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Tuck 112 is up [message #4256] Sun, 04 December 2005 11:12 Go to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Posted just now; the ZIP is going up as soon as I finish writing this.

Discussion on this one is highly encouraged; I'd like to know what everyone thinks. (as usual, but I want to encourage this...)


Ellen
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Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4257] Sun, 04 December 2005 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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Wow! *picks jaw up from the floor*

First of all, that has got to be one of the shortest chapters, in terms of elapsed story time, that I can recall.

Just when we thought we couldn't have any more questions, you decide to unload several truckloads of them in this chapter.

I guess the biggest question I have after reading this is what will Lisa do now? Will calm down and see that this truely was a case of 'wrong place - wrong time' or will she strike out on her own against Tucker, perhaps involving Travis in some manner?

And when looking to the next chapter, how will be Sabrina, Pam and Kelly react to seeing Tuck in his current condition? What impact will it have on the rest of the pack when they are told about their visit with Tuck and what happened with Debbie?

Also, What will Sarah do when she finds out about Judy and the coach stoping by? Will she have a talk to Dobson who in turn comes down hard on the coach or will she have the family lawyer get restraining orders taken out against all members of the squad and their coach?

I'm going to read 111 and this chapter again now so I'm sure I'll have more thoughts when that is done.

One monor quibble: I thought The Tucker house had a garage, not a carport?

[Updated on: Sun, 04 December 2005 13:30]

Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4258] Sun, 04 December 2005 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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maltor wrote on Sun, 04 December 2005 18:25

Wow! *picks jaw up from the floor*

First of all, that has got to be one of the shortest chapters, in terms of elapsed story time, that I can recall.


Practically real-time, yes.

Quote:

Just when we thought we couldn't have any more questions, you decide to unload several truckloads of them in this chapter.

I guess the biggest question I have after reading this is what will Lisa do now? Will calm down and see that this truely was a case of 'wrong place - wrong time' or will she strike out on her own against Tucker, perhaps involving Travis in some manner?

And when looking to the next chapter, how will be Sabrina, Pam and Kelly react to seeing Tuck in his current condition? What impact will it have on the rest of the pack when they are told about their visit with Tuck and what happened with Debbie?


This quite worries me actually. Tuck, Mike and Bill seem to think the matter's closed. Somehow I doubt it'll be that easy. Pam's 'guns are inherently evil' stance seems somewhat of a simplistic viewpoint, like a straw man, but let's face it, Debbie's alive now only because Tuck and Mike's training is way way way beyond that of the vast majority of gun owners in the States. And Debbie's still pretty traumatised. Suspect she'll actually break down during her next consult.

I think at least some of the Pack are going to be afraid of Tuck now. This on top of the shock Jill and Kim got a while back (IIRC).

(Machiavelli might have said it's safer to be feared than loved, (as long as you're not hated) but it would make me sad to see it.)

Is anyone else starting to wonder if we'll ever see Valerie again?

Quote:

Also, What will Sarah do when she finds out about Judy and the coach stoping by? Will she have a talk to Dobson who in turn comes down hard on the coach or will she have the family lawyer get restraining orders taken out against all members of the squad and their coach?

I'm going to read 111 and this chapter again now so I'm sure I'll have more thoughts when that is done.

One monor quibble: I thought The Tucker house had a garage, not a carport?


So did I; described as such in T^2 and wasn't contradicted in proofing... Oops. Shucks. isNotCanon. If Ellen's never specified it in the main text, that's possibly where you got it from. But I thought a garage was involved in action described in canon but occurring before the main story starts - that time when Tuck ran all the way home from bullies, and then confronted them in the yard with a gun in his hand. But that might simply be how I visualised the scene and not supported in text.

I think, in this chapter, we've had the best-yet visual description of the outside of Tuck's house. Through Jody's eyes.

(Her coach seems almost more of an idiot than she is.)


Rachel
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4259] Sun, 04 December 2005 15:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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rachel.greenham wrote on Sun, 04 December 2005 14:49

And Debbie's still pretty traumatised. Suspect she'll actually break down during her next consult.

And that will cost her money, which will probably piss her off more then the almost getting killed thing.
Quote:



I think at least some of the Pack are going to be afraid of Tuck now. This on top of the shock Jill and Kim got a while back (IIRC).

(Machiavelli might have said it's safer to be feared than loved, (as long as you're not hated) but it would make me sad to see it.)

Any fear they show will probably fade into the background as the emotional and physical stress that everyone is suffering under as a result of the attack, and now the recovery and propoganda campaign eases with time.
Quote:

Is anyone else starting to wonder if we'll ever see Valerie again?

It's beginning to look less and less likely with the current state of things. Hopefully, when Tuck manages to contact Travis it will provide a needed push to bring Val out again.
Quote:



Quote:

Also, What will Sarah do when she finds out about Judy and the coach stoping by? Will she have a talk to Dobson who in turn comes down hard on the coach or will she have the family lawyer get restraining orders taken out against all members of the squad and their coach?

I'm going to read 111 and this chapter again now so I'm sure I'll have more thoughts when that is done.

One monor quibble: I thought The Tucker house had a garage, not a carport?


So did I; described as such in T^2 and wasn't contradicted in proofing... Oops. Shucks. isNotCanon. If Ellen's never specified it in the main text, that's possibly where you got it from. But I thought a garage was involved in action described in canon but occurring before the main story starts - that time when Tuck ran all the way home from bullies, and then confronted them in the yard with a gun in his hand. But that might simply be how I visualised the scene and not supported in text.

I think, in this chapter, we've had the best-yet visual description of the outside of Tuck's house. Through Jody's eyes.

(Her coach seems almost more of an idiot than she is.)


After searching through the Tuck archive I've discovered there was a garage in earlier chapters:

Tuck 57 - 07:45 14 Jul
I guess, that yeah, it should have been obvious she wasn't my mother, since my dad had supposedly sworn never to have another child unless he killed one of us - not if we died, just if he was forced to kill one or more of us himself - when Brian was 'playing' with a friend in the car and managed to start it and run backwards through the garage door.

Tuck 72 - 21:01 1 Aug
Which is why Mike and Dan and Amy and I were dorking around with the climbing stuff and the pulleys mounted in the garage, finding where our center of gravity was when we were loaded without packs.
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4260] Sun, 04 December 2005 18:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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maltor wrote on Sun, 04 December 2005 10:25

Wow! *picks jaw up from the floor*

First of all, that has got to be one of the shortest chapters, in terms of elapsed story time, that I can recall.


Yep, Debbie had an hour and a half before the consult, and when she left, she still had time to consider eating and talking before going to it. I'd say less than an hour.

maltor wrote on Sun, 04 December 2005 10:25

I guess the biggest question I have after reading this is what will Lisa do now? Will calm down and see that this truely was a case of 'wrong place - wrong time' or will she strike out on her own against Tucker, perhaps involving Travis in some manner?


Well, as soon as the call to Lisa was made I was going "oh no..."

maltor wrote on Sun, 04 December 2005 10:25

Also, What will Sarah do when she finds out about Judy and the coach stoping by? Will she have a talk to Dobson who in turn comes down hard on the coach or will she have the family lawyer get restraining orders taken out against all members of the squad and their coach?


More to the point, there's reason to believe that Jody dropped the letter when she screamed and covered her head. So there's the question of what happened to it.

For that matter, Tuck hasn't read Ricky's letter either.

maltor wrote on Sun, 04 December 2005 10:25

One monor quibble: I thought The Tucker house had a garage, not a carport?


So did I but the only mention I'm sure of at the moment was in Tuck Squared.

Well, we've got this:

Tuck 57

7:45 14 Jul

Apparently, Miz Parker wasn't my mom, because she laughed instead
of grounding me for insolence.
I guess, that yeah, it should have been obvious she wasn't my
mother, since my dad had supposedly sworn never to have another child
unless he killed one of us - not if we died, just if he was forced to
kill one or more of us himself - when Brian was 'playing' with a friend
in the car and managed to start it and run backwards through the garage
door. And Miz Parker was obviously nursing a fresh child. Therefore.


"the car" implies that it was a car belonging to the Tuckers, rather than to the parents of Brian's friend. And "the garage" sort of implies that it was the Tucker's garage, but not all that strongly.

Aha! Positive confirmation!

Tuck 72

21:01 2 Aug

The problem with having done this many times before AND having two
new people coming along, was that Dad had to go through everything
slowly, twice, with them, whereas those of us who had done this before
zipped through the checklists and loadouts much quicker, including the
optional items and personal stuff like my drugs or my 'special project'
or Amy's books or Mike's idea too, and then we were left with nothing to
do, but a sense we should hang around. Besides, I still had a couple of
things I had to do and couldn't do until the kids left. So we were
bored.
Which is why Mike and Dan and Amy and I were dorking around with
the climbing stuff and the pulleys mounted in the garage, finding where
our center of gravity was when we were loaded without packs. This
involved two pulleys and rope out of a pack (mine, just to keep things
simple) and a climbing harness, and two of us hauling on a rope to lift
a third as the fourth made calculations and shifted weights around.


That scene is *definitely* at the Tucker house.

So, the question becomes is this a continuity error? An alternate universe? A dream?
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4261] Sun, 04 December 2005 19:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Hmmm, continuity glitch. Not very serious, but a glitch anyway.

Actually, the Chapter 72 ocurrence could be easily glossed over by claiming that Tuck had "misnamed" the carport, calling it inaccurately a garage. I think it would still be possible to train with climbing gear in a carport...

Chapter 57, however, is more problematic: it clearly mentions a door.

A way to weasel out of it: Brian damaged the (attached, 1-car) garage so much that Bill ended up tearing it down and replacing it with a (2-car) carport. Maybe it was already in bad shape when they bought the house, and he decided to make the best of it. Tuck still calls it a "garage" out of habit.

(Why not building a two-car garage? Maybe some zoning restriction, -- I know nothing about how these things work in the U.S. -- maybe he was just short on money back then).

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4262] Sun, 04 December 2005 22:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Sir Lee wrote on Sun, 04 December 2005 16:45

Hmmm, continuity glitch. Not very serious, but a glitch anyway.

Actually, the Chapter 72 ocurrence could be easily glossed over by claiming that Tuck had "misnamed" the carport, calling it inaccurately a garage. I think it would still be possible to train with climbing gear in a carport...


Still, it would involve being *seriously* "weird" in view of the neighbors. A bit high profile for the Tuckers...

Sir Lee wrote on Sun, 04 December 2005 16:45

Chapter 57, however, is more problematic: it clearly mentions a door.

A way to weasel out of it: Brian damaged the (attached, 1-car) garage so much that Bill ended up tearing it down and replacing it with a (2-car) carport. Maybe it was already in bad shape when they bought the house, and he decided to make the best of it. Tuck still calls it a "garage" out of habit.


Actually, given that we *know* the Tuckers used to live in New York state, it's possible that the incident happened before they moved to their current location.

I was going to mentyion that, then I hit chapter 72 while checking the references to "garage" in the chapters.

Sir Lee wrote on Sun, 04 December 2005 16:45

(Why not building a two-car garage? Maybe some zoning restriction, -- I know nothing about how these things work in the U.S. -- maybe he was just short on money back then).


Not likely to be a zoning restriction. Not given the description of the house & surroundings.

However, a friend who reads posts hear (but refuses to post) emailed me:

not-so-innocent-friend

Just because you don't SEE a garage while standing in front of a house doesn't mean there isn't one. Most of the houses in Aberdeen have garage access from the rear. and just what my garage does; could you guess that from the front without looking down the alley?

just something you might bring up on those comments.


His garage is *weird*. It doubles as a basement and is wrapped around the house. It's L shaped with a door on the driveway and another on the alley.

So who knows.




Sir Lee[/quote]
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4264] Mon, 05 December 2005 01:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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I hate explaining things to you people, because I'd rather watch you writhe in insanity and confusion, but this time...

What makes you think a garage, especially in the rear of the lot, isincompatible with a carport?

If _I_ had three kids and a two-car garage, I would seriously consider getting a carport myself, just to extend the parking room. Just like Bill has a wide driveway with parallel-parking slots along one side.

Now find something else to talk about if you want another episode before 2007.


Ellen
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Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4266] Mon, 05 December 2005 03:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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According to this chapter, Debbie was uneasy about having to stop at the Tucker household. The fact that she had to sit in her car for several minutes to pull herself together enough before she could even get out of it is proof enough of that. Given that, how is it she was able to come to the house two weeks earlier and have that screaming match with Sarah and manage to hold her own? Did she spend all morning preparing herself? Was she so shaken by the experience of preparing and then standing up to Sarah, that in the end she's no longer even has the ability to make the attempt?

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Debbie has for the most part been portrayed as having a solid foundation, a vast reserve of inner strength. Lately, it just seems like she's not as stong as she was in the past, like her foundation is starting to show some major cracks?

How or Will this affect her ability to pull her off whatever it is she needs to do to see her propoganda campaign to completion?
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4267] Mon, 05 December 2005 05:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Dealing with an immediate crisis situation is entirely different from dealing with events one suspects might provoke a crisis. Debbie is good when the chips are down but dealing with anxiety and reaction are not her strongpoints.
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4268] Mon, 05 December 2005 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Just thought I'd mention the flavor of slapstick some of the scenes have. Like getting hit in the face with a vinegar pie. Smile A lot of the recent chapters have had this.

Come to think of it, there's a bit of this feeling in Pink Floyd's music so it's appropriate that these chapters have it.

- Erin
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4269] Mon, 05 December 2005 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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martenkemp wrote on Mon, 05 December 2005 05:22

4. I do agree with rachel.greenham's in that the level of
firearms training shown by Tuck is incredibly high.


They're basically poster-children for the NRA. They're even well-regulated and practically a militia. Razz

Their utter perfection as gun-owners vs. Pam's dogmatic and simplistic 'guns are evil, period' attitude sits uncomfortably with me, at least.

[Updated on: Mon, 05 December 2005 13:28]


Rachel
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4271] Mon, 05 December 2005 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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rachel.greenham wrote on Mon, 05 December 2005 10:26

martenkemp wrote on Mon, 05 December 2005 05:22

4. I do agree with rachel.greenham's in that the level of
firearms training shown by Tuck is incredibly high.


They're basically poster-children for the NRA. They're even well-regulated and practically a militia. Razz

Their utter perfection as gun-owners vs. Pam's dogmatic and simplistic 'guns are evil, period' attitude sits uncomfortably with me, at least.


Well, the Tuckers have been shown to have a *way* higher than normal level of training. And technically speaking, Tuck *did* blow it. But he managed to avoid doing anything that caused *physical* injury to anyone. Barely.

The Tuckers are *not* an example of "utter perfection". Their paranoia (justified or not) gets in the way.

Alas, thanks to the rather successful propaganda campain by groups such as Handgun Control, Inc. a large number of Americans *do* have the exact attitude shown by Pam.

Such people *vastly* out-number the few folks who really do deserve to be called "gun nuts" (emphasis on "nuts").



Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4276] Tue, 06 December 2005 05:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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martenkemp wrote on Mon, 05 December 2005 23:31

Might I suggest that this not degenerate into a "gun control" debate thread?


It's probably inevitable, and inevitably pointless. Positions are fixed. People aren't going to be persuaded to the other point of view. (I count myself in this.) At some point someone'll Godwinate and <sigh/> It's just depressing.

Heh. At least we can agree on that. Smile

The problem is, it's an inevitable consequence of making the Tuckers' practices such a central element of the plot, at this stage in the story. We've known for a long time what the family does in this regard, but as long as it wasn't a dominant part of the story, it wasn't alienating, it was just colour. Certainly I don't read Tuck for the uncritical (and to me unconvincing) paean to gun-ownership, and I find it quite off-putting. It's not the guns in isolation, it's the whole mindset around the use of violence.

As has been pointed out, this may be a cultural thing. Razz

But maybe Ellen will surpise. She has a track record of doing so, after all. Smile At the moment I can't tell if there's any daylight between Bill Tucker's views (and those he's imparted to his kids), which I find disturbing, and Ellen's.

So to turn the discussion in a slightly different direction:

To what extent do people think Bill Tucker's choices in rearing his children reflect his own upbringing?

[Updated on: Tue, 06 December 2005 06:24]


Rachel
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4277] Tue, 06 December 2005 06:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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sluggo wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 05:37

I doubt that anyone in the household would agree with me, but if Tuck's shrink hears about it, I hope she discusses this with Bill.


Oh that's a very good point. But I don't expect she'll hear about it from any of the Tuckers. For them it's beyond discussion.


Rachel
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4279] Tue, 06 December 2005 10:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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If someone thinks that Pam is being too simplistic, and can come up with a more detailed viewpoint (it WAS a short segment), then they may post it here, and I'll use it if/when it becomes appropriate later.


Ellen
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Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4283] Tue, 06 December 2005 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Some points which have been overlooked in the heat of "Debbie was almost killed" thing...

- The Rachel subplot -- she keeps being ignored, and is in the dark regarding the whole situation. There's some chance that this will cause problems later, like her inadvertently doing something that sabotages the efforts of the others.

- More important that Pam or Sabrina realizing that Tuck is not as "cute and cuddly" as they thought, it's DEBBIE realizing that. I mean, there was some evidence that Debbie was already trying to reapproach Tuck even before the beating, and Tuck was ignoring it. The events on this chapter change the whole dynamic: now, after he cools down and is better briefed, is Tuck who has reason to feel guilty and try to mend things with Debbie, while she might prefer to keep her distance.

- Debbie's role as the instigator of the posters has been "outed" to the Rat Boyz, and there's a good chance that the Pack will pull this info from her soon too.

- The whole police thing at the school may end up not making much of a difference -- the Rat Boyz were already being put out of commission by strep throat (Tuck and Mike out, George almost out, Dan not that well...), so chances are that they wouldn't be able to do any more "night incursions" for a while. Unless they insist in doing a last incursion -- which would be a Bad Idea, in their present condition.

- Jody is falling apart even more. I wonder what other stupid thing she will end up doing? OTOH, Mike at least got the message that she wants to apologize and reported it to Tuck and Bill. Mike could have handled it better, if only he wasn't sick and overwhelmed at the moment. Maybe Bill (not Sarah! No, not Sarah!) will be able to talk to Miranda in a civilized manner next day... this _could_ be the beginning of a lessening of tensions.

Sir Lee

P.S.: Just to be annoying and nitpicky: back in 1997, Palms were still called "PalmPilots". The first model without "Pilot" in the name was the Palm III, which went on sale in 1998. It took a while for "Palm" to overtake "PalmPilot" in common usage, too...


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4288] Tue, 06 December 2005 15:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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Sir Lee wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 11:26

Some points which have been overlooked in the heat of "Debbie was almost killed" thing...

- The Rachel subplot -- she keeps being ignored, and is in the dark regarding the whole situation. There's some chance that this will cause problems later, like her inadvertently doing something that sabotages the efforts of the others.


Well the only person that has regular contact with her is Val and due to their schedules, that usually only happened after work or dates with Travis as she switched back to Tuck mode. It probably hasn't even registered in anyones thoughts to contact her. When everything was falling apart after the attack, she just wasn't a blip on their radar of friendlies to contact. Once Tuck calls her and finds out she was kept in the dark, they'll probbly have an embarassing 'Opps!' moment before the Pack and Da Boyz start blamming each other for not bringing her into the loop. Especially if they find out she left a message withd Debbie to try and get some answers.
Quote:

- Jody is falling apart even more. I wonder what other stupid thing she will end up doing? OTOH, Mike at least got the message that she wants to apologize and reported it to Tuck and Bill. Mike could have handled it better, if only he wasn't sick and overwhelmed at the moment. Maybe Bill (not Sarah! No, not Sarah!) will be able to talk to Miranda in a civilized manner next day... this _could_ be the beginning of a lessening of tensions.

first off, I don't think Jody told Miranda what happened when she tried to visit Tuck at the hospital. If she had, the coach might not have recommended she change into her uniform. And once Bill and/or Sarah do their thing, one of them or Dobson will drive home the point that showing up dressed in the same manner as she and the others were when they attacked him isn't going to endear him to their cause at anytime in this lifetime. Of course after the whole 'stay the hell away from the Tuckers' message gets sufficently pounded into their skulls.

As to her falling apart, well I hope the coach is taking her home now instead of back to school. Hopefully one of her parents will be home and the coach can tell them what happened and what she tried to do. That will prove to them that Jody is trying to make things right and also serve as a warning to get her into counsling ASAP.

As to the note, Mike heard her intention to appologize, but I'm not sure if he'll believe her since there was no indication that Jody dropped the letter, or that the Miranda took it from her her and left it on the poarch before scooping Jody up and dragging her back to the car.
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4290] Tue, 06 December 2005 19:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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maltor wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 18:54

As to the note, Mike heard her intention to appologize, but I'm not sure if he'll believe her since there was no indication that Jody dropped the letter, or that the Miranda took it from her her and left it on the poarch before scooping Jody up and dragging her back to the car.


Remember this?
Quote:

Mike looked in dull amazement as the cheerleader screamed something in a terrified shriek and collapsed. *That's a guilty conscience if I've ever seen one...*

I believe that this should count points towards Mike believing the apology was sincere...

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4291] Wed, 07 December 2005 01:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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Sir Lee wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 19:27

maltor wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 18:54

As to the note, Mike heard her intention to appologize, but I'm not sure if he'll believe her since there was no indication that Jody dropped the letter, or that the Miranda took it from her her and left it on the poarch before scooping Jody up and dragging her back to the car.


Remember this?
Quote:

Mike looked in dull amazement as the cheerleader screamed something in a terrified shriek and collapsed. *That's a guilty conscience if I've ever seen one...*

I believe that this should count points towards Mike believing the apology was sincere...

Sir Lee


Yes, but the Tuckers are professional skeptics and are just as likely to view this as someone that's trying to win sympathy points with a victim so that when she shows up in court to face those Assult charges she'll be able to get a favorable plea bargin.
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4295] Wed, 07 December 2005 08:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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martenkemp wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 16:28

Following the Chekhov's Gun literary technique (http://www.answers.com/topic/chekhov-s-gun)


I am aware of this dictum (though not previously under that name - idiot English teachers), and I explicitly reject it. Don't assume, EVER, that just because you see something in Tuck, that it will be important later. Real Life (TM) does not come with dramatic highlighting of perceptions, nor theme music...


Ellen
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Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4297] Wed, 07 December 2005 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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About Chekov's gun:

It certainly applies as formulated to constrained narrative forms -- short stories, plays, movies, TV series -- because you have only so many elements you can present to your public in the limited space/time you have without degenerating into a mess, so you shouldn't "waste space" with irrelevant things.

Of course, you shouldn't take the word "gun" too literally -- it might be anything that figures prominently in the setting, as opposed to being expected background props. (If a character in a play bothers to mention the price of a necklace, you can bet it will have some importance later; conversely, a gun in the belt of a police officer, or hung on the wall of a hunting lodge, might not be used at all -- they are there just because the context demands them).

Does it apply to longer forms, too? Yes, but not in so obvious a way. If the author bothered to include it, it certainly has a purpose in the story -- but it might be a less obvious purpose. Novel and multi-novel writers have room to include all sorts of elements to add atmosphere and complexity to the setting and characters.

So, in that expanded sense, (even if she herself disagrees) Ellen DOES follow the "Chekov's Gun" dictum -- the guns are there to fulfill a purpose in the story (that being to give some insight into the mindset of the Tucker family). They don't HAVE to be fired (outside of the range) to be a valid story element. Even if Ellen had taken chapter 112 in a different direction, without the incident in the basement, it still wouldn't be "necessary" to use the guns in a direct way in some other scene. The guns HAVE their purpose in the story, with or without shots fired, and whether somebody will eventually be shot at (be it a hit or a miss) depends only on the direction the author wishes to take the saga.

To point a non-gun parallel, let's go back to Jill's birthday present (a dress). In a short story, it might be expected that the dress had some sort of more direct significance to the plot -- maybe Jill would wear it to a dance or something. In a long story like Tuck, its purpose can be more subtle: giving some insight into Jill.

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4312] Sun, 11 December 2005 04:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
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It may be worth noting that from what we've been told, Debbie is correct in her hindsight reflection that she shouldn't have gone into the Tucker house. In any case, it's true that she needn't have gone in. If all she required was to pass along the Dobson message to Mike or Dan, she could have done so during the cellphone call she made from outside saying that she was there.

Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4313] Sun, 11 December 2005 07:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Yes, but:

After dating Tuck, she got the idea that some things best NOT be talked over the phone. Of course, she could try to be subtle about it, like Dobson did, but she probably felt that it was better to have a face-to-face conversation.

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4318] Mon, 12 December 2005 12:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mthead  is currently offline mthead
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Location: Baton Rouge
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I think Debbie went in not only to warn, but to plan action around the patrols. It did not appear that she was going to be deterred in her mission and was looking for commitment from the others. Whatever her plan is, it seems it needs to be carried out that night (Thursday?).
Be an interesting insight into Debbie's character if she pulls herself together enough to see her plan through to a satisfactory conclusion. It is going to take a lot of persuasion and leadership on her part to get the team to commit to the mission, get the material together, and get the stuff put up at the school. And, of course, by a satisfactory conclusion I mean not being caught.
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4323] Wed, 14 December 2005 13:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Raadsel  is currently offline Raadsel
Messages: 21
Registered: September 2004
Location: TX
Junior Member
I do see the gun incident with Debbie souring the Pack's relationship with Tuck. But, as the irrational logic of personal relationships typically run, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't effect their relationship with Val, and that it could even improve it.

It has seemed, in the past, that many of the Pack have viewed Tuck and Val as different people, despite knowing they are the same. Tuck is the geeky one, the one that does the camping and will be perceived as the one with guns. Val, on the other hand, is perceived to be Tuck's less geeky sister, she's viewed as being much more normal than Tuck.

While these perceptions are obviously wrong, it is true that the Pack identifies much better with Val. Rather than this stopping Tuck from becoming Val, I wonder it this might provide extra incentive to become Val more often so that he doesn't lose these friends.
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4341] Wed, 21 December 2005 13:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mthead  is currently offline mthead
Messages: 28
Registered: May 2005
Location: Baton Rouge
Junior Member
Ellen Hayes wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 09:06
Quote:

If someone thinks that Pam is being too simplistic, and can come up with a more detailed viewpoint (it WAS a short segment), then they may post it here, and I'll use it if/when it becomes appropriate later.


This is not too detailed and is not meant as a shot over the bow of the NRA. But, as one that has served many years as a medical corpsman with the Marines in the late 60's and through out the 70's, I have a love/hate relationship with guns. By this response to Ellen's post, I will propose what I hope will be a reasoned opinion by Pam. I would much rather that instead of her having just an emotional response like one of the sheeple.


"Well why did she have to... I mean, a GUN?"
"You say that like they're evil, Pam-"
"Well I think they are!"
Sabrina stared at her friend. "You WHAT?"
"Look at how much trouble, how many people are killed in this
country with guns every year?"
"Guns aren't the problem-"
"Yes they ARE! They make it too easy to kill. Why do people always think guns are the solution to their fear? If Debbie had been dressed as a cheerleader she would be dead now. Why? Because Tuck had a gun ready and available to him. Most 16 year olds would have been holding a baseball bat or been in hiding somewhere. But Tuck, even when he is in a drugged, semi-conscious state has ready access to a gun. Can't you see where that is just making it too easy to kill?"
"Well, he was almost killed by those people-"
"Yeah, good thing they didn't have a gun."
"Come on, you know what I mean. Tuck was afraid for his life."
"Well do you think he should start carrying a gun everywhere he goes?" Pam asked.
"No, of course not.", Sabrina replied.
"Well why not? If he is really in danger and guns are the only way he can protect himself, maybe he should. In fact, maybe we all should."
"That's ridiculous."
"Is it?", said Pam.
"Sabrina, if we all carried a gun we would all solve our problems with guns. That is the evil of guns. They make us think they are a solution when all they are is a refuge. How would you like to be dealing with the fact that Tuck had killed somebody a little while ago? And what if that someone had been Debbie?"
"I don't know, Pam, I just know that if only bad people have guns all the good people will be powerless and fearful. Guns are sometimes needed for our protection and protecting our freedom."
"Yeah", sighed Pam, "so are atomic bombs, mustard gas, and land mines. We might want to watch where we step around here."
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4346] Fri, 23 December 2005 10:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Thanks very much. Again, I don't promise it will come up in #113 or
'soon', but it is useful, and thanks for the work.


Ellen
nosig
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #4347] Fri, 23 December 2005 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
Messages: 197
Registered: May 2004
Senior Member
Ellen Hayes wrote on Fri, 23 December 2005 07:21

Thanks very much. Again, I don't promise it will come up in #113 or 'soon', but it is useful, and thanks for the work.


mthead did very well with the anti-gun argument for Pam. If you were to provide an pro-arms advocate into the story, I think that should come from Debbie, siding with the Tucker's view of the world. Although it would shock other members of the pack due to her ordeal in the Tucker basement, it makes sense as she is a daughter of a law enforcment family, whose father was lost in line of duty (possibly too hesitant to use his weapon at the time?)...
Albeit diversionary from the story theme, it would make a great sleepover discussion, certainly not a "sugar and spice" subject you would expect to witness at a slumber party. Smile
Re: Tuck 112 is up [message #7336] Sun, 16 September 2012 23:34 Go to previous message
Anne  is currently offline Anne
Messages: 355
Registered: April 2012
Senior Member
Rereading this thread and this chapter makes me wonder how Pam ever gets together with Tuck. Especially if Jill has reported that Tuck took her shooting....
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