.

How is this different from some little sexist punk trying to get all the women to act the way he thinks they should act?
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6886] Thu, 16 June 2011 02:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtteryLexa  is currently offline OtteryLexa
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Doragoon wrote on Thu, 16 June 2011 05:27


Those things are all good for after something goes wrong. If things get that far, they are probably screwed any ways. A single knife will make a scout sloppy. A single fire extinguisher would do the same thing. They have to work that much harder because they know they are working without a net.

As Tuck would say, 7Ps. Also remember Murphy's Law. Humans are fallible. You are much safer with a fire extinguisher than without, because your measurement of the increased risk is poor. You might be twice as careful without one, but the situation is one hundred times as dangerous[1].

Remember that Jane's philosophy is to increase perception of risk while minimising as far as possible actual risk. Also, remember that behaving according to Jane's program is supposed to be the solution to the perceived risk. No part of wearing feminine sleepwear compensates for the risk of the house burning down in the middle of the night.

Quote:

I also wonder how much trouble a student could get into with a fire extinguisher. If they have a smoke detector in their room they might decide to have fun pushing the test button in the middle of the night. Or they might be tempted to test it in other more obvious ways.


This ought to be dealt with by conventional punishments. There's nothing to stop a student throwing a chair through the window or flooding the bathroom either.

Quote:

Might the anachronistic environment help reinforce the feeling of danger. They can't act out or because it isn't safe. It might cause them to reveal their true identity, but it also might cause them to get hurt. The location LOOKS like it way out in the country, away from hospitals and police stations, so the student thinks they are alone. There's no one to help them.


Remember the fact that if there is a serious medical problem, more than can be dealt with by the nurse, the program falls apart. Jane needs to avoid physical risk as much as practical. In fact the horses seems kind of risky to me.

Quote:

Is this part of Tuck's problem? Is he so used to the world being safe and controlled that he doesn't feel the need to control himself? This is going to be a HUGE problem, Tuck doesn't feel the need to change his core behaviour. He's still assuming everyone else should change their behaviour.


I think that's the opposite of Tuck's view: he sees the world as fundamentally hostile, and has elaborate military-style procedures and functional paranoia for coping with it.

The fact that he is coming to feel safer dressed as Val than as Tuck is telling here, and is the primary problem faced by Jane's program as regards to Tuck. Nobody chases Val with a baseball bat with intent to cause grievous bodily harm.

He does have problems with pushing back when scared, though he doesn't escalate from verbal to physical. Also, he berserks when severely hurt in an aggressive context. In the alternate universe where Tuck really was sent to Jane on purpose, this would look really bad to Jane (remember the historical stairway incident).

He does want people to act more rationally, but he doesn't expect it. He knows he's neuro-atypical.

Quote:

How is this different from some little sexist punk trying to get all the women to act the way he thinks they should act?


How is it the same?

1. Figures made up, obviously
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6887] Thu, 16 June 2011 02:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtteryLexa  is currently offline OtteryLexa
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mkemp wrote on Thu, 16 June 2011 05:13

Yep.

On a different note, I wonder if Val might show off a bit by locking her stuff (except for the "purse" and laptop) in her room when leaving the house. Cue multitude of questions about where she got the key.

Nah. Don't let 'em know your capabilities.


There wouldn't be much point to it, really, since 1. The lock, AFAIR is one where it needs a key from within the room, but not from outside 2. Jane and Marie have keys to the lock.

To lock her room effectively, Val would have to flip the keyed side of the lock and re-key it so that only she had a copy of the keys. Both are feasible with the tools Val has access to, but as you say, doing so would expose too much of her capabilities. She can use the organic fibre anti-intrusion device when she needs privacy, and the level of security provided by a locked bedroom door in someone else's house is not high.
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6888] Thu, 16 June 2011 03:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtteryLexa  is currently offline OtteryLexa
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OtteryLexa wrote on Wed, 08 June 2011 01:31


Quote:


Valerie indicated the thermos. "First one's free... then I start
having to pay for 'em, then I have to buy a special cup or something,
then the price goes up, and I start selling 'em to other kids..."


Has Val made this joke before? Ah, I think she used it on Mrs. Parker with respect to breakfasts, in the main storyline.



Confirmed:
Saga of Tuck Pt. 63


11:37 25 Jul

"Staying for lunch?" I asked Miz Parker as I got ready to cook some
noodles.
"No, well..." she wavered.
"Awwww, come on," I said, fulfilling my role as Emissary of Evil.
"All your friends are doing it," Amy grinned, catching on.
"Be cool!" I added. "Just try it once."
"First one's free!" Amy smiled.
Miz Parker finally got the references to anti-drug campaigning and
laughed.

Re: Seasons #16 [message #6890] Sun, 19 June 2011 01:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

Remember that Jane's philosophy is to increase perception of risk while minimising as far as possible actual risk.

I was thinking about JANE's risk. the kid perceives more risk because there's no safety and has to act more carefully. But really Jane is watching him the whole time. But Jane, she HAS to watch the children the whole time because she doesn't have any backup. If something goes wrong, she's probably getting jail time. even if they have the recommended safety equipment.

Quote:

There's nothing to stop a student throwing a chair through the window or flooding the bathroom either.

those would be more than the minor annoyance that setting off false alarms with a smoke detector would be. Destroying property like that might get them sent to prison or something. But there's nothing really illegal about making a loud annoying noise that doesn't disturb the neighbours.

Quote:

In fact the horses seems kind of risky to me.

my sister broke more bones playing soccer than any of us ever did riding horses. I got thrown plenty of times and as long as you're in a prepared arena, the ground is so soft it really doesn't matter (unless the horse falls on you). Probably the most dangerous thing she does to them is drive them around in a car. Not to mention the pool. Some risks people are more willing to accept than others

Quote:

he sees the world as fundamentally hostile, and has elaborate military-style procedures and functional paranoia for coping with it.

this is my point. he expects everyone to treat the world as being as hostile and dangerous as he sees it. He bitches and yells at them for being incompetent and clueless, and demands they make him feel safer.

He's so sure his world view is correct that he won't consider anyone else's way of doing things. Just like a misogynist sees women as inferior and demands people let him act according to that world view, tuck demands everyone else accept his actions. Just because YOU ascribe a positive moral value to tuck's actions and a negative value to the misogynist's doesn't mean that it's right.

The story tells us that Jane helps people by changing their behaviour and world view into one that lets them fit better into society. Either this is good and tuck should change, or Tuck is right and fitting into society is wrong.

This is a problem with psychology, it ALWAYS comes down to mind control. The therapist is making a moral judgement on your actions and is going to try to get you to do more or less of those actions depending on their personal moral code.

There are two types of heroes, those who stay the same while the world changes (Dirty Harry) and those who change while the world stays the same (Luke Skywalker). These two archetypes can't exist in the same character. Dirty harry can't learn a valuable lesson that causes him to grow. He can only learn things that reinforce his basic character. Just like Luke Skywalker can't truly go back to Tatooine and be a humble dew farmer.

If tuck learns a valuable lesson that reinforces his base character, he's going to become tougher and even more defensive. I don't think that what Tuck needs is more confidence and another level in badass. If he grows as a person, he's going to follow the heroes' journey and wind up changed forever.

Am I the only person who feels there's a difference between how tuck cooks for the Parkers, and how he cooks for the Seasons House?
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6891] Sun, 19 June 2011 10:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
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Jane uses the threat of exposure to control her students, and her students expect ridicule if they're exposed as boys in girls' clothing. Tuck, on the other hand, has experience with being chased and assaulted for being too different, so therefore his reactions are going to be more extreme and his paranoia level is going to be quite high. There is nothing that Jane can do or say that will change that world view. He may feel more relaxed in a properly-equipped household, surrounded by people who are provably nonthreatening and possessed of a modicum of Clue.

On the other hand, Val has experience with being one of the girls for days at a time. Val could say to Jane, "Look, you want feminine behavior? I can do feminine behavior. With the right clothes and makeup I can fit right in as a mall bunny. Or on a dance floor. Anywhere with real people, doing the things that real people do. Nobody except the snooty idle rich dress or act like you want me to."

Re: Seasons #16 [message #6892] Sun, 19 June 2011 12:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

Jane uses the threat of exposure to...

You're viewing the method as the goal. The goal is not to make the boys able to act like girls. the point is to enable them to behave as functional adults. Tuck has serious issues obeying authorities. He's admitted that he could never function in a hierarchical organisation. He views orders, rules, and laws as just suggestions.

Tuck shows seriously bad judgement all the time, and Mike agrees with me. If Jane can teach tuck better judgement, maybe he wouldn't be so dependant on Mike all the time.

Who do you think had a worse set of abusive experiences? Tuck, Darryl, or Kenneth?

We're not quite sure what all happened in Tuck's past, and what we do know, we only have tuck's side of the story. Tuck's not always the most reliable of narrators, but I think it's safe to say that he's never been raped or mutilated. (Oct 9 hasn't happened either)

Once again, Tuck reminds me of Jesse, who was picked on so brutally he began to see everyone as a threat.
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6893] Sun, 19 June 2011 17:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
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Darryl, Kenneth, Jesse?
You're assuming I've read the rest of the Seasons canon and that I agree with the methodology.

I haven't and I don't. It strikes me as just slightly less perverted than the Naked In School series.

I'm reading Tuck Seasons, as told from the viewpoint of Tuck.
If Jane was trying to teach Tuck better judgement she wasn't doing it very well. "Treat me like a POW and I'll act like a POW." With a signed contract Jane has a chance to impart something. Exactly what beyond acting like a snotty, prissy entitled bitch, I'm not sure.

Your mileage, of course, may vary.
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6894] Mon, 20 June 2011 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

You're assuming I've read the rest of the Seasons canon and that I agree with the methodology.

I haven't and I don't.

And for your next trick I suppose you'll tell us how awesome the movie adaptation of starshiptroopers/irobot/Eragon was if only you didn't read the book first. Even if that's true, they aren't the same story.

Quote:

If Jane was trying to teach Tuck better judgement she wasn't doing it very well.

Behaviour modification is all about building habits. You can't bargain or negotiate someone into changing their personality. Jane needs to create a change that will last for years after the boy leaves.

Tuck is still thinking that he's only there to learn a set of skills. Carl also had the idea of simply learning the skills and waiting out the clock. But somehow I don't think the same tactics would work on Tuck. I'm looking forward to seeing what tactics DO work on Tuck.

Jane once compared her process to straightening a bent or warped piece of wood. Do you think Tuck is already a straight board?
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6895] Mon, 20 June 2011 18:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
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Quote:


Quote:

You're assuming I've read the rest of the Seasons canon and that I agree with the methodology.
I haven't and I don't.


And for your next trick I suppose you'll tell us how awesome the movie adaptation of starshiptroopers/irobot/Eragon was if only you didn't read the book first. Even if that's true, they aren't the same story.


I watched Starship Troopers. Interesting depiction of fascism, deplorable depiction of something purporting to be a military, interesting as an example of a Science Fiction movie. Totally horrid adaptation of the novel.
Quote:


Quote:

If Jane was trying to teach Tuck better judgement she wasn't doing it very well.

Behaviour modification is all about building habits. You can't bargain or negotiate someone into changing their personality. Jane needs to create a change that will last for years after the boy leaves.

Tuck is still thinking that he's only there to learn a set of skills. Carl also had the idea of simply learning the skills and waiting out the clock. But somehow I don't think the same tactics would work on Tuck. I'm looking forward to seeing what tactics DO work on Tuck.

Jane once compared her process to straightening a bent or warped piece of wood. Do you think Tuck is already a straight board?

Carl who? Some one else from another story?

TuVal seems to be fairly well adapted to the situation in which he finds himself. In exactly what ways do you think Tuck is warped? Extreme paranoia? Part of that's Bill's training and part is Tuck's experience. Voluntarily appearing as Val? He feels more comfortable and accepted in women's clothes, a large fraction of which is that his body's changing to a more feminine form. Introverted geek? Yeah, so?

Had Tuck brought up the concept of 'weird but OK' in the main story in regard to pshrinks? IIRC he accepted that he's a couple of sigmas from the mean (I'd judge him as about two and a half, at about the 99% level, but that's just me).
Re: Seasons #16 [message #6896] Mon, 20 June 2011 20:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Amy!  is currently offline Amy!
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Quote:

Jane once compared her process to straightening a bent or warped piece of wood. Do you think Tuck is already a straight board?


I think Jane is so bent that she has to wriggle through normal doors.

Amy!

[Updated on: Mon, 20 June 2011 20:58]

Re: Seasons #16 [message #7019] Thu, 17 November 2011 17:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
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Something I came across: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serse

This a writeup of the Xerces opera, with an audio clip down at the end '"Ombra mai fù" (and the introductory recitative) as performed by Enrico Caruso in 1920.'

I'd love to hear TuVal singing that.

Re: Seasons #16 [message #7025] Sat, 26 November 2011 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JenC  is currently offline JenC
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I hadn't realised that potential consequence of Tuck's condition, interesting.

Jen
Re: Seasons #16 [message #7096] Sun, 03 June 2012 07:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JenC  is currently offline JenC
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JenC wrote on Sat, 26 November 2011 22:02

I hadn't realised that potential consequence of Tuck's condition, interesting.

Jen


Gah just noticed that Jack had picked up this potential in Chapter 22 of the Saga. This is what I love about Tuck, the little throw away lines which give you hints for the future and if you miss them only make sense later, usually a lot later.

Jen
icon12.gif  Re: Seasons #16 [message #7097] Sun, 03 June 2012 15:15 Go to previous message
Anne  is currently offline Anne
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Registered: April 2012
Senior Member
I assume your talking about this line?

He made a face. "Well, if you ever figure out how, I'd love to
hear you sing. You know, kids like you were in demand back when choirs were all the rage."

This would definitely make tuck a good singer if he had any ability at all.
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