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What Next? [message #2037] Sun, 25 July 2004 23:11 Go to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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OK, let's try a new topic to jumpstart the conversation, since it's been quiet around here for a while:

Where do you think the story is going to go in the near future? Or, alternatively, where do you want it to go? (I know full well that it's impossible to guess what Ellen will actually do, only that it will probably be better that what any of us come up with. But that doesn't mean it isn't fun to think about.)

My own immediate thoughts, chosing the first option:

I don't expect Tuck to suffer any long-term physical impairment. I also doubt Tuck will have any mental difficulties. It would be hard to continue the story from Tuck's POV if Tuck's mind wasn't working, and I don't see the story going on for very long in the non-Tuck viewpoint. I also think that if Tuck was going down for the count, Ellen would just do it. The story may not have a happy ending, but I don't see dragging things out in the hospital happening either. More details on the medical condition coming to light while Tuck is in the hospital is quite possible, though.

What happens to the people responsable for the attack. I strongly suspect they will end up dead. Not out of a sense of revenge, but simply premptive defense against future attack. I don't see anybody but the Tuckers, Mike, and Uncle Lanier involved in the action. Da Boyz aren't geared for this kind of work. Their efforts tend to be elaborate, nasty pranks. They may seem dangerous, but they aren't trying to hurt people. Besides, I doubt Bill would trust any of them other than Mike even knowing about the operation. And Mike would take Bill over Da Boyz just on a resources, skills, and experience basis, any day of the week; even if he trusted any of them outside of Tuck to follow through without hesitation if they were doing something that nasty.

One way or another, I suspect Tuck will be forced to choose between Eugene and Valerie very soon. My money is on Valerie, but knowing Ellen I wouldn't want to wager very much. One scenario that had crossed my mind a couple of episodes ago involved Tuck continuing to avoid actually discussing matters with the parentals, while also avoiding the shots. Tuck, when asked once again to talk with the parentals, would finally just shout out something along the lines of "Fine, just schedule the f***ing shots! I'll start destroying half my life!" At which point Mom would inform Tuck that Tuck doesn't get off that easy. They are going to make Tuck choose, but they are not going to let Tuck do it without explaining why that's the choice Tuck made. (I don't think this is likely in quite this way anymore, since Tuck won't be able to avoid talking in the hospital, unless Tuck simply isn't able to talk intellegently. But I think the underlying idea that Mom will force Tuck to actually deal with things, even if it means Mom will also need to deal with things, is sound.)

So, what does anybody else think? Or does somebody have a different idea for discussion?

[Updated on: Sun, 25 July 2004 23:14]

Re: What Next? [message #2038] Mon, 26 July 2004 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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I don't think anyone will end up dead because Bill and Mike are too smart to buy into that kind of grief. Tuck might do it in a moment of heated reaction but Bill and Mike have colder temperaments and time to think.

I don't think the shots are going to work, even if Tuck gets them because I beieve it will turn out that Tuck ALSO has PAIS, partial androgen insensitivity. This fits with Ellen's continually painting
Tuck into a tighter and tighter corner. Tuck can't have the complete version of that syndrome because that would prevent the development of sensitive nipples and a real sex drive.

Just a couple of thoughts.

- Erin
Re: What Next? [message #2039] Mon, 26 July 2004 19:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Mon, 26 July 2004 13:39

I don't think anyone will end up dead because Bill and Mike are too smart to buy into that kind of grief.

That was my reaction until I re-read the story after the latest chapter. But it seems to me like there are too many things pointing to something happening to disregard that. Brian mentiones the family rarely involves the police. Dad's response to Tuck shooting somebody chasing Tuck several years ago was that a warning shot was probably the right response that time- which suggests he would support stronger action in other circumstantces. Tuck and Mike are not kidding when they discuss what will happen to Carlos if they ever find him. Things like that.

The assholes came very close to killing Tuck, during an deliberate attack. Bill and Mike are not going to let that ever happen again. And they are not going to be messing around when it comes to preventing it. I do think Bill & Mike are smart enough to plan it in such a way as to keep grief to them to a minimum. Like I said, this is not about revenge- it's premptive defense.
Re: What Next? [message #2040] Mon, 26 July 2004 20:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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I'm inclined to agree with Erin that the perpetrators won't be killed, though I'd feel better about that conclusion if Bill hadn't just armed the family.

It doesn't seem to me that anything will happen on the revenge front until Tuck recovers enough to identify his attackers. I think he will; as OtherEric mentioned, it'd be awkward to continue the story if Tuck died or became mentally deficient while in the hospital, and I can't see Ellen doing anything as trite as giving Tuck partial amnesia in order to obliterate his memory of the whole episode. However, if something along those lines did happen, there's still the laptop to consider: the entry of Bill, Mike and, say, Susan, guns drawn, to greet the new owner after he turns it on, may be enough to get that person to provide the missing details and identify the other participants. (If Sarah were there, she'd fatally shoot him anyway after they got the information, but I don't think the others would let her come along and give her that opportunity.)

I'm not sure, if things are allowed to cool down and Tuck emerges from the attack without further damage, what Tuck, Bill and Mike would consider a satisfactory response to the attack. (FWIW, the attackers had the opportunity (and the motive) after the initial assault to murder Tuck, and didn't do it. It was the asthma attack, which they had no reason to expect, that put his life in jeopardy.)

It's almost standard operating procedure, in a situation like this, to look for a way to turn each of the attackers against the others, so that they do enough damage to each other as to no longer constitute a threat to you. I think that if Tuck and Mike considered that sufficient punishment, they, along with the rest of the Boyz and the Pack, could make that happen. (The first step might be to convince the cheerleaders that the jocks were trying to pin the attack on them.) They could also try some of the fun things that they were doing to Nickerson, though they wouldn't want to risk the eventual blowups being directed at themselves, or at innocent bystanders. (Also, with Nickerson they were getting help from unaffiliated, less-subtle tricksters who also wanted him gone. They'd be, if anything, on the other side of that here; even if the jocks and cheerleaders are implicated in the attack on Tuck, they're still going to come out of this more popular than the Boyz and the Pack.)

Another possibility, given the Laniers' insertion back into the story here, would be to kidnap the jocks and put 'em on a plane to New Orleans. Rehabilitating teens is, after all, their line of work. (And no, shipping them off to Aunt Jane doesn't work in this continuum.)

I'm inclined to think that Tuck's going to get a reprieve out of this on the Big Questions -- which may, subconsciously, have been what he was looking for when his responses to the usual cursory attacks at school became more provocative, putting him in greater danger. Until the situation resolves itself again, there's not a lot of point in Tuck making a choice. (At least, I think that's the way Tuck's going to look at it: "until the situation resolves itself" rather than "until I resolve this situation".)

The meeting between the family and Travis shouldn't be a big deal; the parents already know Tuck has a boyfriend and Travis won't disappoint anyone from a personality standpoint. (Unless, given the two-or-less-degrees-of-separation in this town, when he shows up, Bill or Sarah (or Brian!) recognizes him and knows what his big secret is. Which makes more and more sense as I think about it...)

How long the Parkers can be left in the dark, and what they'll do if Debbie succeeds in spinning the story to them in a way that doesn't put Valerie and D&E in legal danger, I'm not sure. I have this vague notion of Tuck/Val losing the job but Ricky and Val (or Tuck? That would be interesting) secretly getting together regularly with the help of Kim or Debbie, who find some way of justifying it to themselves as a customer satisfaction issue or something.

I'll stop there. I've been working on this for three hours already.

Eric
Re: What Next? [message #2041] Tue, 27 July 2004 02:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Eric wrote on Mon, 26 July 2004 17:37

I'm inclined to agree with Erin that the perpetrators won't be killed, though I'd feel better about that conclusion if Bill hadn't just armed the family.

I wish I could explain better why I think people are going to die. It's not particularly the way I want this to go; but after re-reading the story it's very hard for me to see anything else happening.

Eric wrote on Mon, 26 July 2004 17:37

It's almost standard operating procedure, in a situation like this, to look for a way to turn each of the attackers against the others,

I like this idea more than just eliminating the assholes. I hope you're right.

Eric wrote on Mon, 26 July 2004 17:37

I'm inclined to think that Tuck's going to get a reprieve out of this on the Big Questions

Perhaps, but not a very long one- or at least not one that will last until Tuck can begin normal operations again. I also think there's a fairly good chance that Tuck will announce a decision pretty quickly once Tuck's consicous again. What the decision is, and why, are very much open questions, however.

Eric wrote on Mon, 26 July 2004 17:37

The meeting between the family and Travis shouldn't be a big deal; the parents already know Tuck has a boyfriend and Travis won't disappoint anyone from a personality standpoint. (Unless, given the two-or-less-degrees-of-separation in this town, when he shows up, Bill or Sarah (or Brian!) recognizes him and knows what his big secret is. Which makes more and more sense as I think about it...)

I think the parents will make it a big deal, if for no other reason than they are there with Eugene and Travis is there for Valerie. That's going to be difficult at best.

Am I the only one who likes the idea that Travis' shyness/ lack of social life is just fairly typical of those who have the time to put into getting Eagle Scout at 15? (I'm personally not a great example of that, since I had issues that I refused to start dealing with for another 20 years or so. But it wasn't an unusual pattern among others I knew who managed it, either.)

Eric wrote on Mon, 26 July 2004 17:37

How long the Parkers can be left in the dark

Probably quite a while. They don't need an accurate or detailed reason on exaclty why Valerie is unavailable. The real problem will be if they decide to do a little follow-up on their own, and think they parents might not be treating Valerie well. Not that I think that's super-likely, but it's not totally out there, either. I think Erin summed it up pretty well earlier- they would be quite supportive of Valerie's weird medical condition, but run like hell from Eugene's emotional issues.

Somewhat further-in-the-future question: does somebody with more knowedge of the medical realities know if Tuck has a chance of being a mom, even if she winds up needing to use a surrogate? Tuck puts a suprisingly high priority on eventually being a parent for a sixteen year old. If anything would convince Tuck to actually have medical treatment, either way, I think that would be it. Tuck can't be a Dad. But if Tuck can be a Mom, I have this hunch that Tuck would jump into it completely. Or as completely as possible, even if it wasn't necessary or even relevant as far as the practical logistics of having the kid are concerned. (I'm not sure why I feel this way, but it seems right to me.)
Re: What Next? [message #2042] Tue, 27 July 2004 04:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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i think the family WILL involve the police. for precidence, i offer the attack on freehold. they know that they can only do so much to somone. sure they don't like to involve the athorities, but there are times when what police can do greatly out weighs what one can do on one's own. these kids are faceing atempted murder charges.. atleast atempted mansalughter. and 4-5 years in jail may not sound like much. (hate crime enhancment adds another 4 years or so, right?) but would YOU have liked to be convicted of a felony at that age? the chearleaders may be able to get out of assault charges, but it could reasonably be agrued that beating somone who can bearly stand out wieghs any risk to the attackers. espetialy when you put in longstanding personal enmity.

as far as the "jackets" the tuckers put on. i don't know why everyone thinks that means they are going to go out and shoot someone. armed sociaties are much more polite and less violent than ones where no one has guns. people that arn't trained and familiar with guns do feel like they have something special that makes them better than everyone else. but if you're used to guns, you know that there's nothing a gun can do that a knife can't (excluding long, non-urban fighting type ranges). and if you acknowledge that anyone on the steet could kill you wherther thay have a gun or not, you tend to act a lot more polite to people. so everyone, be nice to everyone you meet, they might shank you if you don't.

lets just look at this from bill's (overly paianoid) point of veiw. tuck's been being attacked at school for the past, who knows how long. they don't know who did what to tuck. they don't know if it was a drug crazed psycopath, or just a school yard grudge gone wronge. they don't know if this will be aimed at the whole family, or if they will try to finish tuck off (would be smart if they realise tuck can identify them). they actualy don't know if they effectivly sucseeded at killing tuck, tuck is still in surgery, people die on the table all the time. they don't know what they other people had, what if they had a gun and held tuck at gunpoint while they dressed and beat him, they don't know. however unlikely it is, it's still a possibilty. and would you like to have on your consiance for the rest of your life that you could have saved your son if only you had a gun at the right time?

also, the tuckers were all armed when they went out "camping" and NO ONE thought "OH MY GOD THEY ARE GOING TO KILL SOMONE!" but if they arm themselves for the remote possibility that they could be attacked by bears, snakes, wolves, poachers, park rangers, etc... why would they NOT take the same precaution when one of thier family has already been attacked?

as far as other actions the tuckers might take, i think it will be left until they find out what the police are gunna do. if the police say, "it's just boys being boys" and let them go... i wouldn't want to be around if that happens. but if they see it as more school violince gotten out of hand (i forget, is this before or after the rash of school schootings?) for a while they were prosecuting EVERYTHING as a serious attack. somone brings a butter knife to school and they are procecuted for possetion of a leathal weapon on school grounds... some of this DOES come down on dobson's shoulders. i don't know what will happen in that arena, but everything else wil play off of it.

but one thing remains constant in all of Da Boyz pranks, they couldn't be linked to any of it. they usualy wait longer than most people's atention span, to avoid any possible links of motive. they avoid fingerprints, sometimes plant them... i agree that they will probably try to play differant groups of people off of eachother, but they will probably wait more than a few weeks.


on a side note, when it becomes obvious that the police are looking into people at school, and one of the attackers has a messed up face that will mark him as one of the attackers, will he turn on the others? or will the others all turn on him? is the treat of kail time enough? will they be procecuted as adults? does anyone know ohio law?
Re: What Next? [message #2044] Wed, 28 July 2004 05:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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(OtherEric, 26 July 23:05)
Quote:

Am I the only one who likes the idea that Travis' shyness/ lack of social life is just fairly typical of those who have the time to put into getting Eagle Scout at 15?


In real life, sure. From a story standpoint, the fact that it's been brought up at least twice (not counting the Lisa-owed-Travis-big-time element) convinces me that there's a payoff coming at some point, though I still haven't figured out anything plausible that it could be.

Doragoon, 27 July 01:37
Quote:

as far as the "jackets" the tuckers put on. i don't know why everyone thinks that means they are going to go out and shoot someone.


I don't know that everyone does think so. Arming the family just didn't strike me as a purely defensive measure. You're right, though, about Bill's natural paranoia leading in that direction -- and (though Bill didn't know about it at the time) inasmuch as Mike's tires got slashed, the possibility of a conspiracy threatening Tuck's friends and relatives isn't all that crazy an idea. I'm inclined to think that we readers know enough after the current chapter to say that it isn't true, but Mike and the Tuckers don't.

Doragoon, 27 July 01:37
Quote:

i think the family WILL involve the police. for precedent, i offer the attack on freehold.


It seems to me that their turning the hacker over to the authorities was almost an afterthought -- they took direct action first.

My impression is that they consider law enforcement a utility -- something like the various tools and weapons they carry. We've enountered situations in which a pellet gun or a knife was the most efficient choice; there would be others where they'd go for a gun or a grenade or the police. It remains to be seen what they decide here -- so far there's been no evidence other than the tire slashing that any potentially lethal weapons are being used against them. I'm not sure what conclusion Bill and the others would draw from that.

There's also some question as to what anyone could prove in court: if the perpetrators asserted that they were trying to prevent a dangerous pervert from doing something violent (and supported their story with their injuries in the fight), would a jury react to the morality issue rather than the obvious physical mismatch? Also, as noted previously, the actual life threat was the asthma, not the attack per se. Assuming Tuck survives, it seems to me the most anyone can be charged with is aggravated assault. Furthermore, if anyone tried to hold the attackers responsible for endangering Tuck's life, the cheerleaders and jocks could each blame each other, and unless the prosecution could prove a conspiracy among the two groups (difficult under any circumstances, virtually impossible here since as far as we know there wasn't one, and probably only possible to prove through wiretap evidence inadmissible in court), it'd be hard to make a case against either group.

Given that situation, assuming Mike and Bill (and Tuck) reasoned it out the way I did, they wouldn't want to present the case to the police without taking some action first. Still, while they presumably would emphatically disagree with Asimov's assertion that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, I think they'd look for a nonlethal solution before resorting to murder.

Doragoon, 27 July 01:37
Quote:

(i forget: is this before or after the rash of school shootings?)

Before. Parking lot security, at least, will probably improve once Columbine takes place.

Eric
Re: What Next? [message #2045] Wed, 28 July 2004 14:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Eric wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 05:56

(OtherEric, 26 July 23:05)
Quote:

Am I the only one who likes the idea that Travis' shyness/ lack of social life is just fairly typical of those who have the time to put into getting Eagle Scout at 15?


In real life, sure. From a story standpoint, the fact that it's been brought up at least twice (not counting the Lisa-owed-Travis-big-time element) convinces me that there's a payoff coming at some point, though I still haven't figured out anything plausible that it could be.

Eric


I thought that there was a fairly obvious interpretation all the time. People have expressed surprise at seeing Travis with a GIRLfriend. The rumors may have been that Travis is gay, possibly spread by a former girlfriend?

And maybe this is why Travis is so accepting of Valerie's little oddity? He may have had doubts about his own sexuality, or he may have just been sensitized to being the odd person out by the rumors about him.

- Erin
Re: What Next? [message #2046] Wed, 28 July 2004 19:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cate
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One line that keeps popping up in this thread is "the real threat of death came from the asthma attack." The attack was a very real threat to Tuck's life; but it was a side issue. The pneumothorax was not neccessitated by the asthma attack. It was needed because the A**holes who beat on Tuck cause such massive internal injury that the accumumaltion of blood in Tuck's chest was so severe hir lungs had no room to expand and take in air.
This is massive overuse of force for just a "schoolyard scuffle". This easily meets the legal threshold of "assault with intent to do great bodily harm". Attempted murder would not be a streach in many venues.

Whether the authorities in pre-Columbine Tuckerville will go that far is a different question. Local prejudices, political and financial importance of the victim's or the attacker's parents, religious inclinations of the general community, and or previous like incidents [or lack therof] will color the response this sordid attack provokes from the authorities. I can see it going either way. Zero tolerence, or "just boys-being-boys" could be the law enforcement establishment's response.

How Bill reacts will probably decided by that governmental reaction. If he does go unilateral, I doubt he will involve Mike [out of concern for Mike's wellbeing]. If he gets anyone to help it would be Lanier, or some as yet unmentioned military buddy.

Tuck may not come out of this with neurological complications; but Post-Traumatic-Stress Syndrome is almost guarnteed. How this effects Eugene vs. Valerie decisions by Tuck is anyone's guess.

Outting to the Parkers may come if Mrs. Parker decides to visit Valerie at the hospital. It could just as easily come via the evening news. It all depends on how much play the story of a vicious school beating gets from the local print and electonic media. If that happens, it won't matter how Debbie spins the story.
Re: What Next? [message #2047] Thu, 29 July 2004 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
chuff  is currently offline chuff
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Cate wrote on Thu, 29 July 2004 00:13


How Bill reacts will probably decided by that governmental reaction. If he does go unilateral, I doubt he will involve Mike [out of concern for Mike's wellbeing]. If he gets anyone to help it would be Lanier, or some as yet unmentioned military buddy.


Time for a John Clark meets the Tuckers crossover, YAY Smile
Re: What Next? [message #2048] Thu, 29 July 2004 16:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 11:38


I thought that there was a fairly obvious interpretation all the time. People have expressed surprise at seeing Travis with a GIRLfriend. The rumors may have been that Travis is gay, possibly spread by a former girlfriend?


I did think of that, if not how it would have started. But I couldn't make it work. If that's the case, Travis seems to have an amazingly tolerant group of friends among the jocks and cheerleaders. Whether or not they believed the rumor, their natural reaction would be to isolate him rather than risk their own status as members of the ingroup. (And the ones who expressed their surprise presumably believed the rumor until they were introduced to Valerie. If anything, that makes their acceptance of Travis even more courageous.)

The only way it'd work, as I see it, is if there had been an incident that no one except his friends knew about. But that only works if there's complete assurance that the knowledge won't spread beyond the immediate group, and that a spread within the group is harmless. It's difficult for me to see how that situation could happen.

A relationship with a teacher (of either sex)? If that stirred envy among the group (at Travis's effrontery, at least) rather than horror, it could give everyone who knew about it an incentive to keep it quiet rather than risk reprisal from the teacher. Travis might "owe Lisa big time" because she threatened to spread the information to McAllen people who'd have no reason to keep it a secret, or to broadcast it over the pirate PA systems at either or both schools. But there's enough crosstalk between people at the two schools that either people would be lining up to blackmail Travis (he did owe Book some money) or the secret would be out (and Tuck would know about it), or both. And if Lisa admitted her role in the PA thing, there'd be parity of threat there and Travis wouldn't owe Lisa big time. Besides, somebody would realize that their hold over the teacher was considerably stronger than the reprisal threat, unless the teacher could convince the students that he/she had the Mafia behind him/her or something.

So that doesn't seem to work, either.

Eric
Re: What Next? [message #2049] Thu, 29 July 2004 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Eric wrote on Thu, 29 July 2004 21:18

Travis might "owe Lisa big time" because...


Actually, wasn't it supposed to be the other way round?


Rachel
Re: What Next? [message #2050] Thu, 29 July 2004 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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This clearly isn't my week...

rachel.greenham wrote on Thu, 29 July 2004 13:21

Eric wrote on Thu, 29 July 2004 21:18

Travis might "owe Lisa big time" because...


Actually, wasn't it supposed to be the other way round?


Uh, yeah. Sorry about that. That crashes a lot of hypotheses...

cate wrote on Wed, 28 July 16:13

One line that keeps popping up in this thread is "the real threat of death came from the asthma attack." The attack was a very real threat to Tuck's life; but it was a side issue. The pneumothorax was not neccessitated by the asthma attack. It was needed because the A**holes who beat on Tuck cause such massive internal injury that the accumumaltion of blood in Tuck's chest was so severe hir lungs had no room to expand and take in air.


Thanks for the correction. (As you pointed out, though, you still need a justice system that decides to press that kind of charge for anything to happen.)

doragoon wrote on Tue, 27 July 01:37

i think the family WILL involve the police. for precedent, i offer the attack on freehold.


I re-read that scene this morning and you're more correct than I was in my previous response. Bill's solution was to call in the FBI after defensive moves to preserve Freehold; it was Tuck who as an afterthought made a move in reprisal, and even there, as he noted, it was one that could be viewed by the authorities as nothing more than a way of preserving the evidence.

I'd still suggest -- you didn't argue otherwise, of course -- that Bill looks at the authorities as just another tool potentially as his disposal; he'll use it, or any other weapon, if he considers it the most efficient way to get things done.
Re: What Next? [message #2051] Thu, 29 July 2004 19:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Eric wrote on Thu, 29 July 2004 16:18

I did think of that, if not how it would have started. But I couldn't make it work. If that's the case, Travis seems to have an amazingly tolerant group of friends among the jocks and cheerleaders. Whether or not they believed the rumor, their natural reaction would be to isolate him rather than risk their own status as members of the ingroup. (And the ones who expressed their surprise presumably believed the rumor until they were introduced to Valerie. If anything, that makes their acceptance of Travis even more courageous.)


I didn't grow up in a particularly liberated area, a farming comuunity in rural California. But in high school, one of the athletic stars of the school, a big blond guy with muscles and dimples and all that, had a well-knonwn boyfriend. He had girlfriends, too, but they came and went, his boyfriend and he had been together forever. Weirdly, the swishy boyfriend was regarded as gay (or queer, as the word was then) while the big blond football player was regarded as merely "queer for" his skinny lisping friend. So, if you are a big athletic star, you get away with things that would get other people killed.


Quote:

The only way it'd work, as I see it, is if there had been an incident that no one except his friends knew about. But that only works if there's complete assurance that the knowledge won't spread beyond the immediate group, and that a spread within the group is harmless. It's difficult for me to see how that situation could happen.


One word answer to this: Tuck. Smile

- Erin
Re: What Next? [message #2052] Fri, 30 July 2004 00:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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chuff wrote on Thu, 29 July 2004 11:46


Time for a John Clark meets the Tuckers crossover, YAY Smile


Ok, I need to ask: Who? A quick google of the name starts with ten links that apparently point to ten different individuals, none of whom seem like an immediately obvious candidate for whoever you're talking about.

More importantly, welcome to the group! Please don't let my asking for more information on your first post discourage you from making more- that always throws me badly when it happens to me, but that's not what I want to do to you.
Re: What Next? [message #2053] Fri, 30 July 2004 03:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Upinmyhead  is currently offline Upinmyhead
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John Clark is a character in quite a few books written by Tom Clancy. He's an ex-Navy SEAL and CIA operative. At times he's been known to resort to some vigilante behaviour, particularly in the book "Without Remorse".
Re: What Next? [message #2055] Sat, 31 July 2004 10:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
chuff  is currently offline chuff
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Thanks for the welcome Smile

For those not familiar with the work of Tom Clancy in printed form, John Clark was the character played by Willem Dafoe, in the film version of "Clear and Present Danger", as well as by Liev Schreiber in the film of "Sum of All Fears".
(Then again if you're not a Clancy fan, you'd hardly want to watch any of the films of his books)

Back on topic, I think that whilst Tuck is in hospital his parents will have the amorphous mass removed. I feel that this would go along with the way they think - Tuck hates hospitals and since Tuck is already in one, what better time to have the lump removed?
Then again we do not know if further surgery is already planned for some other internal injury.

Re: What Next? [message #2057] Sun, 01 August 2004 17:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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chuff wrote on Sat, 31 July 2004 07:55


Back on topic, I think that whilst Tuck is in hospital his parents will have the amorphous mass removed. I feel that this would go along with the way they think - Tuck hates hospitals and since Tuck is already in one, what better time to have the lump removed?
Then again we do not know if further surgery is already planned for some other internal injury.



Interesting point. On the other hand, as I understand it, further surgery is Not Recommended while one's body is still trying to recover from emergency surgery (or the illness or injury that made it necessary).
Re: What Next? [message #2059] Sun, 01 August 2004 19:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Eric wrote on Sun, 01 August 2004 14:33

Interesting point. On the other hand, as I understand it, further surgery is Not Recommended while one's body is still trying to recover from emergency surgery (or the illness or injury that made it necessary).

I think it's entirely possible that some new detail on what's exactly going on in Tuck's body coming to light as a result of surgery related to Tuck's emergency is quite possible. I don't think the family will have them remove anything, even if the doctors suggest it, until Tuck has the chance to weigh in on the subject. (As Erin pointed out a while ago, the mass is there as a mcguffin to force Tuck to think about surgery. So, it's staying there until Tuck decides to do something.) If the subject does come up, I could easily see the parents getting in an argument. I think Mom would want everything out- and Dad would insist it's Tuck's decision. Mom would not be happy about that, to say the least.
Re: What Next? [message #2064] Sun, 01 August 2004 23:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cate
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My view of the Tucker family is that they hold VERY firmly to the concept of individual self-determination. I just can't reconcile snatching out something Tuck hasn't decided to have removed. That would be just too much of a violation of Tuck's rights; but, also, a violation of basic family tenets.

As I have said previously, it would not surprise me in the least if some a**hole surgeon removed the mass of his own volition. That type of thing is still done way to often by "old-school" surgeons.

[Updated on: Sun, 01 August 2004 23:51]

Re: What Next? [message #2068] Mon, 02 August 2004 03:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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In real life, it could happen. But Tuck's life is an artistic creation by Ellen, everything that happens has a reason and that reason is either to advance the story or amuse Ellen.

The aftermath of unauthorized removal of the undifferntiated mass would have to be a diversion from the current direction the story is going, and I don't see it amusing Ellen sufficiently to be included for that reason.

I can see this stay in the hospital being the window through which LOTS of people get in on the Tuck secret. But I think Ellen will keep that to a minimum, too. To much noise there would blow off the Parkers and I don't think Ellen is through with what they can add to Tuck's life as an island where Valerie can just be Valerie.

- Erin
Travis ... (was Re: What Next?) [message #2117] Sat, 21 August 2004 05:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
StealthTS  is currently offline StealthTS
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Thu, 29 July 2004 16:01

Eric wrote on Thu, 29 July 2004 16:18

I did think of that, if not how it would have started. But I couldn't make it work. If that's the case, Travis seems to have an amazingly tolerant group of friends among the jocks and cheerleaders. Whether or not they believed the rumor, their natural reaction would be to isolate him rather than risk their own status as members of the ingroup. (And the ones who expressed their surprise presumably believed the rumor until they were introduced to Valerie. If anything, that makes their acceptance of Travis even more courageous.)


I didn't grow up in a particularly liberated area, a farming comuunity in rural California. But in high school, one of the athletic stars of the school, a big blond guy with muscles and dimples and all that, had a well-knonwn boyfriend. He had girlfriends, too, but they came and went, his boyfriend and he had been together forever. Weirdly, the swishy boyfriend was regarded as gay (or queer, as the word was then) while the big blond football player was regarded as merely "queer for" his skinny lisping friend. So, if you are a big athletic star, you get away with things that would get other people killed.



One thing that everyone is assuming is Travis is gay. Yes, he and Va-Tuck have had sexual relations, but Travis mentioned that he sees Tuck as a girl, thus, in his mind, I would think that he doesn't see himself as gay, but is instead in a (well, ok not normal) relationship.

I bring this up because this happens in Real Life(tm). My relationship with my fiance, for example, started nearly 5 years ago. He didn't know of my past at the time (until we had been together for 6 months or so) and I was still pre-op. In fact, didn't think I'd ever see surgery (see my quick bio). Admittedly, we didn't have any penetrative sex, but I'd go down on him. Plus, he was more than willing to go down on me (though it never felt right until after surgery).

Though my relationship isn't exactly like Tuck's, much of the emotion is very similar. Tuck may see himself as being gay, but honestly, I'd bet Travis doesn't.

Mel "Wheee! My first post!"


In my spare time, I like to insult fruit. Damn fruit.
Re: Travis [message #2118] Sat, 21 August 2004 06:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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StealthTS wrote on Sat, 21 August 2004 02:57

One thing that everyone is assuming is Travis is gay. Yes, he and Va-Tuck have had sexual relations, but Travis mentioned that he sees Tuck as a girl, thus, in his mind, I would think that he doesn't see himself as gay, but is instead in a (well, ok not normal) relationship.


Welcome, Mel.

It's possible you started reading this chain too far down, or missed something while parts of the board were truncating messages -- or else that our Usual Gang has been writing stuff that's more clear to us than to new readers.

Anyway, I don't know (offhand) of anyone here who's assuming that Travis thinks he's gay. Erin brought up as a hypothesis that a rumor around Red Bluff High to that effect might explain why Tuck has reported repeatedly that people Travis knows are surprised when they see Travis and Valerie out together. In the two notes you quoted, I then explained why I couldn't make that work, and Erin came back with her suggestion as to how it could.

Travis's explanation to Valerie, of course, was that he's shy around girls, even to the extent of his mother setting up his junior prom date. Valerie had her doubts. Since at the time this was coming up there were reasons -- perhaps more so than now -- to suspect that information from Travis wasn't reliable, there's been continued discussion of this on various parts of the board. OtherEric brought it up again as something of an afterthought here about eleven posts back, which is what launched this particular part of the discussion.

Sorry for the wordy explanation...

Best, Eric
Re: Travis [message #2119] Sat, 21 August 2004 17:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Eric wrote on Sat, 21 August 2004 03:39


Welcome, Mel.


Thanks! Smile

Quote:


It's possible you started reading this chain too far down, or missed something while parts of the board were truncating messages -- or else that our Usual Gang has been writing stuff that's more clear to us than to new readers.



Probably. I was pretty tired last night when I finally came to the boards. I wanted to read up on the stories first. I don't mind spoilers, but you know how it can be. I kept reading... and reading... and reading... and noticing it was 5 am. Smile

Quote:


Anyway, I don't know (offhand) of anyone here who's assuming that Travis thinks he's gay. Erin brought up as a hypothesis that a rumor around Red Bluff High to that effect might explain why Tuck has reported repeatedly that people Travis knows are surprised when they see Travis and Valerie out together. In the two notes you quoted, I then explained why I couldn't make that work, and Erin came back with her suggestion as to how it could.

Travis's explanation to Valerie, of course, was that he's shy around girls, even to the extent of his mother setting up his junior prom date. Valerie had her doubts. Since at the time this was coming up there were reasons -- perhaps more so than now -- to suspect that information from Travis wasn't reliable, there's been continued discussion of this on various parts of the board. OtherEric brought it up again as something of an afterthought here about eleven posts back, which is what launched this particular part of the discussion.

Sorry for the wordy explanation...

Best, Eric


ahh, ok. I missed those. Smile It's just something I see time and time again in RL. A guy dates a T* girl. People find out and then assume the guy is gay. *sigh* It's one of my fears for my fiance. He's not gay, though he's very liberal. We dated for 6 months before I ever told him (crying the whole time) and he thought about it for a while and said "I don't care. I care about you."

I see *alot* of parallels in Tuck's story to me, but at a different age. Though he's not transitioning (yet, maybe), I did in college. I play RPGs, am into guns, archery, reading, computers (another Unixhead), dislike MS (used to work for 'em), my family is nuts (ok. everyone's is) and I got beat up in school.

Oh yeah, and I was born Intersexed too, but brought up as male after a "surgery" to "fix" things. I grew up with my parents wanting to inspect *cough* it all the time to see if it had grown. I didn't find out about being IS until about 4 or 5 years ago and I've been living as a girl for well over 9.

Some parallels I don't see happening though is that when I came out, my grandmother handed me a knife and told me to kill myself because it was more honorable. And yeah, she was serious. :/ I hate being Asian sometimes.. and the oldest of 5... and the other 4 are girls.

So, it was tough reading what happened to Tuck. I cried with him at the bad spots, because it reminded me alot of mine, and laughed at the good. I just hope things work out being him and Travis, like things have between me and my fiance.

Ok. I really hadn't meant this to be as long as it was Razz

Mel "OOoooh. Second posting!"


In my spare time, I like to insult fruit. Damn fruit.
Re: Travis [message #2124] Sun, 22 August 2004 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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You know, I'm really curious and interested to see what happens with Travis... when he finds out that Val is in the hospital and what happened to her. Will he freak out? Will he end up at the hospital? Will there be a meeting of him and Val's parent's accidentally?

If they meet, I hope things go well and that Val's parents realize how much Travis cares for Val, assuming that he really does (as evident as it seems).

Mel who can't wait for the next chapter. Smile


In my spare time, I like to insult fruit. Damn fruit.
Re: What Next? [message #2401] Wed, 22 September 2004 18:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cate
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Not in keeping with this thread; but this seems to fall best under its' title "What's next". Anyone have thoughts about the title for chapter 106? My guess is it will have another Fink Ployd tie-in.
If so, my vote goes to "Your possible pasts".
Any other guesses, folks??
Re: What Next? [message #2405] Wed, 22 September 2004 21:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Cate wrote on Wed, 22 September 2004 15:31

Anyone have thoughts about the title for chapter 106? My guess is it will have another Fink Ployd tie-in.
If so, my vote goes to "Your possible pasts".
Any other guesses, folks??

Dear Ghu, don't let it be "Brain Damage". Sad
"Coming Back to Life" could be nice, and will hopefully fit.Smile
I'm pretty sure it will be another 3rd-person episode, since Ellen said a fair bit of it was already started with overflow from #105. Floyd titles can just get scary for this sort of game, though.
Re: What Next? [message #2413] Thu, 23 September 2004 01:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Raadsel  is currently offline Raadsel
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My thoughts, though I'm sure Ellen will find plenty of ways to surprise me:

That Tuck is not in a coma but in a trance (for lack of a better word). That he is trying to figure out what he/she wants while things are quiet and he can't be disturbed. I suspect that when Mike is with him over the weekend, Mike will provide a trigger to wake Tuck from his trance.

It may be wishful thinking on my part, but I see Tuck waking up and wanting to become Val full-time, except for those times when Tuck mode has advantages.

I see his mother not being able to accept that decision and becoming hysterical when told. I can't help but think back to her mantra of "my son, my son" while she held him. I can't help but feel part of the reason for the mantra is that while holding him was because she was wishing to really make him male; his female physical attributes became more pronounced for her -- no baggy clothes to hide his body -- and that triggered the need for denial in her. I think Mrs. Tuck will go through a mental struggle to accept Val similar to what Tuck has had to go through to become Val (it's hard to give you your first son).

I feel that the wiretaps will give them enough information to know who the suspects are and that Tuck will confirm it once he awakes. I don't feel that anyone will die, I think the Tuckers will allow the legal system to attempt to provide justice, and step in only if the case is bungled or minimized by the DA. So, jail terms for the perpetrators (perhaps not the cheerleaders) but that the Rat Boys (with advice and approval from Mr. Tuck), prior to the perps going to jail, will take some additional revenge. The perps will not only be charged with assault but also for grand larceny (theft of the computer).

Looking on the 'Net, Ohio hate crimes law does not include gender orientation or expression, so that is not an issue -- that's assuming Tuck does reside in Ohio. I'm not aware of anything stating that Tuck does, I'm mostly thinking it in relation to his day trips to King's Island, but Indiana or Kentucky are very close as well.

I feel Travis will find out about the attack soon and will want to see Val. I'm not sure what fireworks that will start, though I do see Travis and Val together for the near future.

I'm sure there's more I've forgotten that I've thought, just curious what others might think.
Re: What Next? [message #2418] Thu, 23 September 2004 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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martenkemp wrote on Thu, 23 September 2004 12:24

I have the feeling that Tuck's not really unconscious due to the trauma any more. Right now it's just easier to stay somewhere else than to come back. Eugene was put in the hospital by the thugs at school; Sarah's hysterical about Val, plus Val pissed off Travis; Tuck has a screwed up body and Big Irreversible Decisions need to be made at some point and everyone's pressuring for them to be made soon.


I said much the same thing in another thread.

martenkemp wrote on Thu, 23 September 2004 12:24

My suggestion would be for Sarah to stroke Tuck's forehead and tell him, "Come back to us. As Eugene, Tuck or Valerie, but come back."


I don't see Sarah being at the point where she *can* do that yet.

Very unlikely way to wake Tuck up. Travis finds out, comes to visit and kisses Tuck. But a "Sleeping Beauty" scene is a bit too trite/silly/cliched for Ellen.

Alternately, Travis shows up, Debbie lets him in (say while Mike is on watch). Sarah walks in as he's holding Val's hand and talking to her.

And then Sarah goes ballistic when Travis introduces himself as Valerie's boyfriend.

Tuck wakes up to tell Sarah to stop it.

BTW, Tu-Val does have a card he can play if Sarah pushes too far. He can petition a court to be made an emancipated minor *in spite* of his parent's wishes. He's got a job that pays well enough. Not sure where he'd live, but something could be worked out.

Mind you, that's *not* normal behavior for Tuck. But I can see things getting to the point where even he has had enough. And Shiela might just back him up on it.

martenkemp wrote on Thu, 23 September 2004 12:24

Note: I think that one reason Sarah is so hysterical is that she has some unconscious "gender role expectations" and watching Val babysitting produces some severe cognitive dissonance.


I think that beyond that, it's that Valerie is so *natural* as a "mother". And that may bother Sarah on several levels.

It's also why I hope that someone realizes that Val *can* have kids with some technological assistance, before it's too late (say before trying T injection for so long that they mess up her ovary).

Tuck can't be a father, and it's been shown that realizing that bothered him a lot. But he can still be a *mother*, even if someone else has to carry the kid to term.

Re: What Next? [message #2435] Fri, 24 September 2004 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Brooke wrote on Thu, 23 September 2004 23:15

Very unlikely way to wake Tuck up. Travis finds out, comes to visit and kisses Tuck. But a "Sleeping Beauty" scene is a bit too trite/silly/cliched for Ellen.

One thing that had occurred to me, but I'm not going to use it so I'll put it here for your amusement...

Travis finds out about Valerie being in the hospital, gets all upset and manages to get the information out of Mike or one of the Pack. As he's there, he gets upset and kisses her, crying and saying soft endearments...
Meanwhile, 'a few minutes ago' in Tuck's mind, he had some large angry men surrounding him and trying to beat him to death. And now he's hearing...
And Tuck 'cold boots' like he's done before, right into a fight for his life, which he is determined not to lose 'a second time'.
Maybe the two of them could be put in the same hospital room to recover...


Ellen
nosig
Re: What Next? [message #2436] Fri, 24 September 2004 15:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Hmmm...interesting. Leaves one to muse whether Tuck ever attacked anyone that slept next to him that he felt safe while in the concious/awaken state. Otherwise Dr. Dana's trick with allowing Tuck's family to stay as part of the medical procedure might be compromised.
In keeping with Mono-mania format (and in one paragraph)....
I would envision that if Travis were to come over, Tuck in dream state would see his situation morph suddenly as Val in a Princess Leah's outfit and Travis in a Han Solo outfit as they are being attacked. (Recall Travis needled Val if she want to see the movie with Harrison Ford - she opted for Spawn). Leah get's annoyed at Han's ineptitude at rescue and starts to bitch on Han's choice of useless Boy Scout rescue gear and starts to beat up on him.... Very Happy
Re: What Next? [message #2437] Fri, 24 September 2004 19:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Fri, 24 September 2004 08:26


Travis finds out about Valerie being in the hospital, gets all upset and manages to get the information out of Mike or one of the Pack. As he's there, he gets upset and kisses her, crying and saying soft endearments...
Meanwhile, 'a few minutes ago' in Tuck's mind, he had some large angry men surrounding him and trying to beat him to death. And now he's hearing...
And Tuck 'cold boots' like he's done before, right into a fight for his life, which he is determined not to lose 'a second time'.
Maybe the two of them could be put in the same hospital room to recover...


Ellen
nosig



Mini-Mono Mania format #2....

Meanwhile, 'a few minutes ago' in Tuck's mind,....
Tuck looks up and sees the White Star breaking through the dome ceiling. He turns around and sees Shannon the cheerleader with a group of Shadows approaching. Tuck jumps into the abyss. An occurs explosion behind/above him, he feels the intense heat, its difficult to breath. Tuck hears nothing - it's dead silent. Tuck's floating. He looks up and sees the face of Lorien. *Oh shit! - B5* Lorien speaks to him with Sheila's voice. "Who are you?", "What do you want", "How did you get here?". Alternate images of fun times with Mike, da Boyz, the Pack, and Stella sqealing playfully in his arms are going through his mind. Thought of being Valerie in Travis' arm together on his couch. Travis saying sweet nothings. Val feels warm, secure....safe. Then Travis say's to Valerie, " I got a couple friends who could help protect you if you get into trouble at your school. They go to your school. They're coming over now". Knock on Travis' door. It opens - standing there are the guys with big grins who beat him up in the locker room. Val goes ballistic and starts kicking the crap out of Travis....
Re: What Next? [message #2438] Fri, 24 September 2004 20:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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lurker wrote on Fri, 24 September 2004 16:20

Mini-Mono Mania format #2....

Meanwhile, 'a few minutes ago' in Tuck's mind,....
Tuck looks up and sees the White Star breaking through the dome ceiling. He turns around and sees Shannon the cheerleader with a group of Shadows approaching. Tuck jumps into the abyss. An occurs explosion behind/above him, he feels the intense heat, its difficult to breath. Tuck hears nothing - it's dead silent. Tuck's floating. He looks up and sees the face of Lorien. *Oh shit! - B5* Lorien speaks to him with Sheila's voice. "Who are you?", "What do you want", "How did you get here?". Alternate images of fun times with Mike, da Boyz, the Pack, and Stella sqealing playfully in his arms are going through his mind. Thought of being Valerie in Travis' arm together on his couch. Travis saying sweet nothings. Val feels warm, secure....safe. Then Travis say's to Valerie, " I got a couple friends who could help protect you if you get into trouble at your school. They go to your school. They're coming over now". Knock on Travis' door. It opens - standing there are the guys with big grins who beat him up in the locker room. Val goes ballistic and starts kicking the crap out of Travis....



Aiiieeeeee!!!!!!

Don't *do* that....

You had me nodding and going, "yeah, that might help" right up to the penultimate line...

Re: What Next? [message #2445] Sat, 25 September 2004 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Hey, I didn't say Travis did anything intentionally wrong. Just that Val came to her own conclusion. Which way did you think it was going? Jeez! It was just a dream!

Okay....my last one so you all won't suffer anymore. The only premise I'm keeping from Ellen's musing is what's happening just before Tuck wakes up. Toss everything else. Also, forgive my grammar, etc. I grew up speaking English in a non-English speaking family - it was just never a natural language for me and I certainly don't claim to be a writer - that's why I ended up an introverted engineer writing bad paragraphs.... Sad

Mini-Mono Mania format #3 (in about 1+ paragraph).......
Meanwhile, 'a few minutes ago' in Tuck's mind,....
Val was sitting in the food court waiting for Kim and Jill to finish their shopping. As Val was sucking on her slurpee, out of the corner of her eye she notices four guys occasionally looking her way. She freezes. *Oh fuck! It's Kyle and his friends* She nonchalantly gets up, grabs her bags, and starts walking the other way. As she turns the corner out of the food court, she notices the guys get up and start walking her way. Once out of direct sight, she makes a hard dash down the mall and ducks into a department store which has its own outside exit from the mall. She sees the guys pass by the store entrance scanning into it,... searching. Finally they move on. Val was crouching in the sporting goods section, turns.. Omph! "Val! What's going on?" It was Travis. "Are you okay?" This time his voice was different but familiar....
"Travis!", Val cries out in relief. She grabs him around the neck, closes her eyes and lands the deepest, face sucking, tonsil hockey kiss she could.
Tuck opens his eyes, he was in the hospital room, staring into Brian's face with Tuck's arms around him..."Yecch!... Ewww! Who the fuck is Travis?" as he pushes away Tuck. Mom was wide eyed looking on with complex emotions about her next reaction.....
Re: What Next? [message #2448] Sat, 25 September 2004 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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lurker wrote on Sat, 25 September 2004 13:03

Mini-Mono Mania format #3 (in about 1+ paragraph).......
Meanwhile, 'a few minutes ago' in Tuck's mind,....
Val was sitting in the food court waiting for Kim and Jill to finish their shopping. As Val was sucking on her slurpee, out of the corner of her eye she notices four guys occasionally looking her way. She freezes. *Oh fuck! It's Kyle and his friends* She nonchalantly gets up, grabs her bags, and starts walking the other way. As she turns the corner out of the food court, she notices the guys get up and start walking her way. Once out of direct sight, she makes a hard dash down the mall and ducks into a department store which has its own outside exit from the mall. She sees the guys pass by the store entrance scanning into it,... searching. Finally they move on. Val was crouching in the sporting goods section, turns.. Omph! "Val! What's going on?" It was Travis. "Are you okay?" This time his voice was different but familiar....
"Travis!", Val cries out in relief. She grabs him around the neck, closes her eyes and lands the deepest, face sucking, tonsil hockey kiss she could.
Tuck opens his eyes, he was in the hospital room, staring into Brian's face with Tuck's arms around him..."Yecch!... Ewww! Who the fuck is Travis?" as he pushes away Tuck. Mom was wide eyed looking on with complex emotions about her next reaction.....


Remember, Sarah has been told that Tuck is gay. she may not *believe* it though. at least not until something like this.

Ah. Found it.

Tuck 102

"None of my friends know," Brian mentioned, "or I'd have heard about it. They just think you're gay."
"Your little faggot friends think I'M-"
"EUGENE!" Dad barked. "Quiet, and don't be a bigot. You pipe down too," he ordered Brian.
"ARE you gay?" Mom asked.
"NO!" Brian shrieked, his voice cracking. I almost did too, but I couldn't, quite, and I think the inadvertant pause told them everything they didn't want to know.

***
15:58 5 Oct

After a long silence, during which I'd had to get up and blow my nose because I felt very very bad, Dad asked, "Eugene? What makes you think you are?"
I trembled for a while, then said, "I don't want to answer that question with Brian in the room." My voice trembled too, I was mildly annoyed to note; I hated sounding like a wimp in front of my parents. It happened often enough, but I still didn't like it.
Long pause, during which I studied the overly-familiar carpet in front of me. After a while, I noticed I was rocking again.
"Brian, go get us some drinks from downstairs, and knock before you come back in," Mom told him.
"I don't think I want to hear this either," Brian agreed as he got up and got out of there quickly, closing the door behind him.
Pause.
"I changed my mind," I said sickly. "Can, can we not talk about this for a w- Two weeks?" I corrected. It was too painful to deal with right now, I was discovering; and it was getting worse by the second.
"Why?!" she demanded.
"Please Mom!" I almost sobbed. "Just two weeks, I swear I'll talk about it then, just not now, please?!"
"Until the next session with Sheila," Dad bargained, and I nodded frantically. Anything but now-
"ARE you homosexual?" Mom asked.
"Yessss!" I forced out, and then I was really crying again. Then I went, "Ahh!" because I wasn't expecting to be touched, but it was Mom just kneeling and hugging me, and then I lost it completely.
"Eugene, We still love you," she crooned into my ear, but that just made me feel worse.


So she does know. And so does Brian.

BTW, that "next session with Shiela" is going to be a bear. And probably scheduled as soon after Tuck wakes up as is practical (ie as soon as he's cleared for the stress by the doctors)
Re: What Next? [message #2450] Sat, 25 September 2004 17:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Raadsel wrote on Wed, 22 September 2004 22:52

It may be wishful thinking on my part, but I see Tuck waking up and wanting to become Val full-time, except for those times when Tuck mode has advantages.


I'm using this as a jumping off point because I can't find the post I wanted to thread off of (the one where someone suggested that Tuck could wake up and not remember the breakup with Debbie).

Consider the fun if conciousness is regained, and things are a bit odder than that. Mind, you, I don't know if the mind can work this way as a response to trauma, but it's an interesting idea.

And I *don't* see Ellen doing this. But...

Conciousness is regained. And Bill and Sarah's second oldest child insists that *she* is Valerie. Not Tuck wanting to live as Val, but a personality break/change. (MPD with a new "Val" personality assuming the dominant role while the old personality hides and licks its wounds?)

Val will not accept that she's been anything but a girl. Ever. Memories to the contrary will be suppressed. Showing her her penis will *freak* her. Majorly.

Full fledged delusional system, but one that's as consistent as is possible (and given what Tuck has been thru, it'll have a lot of consistency, especially since Halloween)

I assume she'd probably recover or re-integrate eventually. But in the meantime, life would be even *more* interesting. But for once, a lot of the strain would be on everyone else.

Re: What Next? [message #2456] Sun, 26 September 2004 00:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Brooke wrote on Sat, 25 September 2004 13:54


Remember, Sarah has been told that Tuck is gay. she may not *believe* it though. at least not until something like this.



Yes, this was written with the fact that Mom and Brian knew about this. Also, recall that when Sarah accompanied Val to the Parker's while Val was grounded, Sarah was still working on accepting this fact....

From 16:14 7 Oct


She stood up. "Do you swear to stay here until someone picks you up tonight?"
"I can't go anywhere, I don't have a car," I reminded her. "Yes, I swear!" I said as she opened her mouth, probably to say something that started with 'Eugene'.
"Fine," she said, and left.
I followed, staying well behind her, and she said goodbye to Ricky, who was camped out rotting his brain in front of the television, and then she turned to me. "I don't..." she started, then stopped, looking stuck as she winced. "Eu- I love, you, but I can't handle this," she rushed out, then she went out the front door, got in her car, and left.



When Ellen wrote that part, I thought it was great slice of life. Tuck's parents appear in denial at that time, Sarah was set up to be outwardly expressive of this. Ellen still hasn't fully resolve this plot point about the feelings of the parents yet but I'm sure she'll get there. It's too bad we can't see the pain Bill is going through with this. He just seem to be working the "Tucker security" issues - but has expressed nothing on how he feels about this. I believe that they want to accept whatever's best for Tuck, they just need Tuck to decide so they can help him get there. But, they too need working their own emotional baggage out themselves - imagine the guilt of wondering what they might have or could have done and avoided this crisis point. I view it as fate - it's this family's journey in life and their growth in how they deal with it.

A further comment on the lucid B5 Tuck dream. I couldn't resist the questions by Lorien as universal in self soul searching - so I had to throw it at Tuck. As for Val's reaction of turning on Travis at the end..... it wasn't meant as what Travis thought, but rather Val's thoughts and possibly in a paranoid state. _Could_ she believe that Travis would betray her? Debbie freaked out on Tuck, would Travis ever freak on Val? Val never fully explained to Travis about his Tuck personna. It's got to be going through Val's mind. Val's paranoia, both real and imagined, will be a scar that will deny Val/Tuck comfort to easily trust someone going forward in life...

Re: What Next? [message #2458] Sun, 26 September 2004 04:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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lurker wrote on Sat, 25 September 2004 21:59

Tuck's parents appear in denial at that time, Sarah was set up to be outwardly expressive of this. Ellen still hasn't fully resolve this plot point about the feelings of the parents yet but I'm sure she'll get there. It's too bad we can't see the pain Bill is going through with this. He just seem to be working the "Tucker security" issues - but has expressed nothing on how he feels about this. I believe that they want to accept whatever's best for Tuck, they just need Tuck to decide so they can help him get there. But, they too need working their own emotional baggage out themselves - imagine the guilt of wondering what they might have or could have done and avoided this crisis point. I view it as fate - it's this family's journey in life and their growth in how they deal with it.


Actually, I may be being unfair, but I don't see Sarah as being past "Eugene lied to us" and "How can*he* being doing these things". Before the attack, she showed no sign of beginning to accept the *possibility* of Tuck going female.

Bill comes across as not understanding how Tuck can do it so easily, but not not being that bothered by Val. "Ok, I want to know why Tuck is doing this, but if he's happy with it maybe it's what he should do."

Sarah seems to have a lot more of an "investment" in "Eugene". Heck, her reaction to his dislike of the name is itself telling.

She seems to have a more rigid worldview. Less able to deal with the idea that her perceptions of reality (at least about her children) may not resemble the *actual* children.

A common blindspot with parents, just worse than usual.

lurker wrote on Sat, 25 September 2004 21:59

A further comment on the lucid B5 Tuck dream. I couldn't resist the questions by Lorien as universal in self soul searching - so I had to throw it at Tuck. As for Val's reaction of turning on Travis at the end..... it wasn't meant as what Travis thought, but rather Val's thoughts and possibly in a paranoid state. _Could_ she believe that Travis would betray her? Debbie freaked out on Tuck, would Travis ever freak on Val? Val never fully explained to Travis about his Tuck personna. It's got to be going through Val's mind. Val's paranoia, both real and imagined, will be a scar that will deny Val/Tuck comfort to easily trust someone going forward in life...


Given the fact that Tuck has had nightmares where it was Travis throwing hiom to the wolves, I think that says that at least part of him can believe Travis would do it.

I suspect that Travis thought (until Val got busted by Sarah, and the aftermath) that Val was a TS who was transitioning or some such, if he ever thought that far.

Re: What Next? [message #2469] Tue, 28 September 2004 15:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
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Brooke wrote on Sun, 26 September 2004 03:58

lurker wrote on Sat, 25 September 2004 21:59

Tuck's parents appear in denial at that time, Sarah was set up to be outwardly expressive of this. Ellen still hasn't fully resolve this plot point about the feelings of the parents yet but I'm sure she'll get there. It's too bad we can't see the pain Bill is going through with this. He just seem to be working the "Tucker security" issues - but has expressed nothing on how he feels about this. I believe that they want to accept whatever's best for Tuck, they just need Tuck to decide so they can help him get there. But, they too need working their own emotional baggage out themselves - imagine the guilt of wondering what they might have or could have done and avoided this crisis point. I view it as fate - it's this family's journey in life and their growth in how they deal with it.


Actually, I may be being unfair, but I don't see Sarah as being past "Eugene lied to us" and "How can*he* being doing these things". Before the attack, she showed no sign of beginning to accept the *possibility* of Tuck going female.

Bill comes across as not understanding how Tuck can do it so easily, but not not being that bothered by Val. "Ok, I want to know why Tuck is doing this, but if he's happy with it maybe it's what he should do."

Sarah seems to have a lot more of an "investment" in "Eugene". Heck, her reaction to his dislike of the name is itself telling.

She seems to have a more rigid worldview. Less able to deal with the idea that her perceptions of reality (at least about her children) may not resemble the *actual* children.

A common blindspot with parents, just worse than usual.

quote]

Given the fact that Tuck has had nightmares where it was Travis throwing hiom to the wolves, I think that says that at least part of him can believe Travis would do it.

I suspect that Travis thought (until Val got busted by Sarah, and the aftermath) that Val was a TS who was transitioning or some such, if he ever thought that far.





As far as Sarah. . . Valarie possibly represents her worst fears in that she may have made an error in raising her child as male. Imagine as a parent you knew from birth that your child was intersexed and was told shortly after birth that the malformations could be corrected in the genetalia. Agreeing at the time to make the child male in appearance and in good faith she raised the child thinking she and Bill made the right choice until the discovery of Valarie and upon seeing how Valarie is female in her appearance, demeanor, actions/reactions and nuturing nature with the children, she couldn't handle it and went into major depression. Imagine the conflict of knowing that her child was not what she was told and knowing that she was partially responsible. She is loosing her son but is having a very hard time dealing with the reality and mental conflict it is causing. One can hope Bill will have a heart to heart with her and go through the facts of Tuck/Valarie's physical and mental condition. It may take more than a heart to heart to help Sarah get through this. Therapy for her is needed (if she will go)to deal with the new and old truths that she has denied or kept in the family skeleton closet for so long. Hopefully she will put things in proper perspective and make the right choices. Bill is more accepting and open than Sarah as his reaction to Valarie was positive. He observed that Valarie was just like her mother and sister naturally without effort. That along with the natural physical changes definately has Bill seeing Eugene as Valarie. If I remember correctly Bill did call Valarie by name in one chapter. Getting Sarah to acknowledge the truth and reality will be a job in itself.


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: What Next? [message #2472] Tue, 28 September 2004 18:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Vicki wrote on Tue, 28 September 2004 12:35

As far as Sarah. . . Valarie possibly represents her worst fears in that she may have made an error in raising her child as male. Imagine as a parent you knew from birth that your child was intersexed and was told shortly after birth that the malformations could be corrected in the genetalia. Agreeing at the time to make the child male in appearance and in good faith she raised the child thinking she and Bill made the right choice until the discovery of Valarie and upon seeing how Valarie is female in her appearance, demeanor, actions/reactions and nuturing nature with the children, she couldn't handle it and went into major depression.


Nope, that scenario is out unless Sarah and Bill are both lying to Tuck and fairly good actors...

Tuck96

16:27 25 Sep

What Mom drew this time looked like she'd superimposed the previous two, male and female, on top of each other, then erased lines randomly.

Which was a rough analogy of what had happened to me.

"External penis," Mom pointed out, "no testes, a small scrotum. Urethra goes through the penis, though there's some question bout
whether he started with it there."

"What?" someone asked, maybe me.

Mom's jaw tightened. "They found a bit of scarring, Eugene, as if someone had done some repair work around the time you were born. No one EVER told either of us ANYTHING about it." I hoped that my friends recognized the danger signs; Mom was about to go off, and it would be best if she didn't, because the one she'd want to hit wasn't even in this state.


And I'll note that it apparently *was* (and may still be in some places) customary to not "bother" parents about "easily correctable" IS cases.

Vicki wrote on Tue, 28 September 2004 12:35

Imagine the conflict of knowing that her child was not what she was told and knowing that she was partially responsible. She is loosing her son but is having a very hard time dealing with the reality and mental conflict it is causing. One can hope Bill will have a heart to heart with her and go through the facts of Tuck/Valarie's physical and mental condition. It may take more than a heart to heart to help Sarah get through this. Therapy for her is needed (if she will go)to deal with the new and old truths that she has denied or kept in the family skeleton closet for so long. Hopefully she will put things in proper perspective and make the right choices. Bill is more accepting and open than Sarah as his reaction to Valarie was positive. He observed that Valarie was just like her mother and sister naturally without effort. That along with the natural physical changes definately has Bill seeing Eugene as Valarie. If I remember correctly Bill did call Valarie by name in one chapter. Getting Sarah to acknowledge the truth and reality will be a job in itself.


Well, the quote makes it pretty clear that Sarah *didn't* even suspect Tuck was IS until the tests.

I agree that she's having trouble accepting things. But I'm more inclined to see it as "just" a bad case pf "parental blindness". Seeing your child as what you want/expect and not seeing that they not only don't fit the image you have, but that part of that image is fiundamentally incompatible with their basic personality.

Been there, done that, don't want the t-shirt.

The only thing worse than a well meaning parent taking "corrective" measures that instead of helping, drive the kid farther away is a deliberastely abusive parent.

The "classic" example of the sort of well meaning mistake I mention is the parent of a bright kid who keeps going "you can do better than that" because the kid isn't getting straight As. And then can't figure out why the kid quits trying...

Gee, maybe it's because all that trying got was exhortations to try harder?

Telling a kid they can do better (unless they are working *way* below* their abilities) needs to be combined with some *positive* reinforcement.

But I digress. Sarah's behavior strikes me as being consistent with working from a very flawed set of assumptions about Eugene.

The "His name is Eugene!" and Debbie's response in Tuck 101(?) is telling. "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up".

She *may* just be an idealist of sorts. One who reacts to the world differing from the way she thinks it should be by trying to force it to fit. Deciding that her "ideal" is wrong opr at least needs adjusting would be the last resort. One she hasn't reached with regards to Tuck yet.

Note that she's still going "My son" while watching over him at the hospital. It's mostly habit, but I suspect that some of it is that Valerie makes her very uncomfortable because it clashes so badly with her image of Eugene. An image she is willing to fight to keep.

She's apt to need a 2x4 between the eyes to accept Valerie as a valid option for Tuck. And even if she gets that far, accepting it if Tuck *chooses* Val over Eugene will be just as hard.

Mind you, I think Sarah *wants* to be fair. It's just that she's up against some *very* ingrained bahavior patterns and preconceptions.


Re: What Next? [message #2473] Tue, 28 September 2004 18:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Vicki wrote on Tue, 28 September 2004 12:35


As far as Sarah. . . Valarie possibly represents her worst fears in that she may have made an error in raising her child as male.



I agree with the above sentiment, however, Sarah was not given a decision to make...

From Episode # 97, 16:27 25 Sep


Mom's jaw tightened. "They found a bit of scarring, Eugene, as if someone had done some repair work around the time you were born. No one EVER told either of us ANYTHING about it." I hoped that my friends recognized the danger signs; Mom was about to go off, and it would be best if she didn't, because the one she'd want to hit wasn't even in this state.




Vicki also wrote on Tue, 28 September 2004 12:35


...... Imagine the conflict of knowing that her child was not what she was told and knowing that she was partially responsible....Bill is more accepting and open than Sarah as his reaction to Valarie was positive. He observed that Valarie was just like her mother and sister naturally without effort. That along with the natural physical changes definately has Bill seeing Eugene as Valarie. If I remember correctly Bill did call Valarie by name in one chapter. Getting Sarah to acknowledge the truth and reality will be a job in itself.



If Sarah feels any guilt, it is one of personal perceived neglect or omission in not knowing to pursue finding out about the intersex problem early on to protect and help her child. Similar, but not as severe as guilt of mothers of infants that died in their cribs (sudden infant death syndrome). The wondering if they could have done something...

That's why I feel Ellen threw elements of fate (RPG dice) into this story. Smile

As for Bill, we don't know his feelings yet. Not sure if Ellen wants to expound on that. We do know Bill is allowing Tuck to work it out a bit, especially after his "dancing with death in the rain" incident during the breakup with Debbie. What Bill appears to have been doing when cornering/interrogating some of Tuck's friends, is trying to understand the perimeter of exposure Tuck had created for himself prior to the attack. Bill is now faced with somwhow constructing an environment for Tuck which will include Val in the future. This will be difficult since know one, even Mike, will volunteer details to Bill.
Re: What Next? [message #2474] Tue, 28 September 2004 20:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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lurker wrote on Tue, 28 September 2004 15:24

As for Bill, we don't know his feelings yet. Not sure if Ellen wants to expound on that. We do know Bill is allowing Tuck to work it out a bit, especially after his "dancing with death in the rain" incident during the breakup with Debbie. What Bill appears to have been doing when cornering/interrogating some of Tuck's friends, is trying to understand the perimeter of exposure Tuck had created for himself prior to the attack. Bill is now faced with somwhow constructing an environment for Tuck which will include Val in the future. This will be difficult since know one, even Mike, will volunteer details to Bill.


Well, he *could* try asking Tuck. But first he has to get Tuck to believe that not only is he trying to help, but that he AND SARAH will *listen* to Tuck.

Sarah is really, *really* bad about that. Sad

BTW, even if tuck recovers from the attack without extra complications, and ignoring the situation with school, that agreement he made at the last session is going to be messing things up a bit.

On the other hand, I ssuddenly recalled something and upon checking, got a surprise.

Tuck101

On the other hand, I'd had to sign another contract in blood, which is why I'd gotten the couch and Mom and Dad were in chairs. This one was a reiteration of an earlier, family-only deal, about keeping a record of some kind about where you were going, and sort of who you were with. In case something like Susan happened again, or several things I'd experienced, it was good to give people a clue as to where and when you were so they could come get you or send the cops or an ambulance or indirect fire or something.


At first I'd thought it was "tell someone whgere you are going to be and who you are going to be with" which for a teenager. much less with one whose life is as "complicated" as Tuck's is going to drive the kid into a rubber room in short order.

I was about to suggest a modification of the idea, when something prompted me to check the actual wording. And damned if it wasn't what I'd thouight of, but more flexible.

Now, if I was Tuck, I'd be "keeping a record" in a way that would let me know if it'd been accessed. And insisting on the ability to destroy (or at least secure) said records after I got back. (I allow that for true paranoids like the Tuckers, hasving a record of where Tuck *has* been may be desirable to help determine what precipitated a later attempt)

Hopefully, Shiela will be on Tuck's side about this.

And after the attack, even Tuck will have to admit that a record is a *real* good idea.

The following speculations all ignore the likelihood of *major* changes in Tuck's life after he gets out of the hospital.

There are going to be some unfortunate incidents sooner or latter though. A reasonably valid reason for accessing the record and finding that Val is at a sleepover will result in quite an explosion. Thouigh I'd hope that Tuck would be able to steel himself to actually *tell* his parfents that was where he was going. They know he's been to them in the past...

When he gets ungrounded, I can see arguments for him getting a cell phone to replace the pager. You can't call 911 on a pager.
And I vaugely recall some cell phones even back then that have a "panic button".

Getting into the realm of the changes after Tuck recovers, I rather suspect that there's no percentage in hiding Val any more.

School is going to be a snake pit regardless. Unless they can get some major attitude changes on the part of a fair sized chunk of the students (and likely, some of the teachers).

If Val *could* hide the fact that she was Eugene, that'd be a temporary solution. But there have been a few too many instances of Val thinking she recognized a voice, along with that girl in the nurse's office that Tuck thought he recogniozed from somewhere.

My money is on Val's cover being blown. Maybe not right now, but real soon.

After the attack, attending school as Val with "everyone" knowing that Val "used to be" Tuck isn't apt to be appreciably more dangerous than attending as Tuck. And while it'll just make the real bigots feel more justified, they may be hesitant to do anything after Dobson and the cops get thru with the perps of the attack.

The majority of the kids don't know Tuck from Adam. They may get curious, or think Val is weird, but that isn't any worse than before.

And some will be sympathetic, either because of the attack or because Val is more "likable" (for whatever reason) than Tuck.

Not that anybody is apt to be thinking in those terms.

I begin to see why Ellen has told us not to expect a "happy ending".

The best outcome I can see is that things at school get shaken up enough to make things more tolerable for the rest of the "different" kids. And Tuck/Val survives.

But I can't see any likely outcomes that have Tuck at the school (as Tucxk or as Val) and not still getting some level of shit, and having to watch his back every minute.

Any outcome that has him home schooled, transferred to Red Bluff, doing early admission to college, etc means he's going to have to give up a lot of his support system. Namely, his friends, lots less time with them.

Homeschooling or the like keeps the friends (though he loses time with them at school), but leaves him with being local to a lot of folks who will want to hurt him.

Low "risk of bodily harm" solutions lose him friends due to distance. Ones that keep his friends around are much highedr risk.

And other than going to Red Bluff, the "move away" solutions also lose him Travis. And Red Bluff is apt to not be isolated *enough*.

Re: What Next? [message #2475] Wed, 29 September 2004 05:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Brooke wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 01:14

After the attack, attending school as Val with "everyone" knowing that Val "used to be" Tuck isn't apt to be appreciably more dangerous than attending as Tuck...


etc...

That's pretty much in line with what I thought. My alternate post-seasons Valerie's backstory has her transitioning about "now". She's uncomfortable talking about it but when she does she doesn't claim it's easy or safe at school, only that it's survivable and not actually worse than before. And she does get called names. Just different names. :} She still never went anywhere alone of course - and in fact was so well protected that hate attacks deflected to her friends - George was hospitalised from one...

Other reasons it may actually be an improvement, besides having more of a knack for popularity as Valerie (and we can speculate about why that should be separately), include that it focuses people's attention on the fact that this is a person who's going to be at risk of hatecrime attacks, whereas "geek" falls below that radar. "People" in this case meaning friends and staff and parentals. Tuck's tried the low-profile thing and it doesn't work, but there may be some protection in being high-visibility: If you're going to be out, be properly OUT and make it something people can't make you feel ashamed of, and bring the bigotry out into the open so it can be seen for what it is. Most people are indifferent or curious (and may be unintentionally hurtful); you're just local colour. Real Haters are really not that common.

But I do think that Valerie would veto - or at least strongly protest - against moving out of the area and losing all her friends / support.


Rachel
Re: What Next? [message #2476] Wed, 29 September 2004 07:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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rachel.greenham wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 02:32

Brooke wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 01:14

After the attack, attending school as Val with "everyone" knowing that Val "used to be" Tuck isn't apt to be appreciably more dangerous than attending as Tuck...


etc...

That's pretty much in line with what I thought. My alternate post-seasons Valerie's backstory has her transitioning about "now". She's uncomfortable talking about it but when she does she doesn't claim it's easy or safe at school, only that it's survivable and not actually worse than before. And she does get called names. Just different names. :} She still never went anywhere alone of course - and in fact was so well protected that hate attacks deflected to her friends - George was hospitalised from one...

Other reasons it may actually be an improvement, besides having more of a knack for popularity as Valerie (and we can speculate about why that should be separately), include that it focuses people's attention on the fact that this is a person who's going to be at risk of hatecrime attacks, whereas "geek" falls below that radar. "People" in this case meaning friends and staff and parentals. Tuck's tried the low-profile thing and it doesn't work, but there may be some protection in being high-visibility: If you're going to be out, be properly OUT and make it something people can't make you feel ashamed of, and bring the bigotry out into the open so it can be seen for what it is. Most people are indifferent or curious (and may be unintentionally hurtful); you're just local colour. Real Haters are really not that common.

But I do think that Valerie would veto - or at least strongly protest - against moving out of the area and losing all her friends / support.



You've said much of what I was trying to say on that subject but done a *much* better job of it.

I know *I* have been pleasantly surprised at the reactions I've gotten when I've outed myself to friends (it's *much* easier than trying to remember which friends know what, a fact that I hope Tuck will realize soon Smile.

And I've gotten outed to a few neighbors. Nobody has said anything about it, except for one guy that I hadn't even realized had seen me as Brooke. He asked me about a major local Drag Queen event and I had to say I didn't know anything about it.

I'm not ready to show up at the monthly tenant get together as Brooke yet, though. There's going about your business, and there's rubbing peoople's faces in it. Since I don't plan on giving up my male side anytime soon (if ever)that makes better sense.

Tuck's situation is rather different.

BTW, he might *want* to veto any relocation based solutions. But it's unclear whether his parents would let him have a veto. I'd *hope* they are brighter than that. But it's not certain that they are.
Re: What Next? [message #2477] Wed, 29 September 2004 08:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Brooke wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 12:34

Tuck's situation is rather different.


Well, Tuck has to figure out what he needs to do yet as well. FWIW I hedged my bets on that: Her decision to transition was practical: She discovered (after perforce living full-time as Valerie for a few months) that "Valerie" could encompass her entire range of self-expression better than "Eugene" could. "Eugene" is effeminate and that carries obvious social penalties, and to eliminate that effeminacy would be very psychologically damaging, but "Valerie" could get tomboyish and geeky without setting off the same kind of triggers in others. The female role therefore offers more freedom.

So she changed her social and legal sex but I didn't actually come down on any side about her internal sense of gender. This leaves some unfinished business.

Quote:

BTW, he might *want* to veto any relocation based solutions. But it's unclear whether his parents would let him have a veto. I'd *hope* they are brighter than that. But it's not certain that they are.



Permanently removing Tuck from Mike would be Bad. I think they know this. They'd pretty soon find out.


Rachel
Re: What Next? [message #2478] Wed, 29 September 2004 09:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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rachel.greenham wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 05:42

Brooke wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 12:34

Tuck's situation is rather different.


Well, Tuck has to figure out what he needs to do yet as well.


And I don't? Smile

Seriously, if I thought I could pull it off, I might go for living full time. But that ain't happening soon. And it's a *lot* hard to deal with legally if you aren't a TS.

And being a guy has its points occasionally. Very occasionally.

Just wish I'd gotten the "push" to try it about 20 years back. Or even earlier. Sad

rachel.greenham wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 05:42

FWIW I hedged my bets on that: Her decision to transition was practical: She discovered (after perforce living full-time as Valerie for a few months) that "Valerie" could encompass her entire range of self-expression better than "Eugene" could. "Eugene" is effeminate and that carries obvious social penalties, and to eliminate that effeminacy would be very psychologically damaging, but "Valerie" could get tomboyish and geeky without setting off the same kind of triggers in others. The female role therefore offers more freedom.


Believe me, I know. One of the reasons I wish I'd gotten "pushed" into it earlier (and it was a push, tell you about it somewhere more appropriate if you are interested) is that I am having to *unlearn* a lot of stuff I picked up overr the years to "fit in" better.

Tuck doesn't have that problem to anyt great extent.

rachel.greenham wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 05:42

So she changed her social and legal sex but I didn't actually come down on any side about her internal sense of gender. This leaves some unfinished business.


Just a little. I could make a list. Smile

rachel.greenham wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 05:42

Quote:

BTW, he might *want* to veto any relocation based solutions. But it's unclear whether his parents would let him have a veto. I'd *hope* they are brighter than that. But it's not certain that they are.



Permanently removing Tuck from Mike would be Bad. I think they know this. They'd pretty soon find out.


Hmm. Sounds interesting. In the same way an incipient train wreck is.
Re: What Next? [message #2479] Wed, 29 September 2004 10:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Brooke wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 14:54

And being a guy has its points occasionally. Very occasionally.


What, like getting the benefit of the doubt on questions of competence? As in, the fact that before I transitioned I got every job I interviewed for (if I still wanted it at the end of the interview) and after I transitioned I was immediately unemployed for nine months?

That doesn't make you a man, it just makes you a feminist. Smile

Brooke wrote

rachel.greenham wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 05:42

So she changed her social and legal sex but I didn't actually come down on any side about her internal sense of gender. This leaves some unfinished business.


Just a little. I could make a list. Smile


I dunno actually, thinking about it... is it necessary, meaningful, or even desirable to have a clear defined idea about what your gender is as long as you've found a lifestyle/role that works for you?

I mean, I'm not always sure on this either. I know that the female social role fits me better but I don't claim that really proves anything.

Brooke wrote

rachel.greenham wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 05:42

Permanently removing Tuck from Mike would be Bad. I think they know this. They'd pretty soon find out.


Hmm. Sounds interesting. In the same way an incipient train wreck is.



Hmm. I may be getting into a habit of creating train wrecks. Twisted Evil


Rachel
Re: What Next? [message #2480] Wed, 29 September 2004 18:39 Go to previous message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Registered: August 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Senior Member
rachel.greenham wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 07:56

Brooke wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 14:54

And being a guy has its points occasionally. Very occasionally.


What, like getting the benefit of the doubt on questions of competence? As in, the fact that before I transitioned I got every job I interviewed for (if I still wanted it at the end of the interview) and after I transitioned I was immediately unemployed for nine months?

That doesn't make you a man, it just makes you a feminist. Smile


You were very lucky. I've *never* gotten a job via an interview. Alweays via knowing someone or thru a training program. Which has me *really* nervous about the future.

Also, I recall (back in the 70s) being told by someone at the state employment office that they wouldn't send me out on a job lead I'd found in their listings because I was a guy. Well, it wasn't *that* blatant, but "You wouldn't fit in with the other workers, you really wouldn't like it" etc.

rachel.greenham wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 07:56

Brooke wrote

rachel.greenham wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 05:42

So she changed her social and legal sex but I didn't actually come down on any side about her internal sense of gender. This leaves some unfinished business.


Just a little. I could make a list. Smile


I dunno actually, thinking about it... is it necessary, meaningful, or even desirable to have a clear defined idea about what your gender is as long as you've found a lifestyle/role that works for you?

I mean, I'm not always sure on this either. I know that the female social role fits me better but I don't claim that really proves anything.


Well, I meant that your *story* leaves a lot of "unfinished business".

rachel.greenham wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 07:56

Hmm. I may be getting into a habit of creating train wrecks. Twisted Evil


Gee, no kidding?

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