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Chapter 105 is here [message #2279] Sat, 18 September 2004 21:51 Go to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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It's like watching the middle of a chess game. I see pieces moving all over the place. I know endgame is coming. Lots of stuff is happening but nothing is falling into place quite yet.

If Tuck's attackers live through this, they have Dobson to thank for getting the police involved. Not that they are likely to appreciate the situation.

The episode title is once again from Pink Floyd's "The Wall"; it's the first half (along with "Another Brick in the Wall, Part Two") of what generally gets played on the radio as simply "Another Brick in the Wall."

The end of chapter quote comes from Spider Robinson's "Lady Slings the Booze". Fun book.

I know I'm just hitting trivialities for the most part here. I just don't have that much to say about this chapter in isolation. It's good, as usual. It's interesting. But, more so than usual recently, it's one chapter in a long story. And I don't have much to add that wasn't covered in the discussions after 103 and 104.

I'm sure somebody will catch bits that will flare up into fascinating discussions over the next few days. But for now, I don't have much to say beyond "Thank You, Ellen."
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2282] Sun, 19 September 2004 02:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Gee, this is quiet for the period right after a new chapter is posted. I guess everybody else is having the problem I had, finding something to really say about this episode.

I put together a list of bits I found interesting upon re-reading the story, as I was going along. Nothing major, but what the heck:

I find it interesting that Bill thinks Sarah is far better at reading people. Bill is definitly better at reading Tuck, as we've seen on several ocassions and particularly recently.

We have one of the cheerleaders- Jody- actually starting to act like a human being, perhaps. Be interesting to see if this goes anywhere.

In case anybody still had any doubt, Jacket=gun is confirmed.

Sarah thinks that cops usually aren't too pleased to see her, either. I know there just has to be a fascinating story behind that which I really can't give a crap about until we know Tuck's going to be OK.

Anybody have any doubt that the Tuckers and Da Boys are fully ready to use lethal force? Or that only the fact that the cops have already been called in is likely to stop them? (I'm somewhat suprised that they actually thought they could keep the cops out of the picture- what did they expect on something bad enough to warrent a traumaflight?)

What exactly does Bill feel the need to shred? The Laniers moving in behind the scenes, perhaps?

Planing to disrupt the dance. One of the only smiles in this episode, even if it's a nasty one.

Bill seems to have nighmares too, if he's not careful.

So, what new medical revelation is hiding the reference to a chart?

Bill trusts Mike to be doing something worthwhile, even if Bill doesn't know what. Nice to see.

CAT scan. No results yet. Yipes.

Debbie's comment about Tuck not stealing clothes was another welcome smile. Technically true, but...

The Parkers are going to want more information, and soon.

The time frame seems slightly off at some points, especially changing the tires on Mike's car.

Any guesses where the G and T stuff is leading? Tuck, Debbie, and Kim are all in that category, Mike almost certainly is as well even if he's not specifically mentioned, and I would give about even odds on any other given member of the Pack & Da Boyz being in that group as well.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2283] Sun, 19 September 2004 02:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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OtherEric wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:46

I put together a list of bits I found interesting upon re-reading the story, as I was going along. Nothing major, but what the heck:

I find it interesting that Bill thinks Sarah is far better at reading people. Bill is definitly better at reading Tuck, as we've seen on several ocassions and particularly recently.


Sarah is probably too biased there. She doesn't think to look at Tuck the way she would at a stranger.

OtherEric wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:46

So, what new medical revelation is hiding the reference to a chart?


I'm wondering who is making that comment. There's no indication if it's Dana or someone else.

OtherEric wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:46

CAT scan. No results yet. Yipes.


They haven't *done* the scan yet. Tuck isn't an emergency now.

OtherEric wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:46


The Parkers are going to want more information, and soon.


Doesn't mean they'll get it. And hopefully, they'll accept that the family is too worried for a while longer.

But I wonder when Travis is going to find out. And what will happen when he does.

OtherEric wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:46

The time frame seems slightly off at some points, especially changing the tires on Mike's car.


No. The first bit is them taking off the old tires. The second is putting on the new ones.

BTW, given experiences of some friends recently, Mike will have a spare tire. Because the tire companies claim insurance won't let them sell partial sets. So he'll have 4 new tires and the unslashed tire as a spare.

OtherEric wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:46

Any guesses where the G and T stuff is leading? Tuck, Debbie, and Kim are all in that category, Mike almost certainly is as well even if he's not specifically mentioned, and I would give about even odds on any other given member of the Pack & Da Boyz being in that group as well.


See my thread about that in Future Tuck. I stuck it there since it seems to deserve a thread of its own.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2284] Sun, 19 September 2004 03:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Brooke wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:57


OtherEric wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:46

So, what new medical revelation is hiding the reference to a chart?


I'm wondering who is making that comment. There's no indication if it's Dana or someone else.

I don't think it's Dana. Her reaction wouldn't be "This can't be right", it would be "Oh great, something else" or something along those lines. Dana knows Tuck's situation is messed up to the point were she wouldn't assume anything was incorrect. Unless it was something non-medical, like Debbie claiming to be married to Tuck. Which wouldn't warrent a stray comment like that.

Brooke wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:57

OtherEric wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:46

CAT scan. No results yet. Yipes.

They haven't *done* the scan yet. Tuck isn't an emergency now.

Needing the scan and us not knowing the results is still a Yipes, in my mind. Tuck and medical care don't get along well Smile

Brooke wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:57


But I wonder when Travis is going to find out. And what will happen when he does.


No mention of Travis is worrisome. I don't think anybody has thought of him yet, and he's not going to be happy when he re-enters the picture.

Brooke wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:57


OtherEric wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:46

The time frame seems slightly off at some points, especially changing the tires on Mike's car.


No. The first bit is them taking off the old tires. The second is putting on the new ones.


But Bill tells Mike to get permission for them to do the work in the parking lot AFTER we've already seen them start. Not that they wouldn't try and cover themselves after the fact, but I would have expected Bill to make it clear that was what they were doing.

Final thought for the night: even knowing where the title comes from, it has to be one of the most sickly ironic comments I've seen in a very long time. (The sickness is in the schools, not in Ellen's choice of title.)
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2285] Sun, 19 September 2004 03:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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OtherEric wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 00:15

Brooke wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:57


OtherEric wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:46

The time frame seems slightly off at some points, especially changing the tires on Mike's car.


No. The first bit is them taking off the old tires. The second is putting on the new ones.


But Bill tells Mike to get permission for them to do the work in the parking lot AFTER we've already seen them start. Not that they wouldn't try and cover themselves after the fact, but I would have expected Bill to make it clear that was what they were doing.


Yeah, Bill tells Mike to getr permission to go out to the lot *during classess*. IE skip a class to finish fixing the car.

At least, that's how I read it.

And Dobson is probably more than willing, under the circumstances.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2286] Sun, 19 September 2004 03:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tux.  is currently offline Tux.
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Quote:

It's like watching the middle of a chess game.

Yeah, some of the pieces I noticed moving:

  • This one is really from 104, but Debbie got moved into position with her decision to help Mike get to the hospital and what followed.
  • Debbie and also Kim seem to have an idea about Tuck's G-'n-T status (and maybe their own), this is likely going to mean something soon. No idea what yet.
  • Jody is obviously 'not ok' with what happened, even though she's one of the ones that hit Tucker (tuck104, line 392), which she now feels guilty about and even denies having done (tuck105, 251). I think she may know interesting facts, which at some point she may share with the police or the Tucker camp.
  • Phone taps that should yield intel some time soon (if 'they' didn't get smart all of a sudden and decided not to talk about this on the phone; they may, considering that now the police is involved, suspects may be tapped)

Some random bits (well, just two):

  • Keith is the brother of a cheerleader that got interviewed by the police. This cheerleader could be Jody, but that's not certain.
  • This is the first time the name Keith appear in the story.

Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2287] Sun, 19 September 2004 03:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tux.  is currently offline Tux.
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Quote:

What exactly does Bill feel the need to shred? The Laniers moving in behind the scenes, perhaps?

Probably standard operating procedure or 'operational security', don't leave anything lying around that may be incriminating somehow. For example, if this ended up on the teletype (tuck104, 792-795):

Quote:


FLASH TOALL FLASH X DANGER X EUGENE ATTACKED AT SCHOOL X IN SURGERY
X EXPECTED TO LIVE X PERPS UNKNOWN RPT UNKNOWN X FOUR GUARDING X
HOUSE LOCKDOWN X TAKE SECURITY PRECAUTIONS X WEAPONS LOCKED RPT
LOCKED X SIX EN ROUTE X DANGER WARNING X TSIXT END



The 'weapons locked' part may be something they don't want to have to explain to the cops Wink

Quote:


In case anybody still had any doubt, Jacket=gun is confirmed.


I thought that meant 'bullet proof vest'?
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2289] Sun, 19 September 2004 04:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BubbleEntity  is currently offline BubbleEntity
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[quote title=Tux. wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 19:47]
Quote:



Quote:


In case anybody still had any doubt, Jacket=gun is confirmed.


I thought that meant 'bullet proof vest'?


it most proberbly means both, a bullet proof vest and a holster slung under clothes.....
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2290] Sun, 19 September 2004 04:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michelle  is currently offline Michelle
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Tux. wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 00:47


Quote:


In case anybody still had any doubt, Jacket=gun is confirmed.


I thought that meant 'bullet proof vest'?


I do believe the reference "I'm cold, put on a jacket" means they should arm themselves. From 105 we know Susan has an semi-auto hand gun under her jacket and can assume that everyone who was told to "put on a jacket" is carrying one as well.

Later when they find out the cops have been called, Mike is told, "You might want to change clothes if they get here; it might get a little warm for that outfit.", meaning he should not be carrying a concealed weapon as a minor when/if the cops show up. I suppose the jackets themselves could be bulletproof, but something like that is usually very bulky and noticable.

Michelle


Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2291] Sun, 19 September 2004 04:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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First off I'd like to say "Thank You, Ellen" as well before starting in on some continuity quibbles I noticed.

Tuck was grounded and had his keys removed and driving privileges suspended for the duration of his grounding in 101 and the parentals are taking care of all transportation between home, school and the Parkers. Given that, why did Mike give Julie the keys to Tucks car for Kathy to drive it home from school?

Dobson made an announcement during homeroom canceling the PEP rally. Why didn't he make mention of the attack and the police involvement? I highly suspected he would extend homeroom or call an emergency morning assembly to state that attacks like what happned the day before will not be tollerated. That anyone, students, facalty, or other staff, that in anyway engages in such behavior will face the maximum punishment available. Whether it be another student attacking someone or a teacher that looks the other way at what they might have, before this incident, perceived as "teens just being teens." Then again, maybe that's in the works for Monday morning?

This isn't a continuity quibble, but a quibble non the less. Why did their homeroom teacher smirk when Mike was called to the office first thing in the morning? Wouldn't Dobson have informed all the teachers and staff as to what happened to Tuck and explained Mike's and the others involvement? If he did, and she still smirked, it just gives unequivical proof that she is one stone cold-hearted bitch and definately part of the problem at the school. Hell, given what she did in this episode, I suspect she was one of Nickersons strongest supporters outside of the coaching staff.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2292] Sun, 19 September 2004 05:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tux.  is currently offline Tux.
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@ BubbleEntity & Michelle: ah, thanks, so OtherEric's
Quote:

Jacket=gun

stands, and the part about 'bullet proof' is maybe something I just asumed Rolling Eyes
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2294] Sun, 19 September 2004 06:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherizad  is currently offline Sherizad
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Ok... so, chapter 105 was here, finally... Mmm... bad timing for us, european bunch, kinda at 2 am or 3 am, on Sunday. Anyway, no #@~@#@# way I'm complaining.

IMHO chapter 105 seems to be a clifhanger itself. For starter: Tuck's medical condition seems to be stable, but THERE IS something else, just not obvius to everyone, related with his brain, and I DON'T think is some kind of "Drain Bramage". Going on, Mike and rest of guys are loose on revenge, and quoting Cels Pinyols, they are out there "with a vengance". Most interesting even... Debbie, that is, miss manipulator herself, is having a weird idea relating them being top students, and I have a slight idea which that could be... And could possibly work, if Dobson wasn't already on their side, I mean. What's funny about that is that it could backfire just for that motive.

About police and that crap... Well... I DON'T think police's gonna stop them. After all, they can do something only about those guys and gals that beat the crap outta Tuck, but not on those beating it out on Mike, Kelly, James, etc. So, some mayor, and I mean MAYOR plot (as in telling them with their actions "I'm Inyigo Montoya, yo killed my father, prepare to die") gonna be necesary, just for the sake of security.

Another note on police: It's a well known fact Bill has weapons around the house, as well as some hacker evidence. NO WAY they want them scooping around, if you know what I mean. Hell I only have some melee weapons myself, and I'd hate police using their noses around my house, much more when they have fire weapons, and they just DO.

So... well... Maybe we were expecting for more, but, this was not a casual chapter, nor stalling. This was all necesary to set the mood for chapter 106, and what's gonna happen then. I mean... we needed to calm ourselves, or we would be gutting Ellen alive for not making Tuck and theirs actually hunt and kill on sight everyone on assault team. Well... and one month is not that long, so... think we will survive, barely Razz
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2296] Sun, 19 September 2004 07:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tux.  is currently offline Tux.
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Sherizad wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 03:40

Ok... so, chapter 105 was here, finally... Mmm... bad timing for us, european bunch, kinda at 2 am or 3 am,

*grins* Yup, woke up (in Europe) about 2:50 CET, because I had to, you know, go somewhere.
So I didn't want to go back to bed without checking, and there it was (the story, not my bed) Smile

And most of the withdrawal symptoms have subsided now. http://ateros.com/tuckerspawn/images/message_icons/icon10.gif

Quote:

chapter 105 seems to be a clifhanger itself

Yeah, it's more like the story's been clawing it's way along the edge of the cliff. Still hanging, just somewhere else, trying to find a better position to regain sure footage. Uh... or something Razz
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2298] Sun, 19 September 2004 07:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Sherizad wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 11:40

Ok... so, chapter 105 was here, finally... Mmm... bad timing for us, european bunch, kinda at 2 am or 3 am, on Sunday. Anyway, no #@~@#@# way I'm complaining.


Yah, I got to bed after three too.

Quote:

This was all necesary to set the mood for chapter 106, and what's gonna happen then. I mean... we needed to calm ourselves, or we would be gutting Ellen alive for not making Tuck and theirs actually hunt and kill on sight everyone on assault team. Well... and one month is not that long, so... think we will survive, barely Razz


Am I alone in hoping the police do get them and deal appropriately?

I just feel really uncomfortable with the story turning into a the kind of revenge-fest some people seem to be baying for.

Yeah, I know we all fantasised about our school tormentors getting taken out in spectacular fashion. But OTOH I don't read Tuck for fantasy wish-fulfillment. That would leave a nasty taste.

And frankly I'm more interested in seeing how Tuck's going to come back from this and find the courage to find his own path and not retreat into the thousand little deaths of perceived safety. (Trusting he does wake up...)

And where Sarah goes after this. She's just received a sound kick in the priorities, after all.

I'm hoping people don't see the long recovery period as an anticlimax after all this current drama. There's a lot of big story in the efforts of the protagonists to move on from this. So no more talk of endgames please?

I'm hopeful. But as Samwise Gamgee said, we're now in the very worst parts of the story. The parts that make any eventual positive outcome mean more to us than if it just dropped from the tree.

***

Just another thought: In seeking "authenticity" and dismissing some people's ideas for a quick happy ending as "Oh, Ellen wouldn't short-change us like that" might some of us be in danger of expecting things to be too bad; ever demanding more disaster and pain on this poor kid just because we find it so cathartic?

I tend to feel that given Tuck's family, fiercely loyal friends, and even a sympathetic school principal, that assuming he does survive and recover from this, there's a limit to how bad things are going to be allowed to get again in terms of external threats.

After all, I keep reading on these forums and Ellen's guestbook of people saying words to the effect of "Nothing this bad ever happened to me at school but this is all bringing back so much..."

I just want to call attention to the first part of that.

[Updated on: Sun, 19 September 2004 07:59]


Rachel
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2299] Sun, 19 September 2004 09:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherizad  is currently offline Sherizad
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No, you're not the only one HOPING the police will deal appropiately, but, confront it, Da Boyz are already playing Mr.Bond. They've been picked for long enough already, and they are REALLE pi... Upset.. about it. Also, they distrust police and law-enforcement. So it would be not natural for them not to try anything. Anyway, I don't really think they are going on rampage. That's not their style. Maybe property damage, vandalism, some velated treats and secret warnings. Just making their lives REAL miserable... Payback, as oposed to revenge, if you know what I mean.

About your thoughts:

Well. I think Tuck's saga has already hit its central plot. I'm starting to see some kind of even simetry (in a mathematical way). I'm not saying Tuck's gonna finish soon, just that maybe in 30 chapters we'll get to a point where "live just go on"... ok, make that 50 or so.

My reasons: A person can only cope with a maximum of strain, and IMHO Tuck has already hit that max, this assault being the angle stone, so, once you hit a stone like this, you have only two options: Suicide or moving on.

No, hell, think about it. While it's true that he has a lot of faithful friends, they are JUST now on the verge of a GREAT rupture, due to Bill's Sherlock-like bussines. He just got a serious discussion with Kim and Jill, and he may think he has noone with him when he comes back from coma... So it's not a crazy idea, right?

Anyway, either way... suicide or saying "What the hell, I need to keep living", thing gonna change, since this is no minor fight... He got almost killed... so, something has to be done about that, right? Also, They (his parents and family) may not be wanting to keep this shit happening on him... who would? Noone can stand this abuse twice, so, IMHO, things gonna change real soon, and we'll have some readings on Tucks getting back into a "normal life", at least for a while.


Just another wild thought: How do you think this is gonna affect his Valerie/Eugine internal fight? I've building up some theories, but can't come with nothing absolute, yet.

I mean... he ONLY get hurt when he's on "male-emulation mode". So don't you think this could be just another nail in that coffin? It would be, for me, at least.....

On the other hand, he's not that fond of Valerie. Seriously, he just seem to be riding along, and not fighting it, but he's not proud... It's just... well, it has some advantages. So, maybe he'll see this as an "if they ever guess me on Val, I'm gonna die.... painfully", and he'll be afraid to hell to be Val again.

So, what do you think?
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2300] Sun, 19 September 2004 11:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Points:

1- Maltor may have caught a rather big slip on Ellen's part, concerning Tuck's car. From the 06:49 conversation, it appears that Bill has driven Tuck to the school.

2- The guns: although the Tuckers-plus-Mike could get in trouble for the concealed guns thing (especially guns in the hands of minors, like Mike and Brian -- I think Susan is considered an Adult), I DON'T thing that Bill's arsenal in the basement is going to be much of a problem. For one thing, they are probably licensed (he has no worries about taking the guns to the range now and then). And Bill is keen on gun safety; he probably has a gun safe (which all Tuckers know the combo of by heart, but the police doesn't know that). For another, this "incident" didn't involve guns OR the house, it was a school violence episode. And thirdly, at this point there is no reason for the police to search the Tucker household. Bill told Mike to stow the gun because he is trying NOT to give the police reasons to investigate his house.

3- The teletype: same reasoning applies. Bill wouldn't like to leave it lying around at a time when he might have unexpected visits from police to interview the Tuckers. Detectives are supposed to be curious; if one of them happened to glance at that transcript, even if he didn't see the "weaposn locked" passage, the military-style language by itself might be enough to raise his interest about what exactly is happening in this house. Bill probably was going a bit overboard with the shredding & flushing thing, but then he is a bit paranoid.

4- Brian may have goofed, in a way. By mentioning the dangers of incriminating evidence, he may have reminded the jocks (through Darren) of disposing of it. If the idea gets around quick enough, Tuck's notebook might never be seen again...

5- Mike & co. might find out pretty soon who was responsible for the first attack, but whether they will able to do anything about it is another matter. With the police sniffing around, their usual methods are too dangerous; and much of the evidence they collect couldn't be passed to the police. So, what they COULD do is to use their illegal evidence to either direct their efforts to obtain legal evidence, or to give "hints" to the police ("rumors heard at school"). Best thing of all would be the laptop, of course... if Kyle-or-whoever-got-the-laptop ever uses it, Bill would have a nice piece of (legal) evidence to give the police.


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2301] Sun, 19 September 2004 12:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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rachel.greenham wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 04:49


Am I alone in hoping the police do get them and deal appropriately?
I just feel really uncomfortable with the story turning into a the kind of revenge-fest some people seem to be baying for.
Yeah, I know we all fantasised about our school tormentors getting taken out in spectacular fashion. But OTOH I don't read Tuck for fantasy wish-fulfillment. That would leave a nasty taste.

I actually fall on the side that would prefer it not to end in more mayhem, my frequent comments aside. I just feel that, given what we've seen of the characters over the past 100+ episodes, that taking out the threat to Tuck, permanantly, is what the characters would realisticly like to do at this point. I think a lot of the people posting here have been missing or avoiding that. If you disagree with that assessment, I would love to hear why- and I would be happy to go dig up reasons why I think it's an accurate one. It might take me a few days, though. I also think we've seen enough to think the cast has a reasonable chance of getting away with it- or would have if Dobson hadn't called the cops. And I can't imagine Ellen showing it happening in wish-fulfuillment style. I would think it would be ugly, unpleasant, and- at least from the characters perspective- necessary. It would probably cost Tuck several of Tuck's friends, for that matter, even if they were all willing to keep quiet.

rachel.greenham wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 04:49

So no more talk of endgames please?

I may still use that metaphor, sorry. But I think it very unlikely that this particular game is the last game of the match, if that helps. Smile
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2302] Sun, 19 September 2004 12:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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maltor wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 01:53

Tuck was grounded and had his keys removed and driving privileges suspended for the duration of his grounding in 101 and the parentals are taking care of all transportation between home, school and the Parkers. Given that, why did Mike give Julie the keys to Tucks car for Kathy to drive it home from school?

As others have said, good catch.
maltor wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 01:53


Dobson made an announcement during homeroom canceling the PEP rally. Why didn't he make mention of the attack and the police involvement?

I'm not sure he didn't. We see that scene from Kim & Jill's perspective, and they wouldn't view that as new information. We know from Jody's comment later that he didn't say much about Tuck's current condition, but much detail would have been inappropriate, and he didn't have any new information anyway.
maltor wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 01:53

This isn't a continuity quibble, but a quibble non the less. Why did their homeroom teacher smirk when Mike was called to the office first thing in the morning?

That scene is from Mike's perspective as much as anyone's. I almost doubt Mike is capable of seeing her doing anything but smirking when sending one of the them to the office. And, even if she has Mike & Tuck filed as "Friends", I somehow doubt she has any real grasp of relationships between people in the class, other than as troublemakers. I also don't have the impression Dobson has given detailed briefings on the situation to the entire staff.
I don't doubt that she is somebody I would find thoroughly unpleasant to spend much time with. But I think you're reading a bit much into a very short sentance. Just my opinion, though.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2303] Sun, 19 September 2004 13:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Michelle wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 01:42

I do believe the reference "I'm cold, put on a jacket" means they should arm themselves. From 105 we know Susan has an semi-auto hand gun under her jacket and can assume that everyone who was told to "put on a jacket" is carrying one as well.


"I'm cold, put on a jacket." is driving me *nuts*. I know I've seen that exact code phrase (or one damn close) somewhere before. But the only one of the *many* possibilities that I can "easily" check is Tom Clancy. And I don't feel like reading all those books aggain just now.

Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2304] Sun, 19 September 2004 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Sherizad wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 03:40

Another note on police: It's a well known fact Bill has weapons around the house, as well as some hacker evidence. NO WAY they want them scooping around, if you know what I mean. Hell I only have some melee weapons myself, and I'd hate police using their noses around my house, much more when they have fire weapons, and they just DO.



Short of calling in the "computer crimes squad" (if they have one) I doubt that there's any "hacker evidence" they could *find*.

As for the guns, so what? They're *legal*.

No evidence in the story for the presence of full auto weapons, or anything else that requires special permits.

The only illegal weapons related stuff would be carrying a concealed weapon without a permit to do so. And that requires catching them in the act. For that matter, Bill may well have such permits for the adults (in many states everyone in the family could *easily* pass the required tests, but the non-adults couldn't get the permits).

Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2306] Sun, 19 September 2004 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
karen_page  is currently offline karen_page
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maltor wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 09:53

First off I'd like to say "Thank You, Ellen" as well before starting in on some continuity quibbles I noticed.

Tuck was grounded and had his keys removed and driving privileges suspended for the duration of his grounding in 101 and the parentals are taking care of all transportation between home, school and the Parkers. Given that, why did Mike give Julie the keys to Tucks car for Kathy to drive it home from school?



Mmmm. I've been thinking about this one. Mike is treated very much as part of the family. It is quite possible that he has a spare key to tucks car. When I lived with my parents we all had keys to each others cars.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2307] Sun, 19 September 2004 14:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherizad  is currently offline Sherizad
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Mmm... no hacker evidence? Then... what do you call all those recorded CD have been mentioned once and another? TECHNICALLY, that's Hacking, at least, legally. Well.... ONLY legally, but that's where it counts.

About weapons, I keep forgetting it's legal to have them in USA, and I just forget Tuck's happening in USA... you may think that being in english and all that would be a reminder, but, no... so, ok, no ilegal weapons Confused *mumble*(Must remember those things, girl).

Anyway, from what's been told, Tuck's house could be really booby trapped for real, and I bet this bobby trap it's close enough to ilegal to worry enough.
icon10.gif  Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2308] Sun, 19 September 2004 14:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tux.  is currently offline Tux.
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karen_page wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 10:46

maltor wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 09:53

First off I'd like to say "Thank You, Ellen" as well before starting in on some continuity quibbles I noticed.

Tuck was grounded and had his keys removed and driving privileges suspended for the duration of his grounding in 101 and the parentals are taking care of all transportation between home, school and the Parkers. Given that, why did Mike give Julie the keys to Tucks car for Kathy to drive it home from school?



Mmmm. I've been thinking about this one. Mike is treated very much as part of the family. It is quite possible that he has a spare key to tucks car. When I lived with my parents we all had keys to each others cars.


Well, Mike's car is at school too, so it'd be kinda hard for him to have driven two cars that morning, right?
*retracts legs so as to avoid being kicked in the shins*
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2309] Sun, 19 September 2004 14:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Sherizad wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 11:21

Mmm... no hacker evidence? Then... what do you call all those recorded CD have been mentioned once and another? TECHNICALLY, that's Hacking, at least, legally. Well.... ONLY legally, but that's where it counts.


Actually, that's "illegal wiretapping". But they aren't putting them oin CDs unless I missed something. Just stored as audio files on the computer. And from past references, the files are probably encrypted way too securely to be cracked in less than years.

Also, unless they've got a search warrant *specifying* the computers, they can't check them. And getting such a warrant for the *victim* of an assault isn't likely to happen.

So the *only* things the cops can use is what's in plain sight. Since there's a bathroom on the first floor, there's no way they could reasonably get to any other floor without it being rulled an "illegal search" or having a warrant.

Living roiom, maybe dining room, bathroom and maybe kitchen are the only areas they couldf wind up in.

Living room/dining room: probably where the interview takes place, or visible from that location.

Bathroom: if one of them needs to use it (or claims to need it)

Kitchen: if one asks for water or something, and possibly follows the person fetching it (while still talking to them.

Add in a bit of hallway and you've got the omnly areas they are going to see.

Going anywhere else without a warrant will result in evidence that can't be used. Having a warrant and finding stuff related to illegal activities other than those the warrant was issued for aalso results in inadmissible evidence. Thoggh the usual procedure if that happens is to have one officer keep an eye on things while another goes back for a new warrant.

Frankly, if cops showed up with a warrant, Bill could detain them for a bit at the door while calling his lawyer. Whether or not they'd wait for the lawyer would depend on the situation.

But I bet eveything on computers that wasn't encrypted unbreakably would get wiped if that happened. Without any obvious triggering signal being given.

That's how *I* would rig it if I was as paranoid as Tuck's family.

Having encrypted files is legal. So is refusing to hand over the key under many circumstances.

Having "hacking tools" is legal. And Bill and Tuck have an excellent excuse. Bill runs an ISP, Tuck subcontracts for him sometimes. And you have to be able to test your security. Also, most "hacking tools" also have legitimate uses for recovering from screwups by customers.

So, they can't be nailed for the software they've got any more than you can arrest a locksmith for having a set of lock picks.


Sherizad wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 11:21

Anyway, from what's been told, Tuck's house could be really booby trapped for real, and I bet this bobby trap it's close enough to ilegal to worry enough.


It'd require a rather thorough search to find the actual booby trap. The sensors would just be a really good home security system. Which is legal.

The police *can't* justify that level of search to the house without evidence that someone in the house has committed a crime. At a minimum they need enough "suggestive" info to convince a judge to issue the warrant. And if the warrant gets challengerd later, the judge could get in a world of trouble.

So an *official* search isn't going to happen. And any "unofficial" ones are going to consist of looking around in those few rooms.

In the bathroom or kitchen, they *might* be able to justify opening drawers or cabinents by claiming to be looking for something reasonable (glasses to drink from, for example).

But again, the cops have no reason to suspect the Tuckers of *anything*.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2310] Sun, 19 September 2004 15:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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OtherEric wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 17:32

rachel.greenham wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 04:49


Am I alone in hoping the police do get them and deal appropriately?
I just feel really uncomfortable with the story turning into a the kind of revenge-fest some people seem to be baying for.
Yeah, I know we all fantasised about our school tormentors getting taken out in spectacular fashion. But OTOH I don't read Tuck for fantasy wish-fulfillment. That would leave a nasty taste.

I actually fall on the side that would prefer it not to end in more mayhem, my frequent comments aside. I just feel that, given what we've seen of the characters over the past 100+ episodes, that taking out the threat to Tuck, permanantly, is what the characters would realisticly like to do at this point. I think a lot of the people posting here have been missing or avoiding that. If you disagree with that assessment, I would love to hear why- and I would be happy to go dig up reasons why I think it's an accurate one.


No, I don't disagree with that assessment. I still don't want it to go down that way though. Smile

Something about "he who seeks revenge must first dig two graves." Maybe they won't die, but it won't be the same either.

Quote:

It might take me a few days, though. I also think we've seen enough to think the cast has a reasonable chance of getting away with it- or would have if Dobson hadn't called the cops. And I can't imagine Ellen showing it happening in wish-fulfuillment style. I would think it would be ugly, unpleasant, and- at least from the characters perspective- necessary.


Necessary to ensure safety of the "tribe" is one thing. Punitive revenge is another, and what I'm more concerned about.

Wouldn't surprise me if the people who in the end prevent the police from dealing with the perps are Tuck's family and friends out of a closed-ranks attitude.


Rachel
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2312] Sun, 19 September 2004 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sandradee  is currently offline sandradee
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I am glad there evidently was no rape, not to say they did not do other things. As people had pointed out there were the wet spots I had missed last time.

It is so great Ellen had the time, energy, and motivation to make the episode in spite of anything going on in her personal life. I promised myself to write a story over the summer. Since May I have completed two paragraphs lol. Now to eagerly await the next episode.

The cancelling of the homecoming game and dance was mentioned in the alternate #105, maybe that is what you are thinking of as far as the cancelled PEP rally?
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2313] Sun, 19 September 2004 16:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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rachel.greenham wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 12:13

No, I don't disagree with that assessment. I still don't want it to go down that way though. Smile

Agreed, for the most part. I don't want Ellen to miswrite the characters to keep the violence from happening, however. (Not that I think she would.) Which is why I hope the cops already being involved will act as a break on their actions.
rachel.greenham wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 12:13

Necessary to ensure safety of the "tribe" is one thing. Punitive revenge is another, and what I'm more concerned about.

I've been saying that it has never been about revenge, it's premptive self-defense against further attacks. Which is not the same thing. My worry is how able the cast is to separate the legitimate goal of self-defense from their desire for revenge.
It's the fact that we know these characters so well that makes this such an incredible story. But sometimes knowing the characters doesn't make it any easier to watch.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2314] Sun, 19 September 2004 17:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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i'm only read the chapter once (i've been busy re-reating in anticipation and was a little slower than expected) so i'm just giving first impressions.

1. the nurse could have been confuseled by the chart actualy specifying that a family member could ramain i contact with tuck at all times. could have also been age/gender/marital status confusion.

2. tuckers won't kill... atleast not in a way that can be prooven in coart. i think they were more worried that the opposition might be more organised and wnat more direct confrontations instead of just pushing and teasing in school.

3. as far as upset about police, i think they were hoping to have a little more time to get things like wiretaps and interegations done before they got involved. it could also get the perps on the defencive quicker. we've already seen one of them not answering his phone and his father yelling at him becouse the cops came calling.

4. travis, my favorite topic. tuck never cleared the messages from travis did he? the pager should be in tuck's bag unless it was taken. if it was taken with the laptop, they could try to call the numbers, find out it's travis and go after him next, or atleast try to find out the relation. if it's still in the bag, i would have thought bill would have thought of that... but we don't know. what happened to the stuff in the trashcan? cops pick it up? then the cops cold be the ones to talk to travis... that would suck a LOT.

5. tuck's car. i don't think tuck's car was at the school. somone might have used it to take mike to school or something. i don't know, like i said, i only read it once. and ellen doesn't make mistakes that big very often.

i'm hoping to get more quesitons/ideas after i finish my second and third readings, which will also involve updating the timeline and character list.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2316] Sun, 19 September 2004 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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After thinking about it for a bit, I picked up a detail I'd overlooked.

Tuck 105:

"Mister Tucker, this is Paul Dobson, the principal at your son's high school... I talked to Michael Johansson this morning, and he told me to call you to get an update on Eugene's condition."
There was silence for several seconds, during which Paul's stomach cramped in the old fear of rejection. "He's stable, but still unconscious and in ICU," Eugene's father said. "He's got a concussion and a punctured lung, some-"
"Oh my God," Dobson gasped.


Note "the old fear of rejection"...

I think Dobson has *reason* to be sympathetic. And that's going to have a major effect on what happens.

Mike seems to be realizing this, viz his his salute to Dobson.

Dobson probably won't consider "sinking to their level" and doing anything illegal to the perps. But I bet he'd love to see them get the legal maximum.

His hands are tied somewhat by the school rules though.

If the cops get enough evidence, I expect to see the primary assualt participants tried as adults for a number of felonies. Aggravated assault, reckless endangerment, the list goes on.

Heck, dressing Tuck in that cheerleeaders uniform would count as sexual assualt in some places! (and getting it is breaking and entering).

One more interesting thought. While I doubt it'd happen (and would likely require parental permission) given the rulings over the years about the fact that students *don't* have normal civil rights with regards to things such as searches and free speech, I suspect that it could be argued that the *school* questioning some of them using polygraphs and voice stress analyzers would be legal. Expensive, but legal.

Even threatening that might produce some interesting results. <eg>

Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2317] Sun, 19 September 2004 17:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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While I agree that Tucks friends would *like* to kill those responsible, they've been shown to be not at *all* impulsive when it comes to "payback".

If Tuck doesn't die, killing the attackers is both overkill and operationally *way* too risky.

To quote Lazarus Long: "Cutting his throat is only a momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about."

Frankly, if they could pull it off the best revenge would be framing the attackers for child abuse or paedophilia. Both are "hang 'em now, we don't need a trial" type offenses. Ones where guilt is frequently *assumed* and innocence has to be proven with *great* difficulty. And prison time for anyone convicted of either is *very* hard time. Even hardened felons have standards. And that type of person doesn't meet them.




Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2318] Sun, 19 September 2004 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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One thought that occurs to my regarding that chart is that there's some evidence of something unsuspected about Tuck's weird biology.

One thing that occurs to me is the possibility someone brought up a while back of Tuck having a "period" due to monthly hormonal cycles.

I don't know if any of that would show up on the normal stuff they monitor, but if it could, that'd get someone's attention eventually.

BTW, wonder what all those steroids are gonna do to Tuck's already weird biology?

Oh yeah, it should be most interesting to compare the upcoming CAT scan with the MRI Tuck had on Sep 18 (Tuck 96)
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2320] Sun, 19 September 2004 22:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cate
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Having just finished reading the thread so far, I have three "two cents worth" to toss in.

One the steriods Brooke is asking about are, mostly likely, prednisone (an artifical form of cortisone).

Two, I would guess that Debbie's G'nT' idea will be, more likely than not, directed at the schoolboard if they are unwilling to take appropriate steps against the malefactors. She already has leverage enough to reek havoc on Paul Dobson.

Third, the statements that the police would have no reason to direct their attention towards the Tuckers; because the Tuckers are the aggreived party.
Sorry, from past personal experiences I can't buy that premise. Back during my days of denial ("if I just say no this TS stuff, it will go away" [ROFLMAO at my naive nature]), my wife and I owned rental property down the street from our home. One night the tenants called saying that someone was breaking into a vacant unit. I hotfooted it down there to chase them off. My reward was to be shot at by the two thugs I confronted. They jumped into their Chevy, and took off.
I went home, grabbed the shotgun, tossed it into the pickup, and went looking for them. The cops knew that I was in a red Dodge truck. They knew that I was the victim. They, also, knew the armed robbers were in an tan Impala. Later, a neighbor listening to his police scanner told me the call went out to try and apprehend me. No mention of the guys who shot at me even though they had just committed assault with a deadly weapon, breaking & entering, and God knows what else. Moral of the story, the only real crime in the cop's eyes is victims settling their own scores. Looks bad on tv if a vigilante embarrasses the Poo-leece! {btw I live several hundred miles from where the Tuck saga is based, no regional differences in play).

I would suspect Bill Tucker might be a firm beleiver in this quote from the first Duke of the Duchy of Grand Fenwick: " The pen is mighter than the sword. But! The sword speaks louder at any given moment."

[Updated on: Sun, 19 September 2004 22:10]

Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2321] Sun, 19 September 2004 22:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
L  is currently offline L
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Brooke wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 21:31

While I agree that Tucks friends would *like* to kill those responsible, they've been shown to be not at *all* impulsive when it comes to "payback".


Indeed - I recall at least one car getting seriously damaged in the past... perhaps one of the reasons for recent assults, including the latest one, have something to do with the suspicion that Tuck and the others were involved with that?...

Quote:

Frankly, if they could pull it off the best revenge would be framing the attackers for child abuse or paedophilia. Both are "hang 'em now, we don't need a trial" type offenses. Ones where guilt is frequently *assumed* and innocence has to be proven with *great* difficulty. And prison time for anyone convicted of either is *very* hard time. Even hardened felons have standards. And that type of person doesn't meet them.


Remember when Tuck recognized a girl from school while at the amusement park when he went there as Val with Travis and the kids?... We don't know exactly how much she saw or recognized, but one of the worse case scenarios may involve that info spreading around the school - and several people in that school would gladly act the same way towards a child abuser or a crossdresser they know about ("all pervs"...)... let alone a someone crossdressing while hanging out with the boyfriend and some kids...
Maybe it's a far-fetched worst-case scenario, but Tuck really does have a glass roof, so tossing around false accusations of the sort won't really help on the long run...


BTW, I don't recall other instances of James getting picked on, but it cold have happened... can we be completely sure what we saw in this chapter related to that was related to Tuck's beating?... I mean, the recurring Star Trek stuff, not to mention the name, to some already "invite" abuse...
Kelly already got some before, and I think it was George who also got some since the incident, but that's probably nothing new to Tuck's male friends...
If what's going on is "business as usual", then maybe some of the perps really are sloppy enough about covering up their actions that Mike and the others will manage to get something on them...

It was nice to see Debbie taking advantage of her breakup status with Tuck to try and gather some info as if she were an outsider holding a grudge - considering her abilities and connections, she should prove to be a very powerful ally on this matter...

Rachel doesn't know about what happened to Tuck, does she?... Nor do Tuck's folks know about her assistence with his two-sided life... maybe after things stabilize a bit we'll get to see her explain to them why she agreed to help him by granting access to her (shared) place (despite the fact that when that started Tuck was a relatively recent aquaintance)... assuming Tuck won't be conscious yet, so we can see a dialogue without requiring his presence - even if for his sake I'd much prefer to have chapter 106 starting with him regaining consciousness, restricting the storytelling to his viewpoint as usual...
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2322] Sun, 19 September 2004 22:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Cate, you do have a point. But that's exactly why Bill is trying to avoid the *appearance* of trying to settle scores by themselves (shredding the teletype transcript, telling Mike to store his gun etc) or anything else that *might* be taken as illegal. He knows the cops wouldn't like his "locked & loaded" approach to dealing with an injured son, so he's keeping it under wraps for the moment. Sorry to point that out, but you wasn't exactly keeping a low profile in the case you told. Bill is trying to.

Brooke: the CAT scan apparently is going to be of Tuck's head; the MRI apparently was for his abdominal region. If so, nothing much to compare...

About the "can't be right" chart: I don't know how much info is collected in cases like that. Would estrogens show up in the blood work? Even if Tuck was not having a "period", he probably has an elevated estrogen level.


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
icon1.gif  Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2323] Mon, 20 September 2004 00:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jackfrost  is currently offline Jackfrost
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Sir Lee wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 19:34


Brooke: the CAT scan apparently is going to be of Tuck's head; the MRI apparently was for his abdominal region. If so, nothing much to compare...


Also CAT scans use x-rays they are only really good at looking at hard tissue such as bone (they can pick up other things just not so well). Hence the reason for the MRI(magnets are used here) for doing the internal scans.

I think that we are going to see at least one if not two more chapters in the non Tuck p.o.v. mode. 105 for me is more setup for the next chapters then anything else.

The wire taps are interesting in the fact that some have said that the cops could not use any recording from them in court. If i remember right while if the cops did a tap without a warrant it could not be used, but; because the fourth amendment only applies to the state the taps by an outside source are admissible in court. Now Mike, da Boyz and anyone else who did the taps could be prosecuted for doing the taps in the first place but I think that Mike has enough skillz as not to be connected to any thing give anonymously to the cops. (No legal advice given herein is to be considered a substitute for talking to a real lawyer).

P.S. Man i go to work for eight hours and this thread goes from 1 to 30 entrees. Working Sundays s**ks. Confused


Graduate of Red Bluff High School. No, really I would not lie about something like that. LMAO when that came up as the name of one of the schools.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2324] Mon, 20 September 2004 01:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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I'm fairly sure they did a whole body MRI. With Tuck's weird genetics, it'd be best to do the whole thing. Remember he was refraining from *smiling*.

So they'll have something to compare.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2325] Mon, 20 September 2004 01:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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A point we were missing about the whole "Tuckers vs. the Police" thing:
Since Debbie came back into the Tucker-allied fold, her mother (who is a sheriff's deputy, if I recall) could be a friendly face inside the force... at least to the extent of keeping her colleagues focused on the REAL objectives of the investigation.
(OTOH, if she is ever shown a photo of Tuck and recognizes Valerie... well, Debbie will have a lot 'splaining to do. Emancipated or not, Debbie is still her daughter)


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2326] Mon, 20 September 2004 06:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BubbleEntity  is currently offline BubbleEntity
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a little note re tuck's laptop ...

from what i remember of my own interactions with kids that age, they are more likely to destroy it, or try and render it inopperable ... this comes from my own experences with electronics in highschools... ( i have trouble with spelling and my handwriting makes an exellent cypher, so i was given a .. keyboard thing called an 'alphasmart' to use in school ... almost half the people who got hold of it via various means tryed the del *.* command on it .... pity it was using solidstate storage )
so unless someone in the group is realy poor and insanely stupid, its most likely to be found smashed somewhere ....
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2327] Mon, 20 September 2004 07:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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sandradee wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 13:13

The cancelling of the homecoming game and dance was mentioned in the alternate #105, maybe that is what you are thinking of as far as the cancelled PEP rally?


Nope. From the "real" #105:

Quote:

They canceled the pep rally? Jill asked Kim, not sure shed heard right. Fuck! Kim confirmed. They NEVER do that! Jill looked over at Shannon, who looked slightly guilty and more than slightly upset.


But the information presumably came along with the routine announcements over the school intercom that morning. Dobson probably didn't even take the mic himself. So we don't know what else was announced about the incident -- probably little or nothing, since Tuck's friends seem to be taking more damage than usual that morning, and you'd think the bullies would be more circumspect if they were fully aware that they could be digging their own graves in the wake of the previous day's activity.

sir lee wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 22:37

A point we were missing about the whole "Tuckers vs. the Police" thing:
Since Debbie came back into the Tucker-allied fold, her mother (who is a sheriff's deputy, if I recall) could be a friendly face inside the force... at least to the extent of keeping her colleagues focused on the REAL objectives of the investigation.
(OTOH, if she is ever shown a photo of Tuck and recognizes Valerie... well, Debbie will have a lot 'splaining to do. Emancipated or not, Debbie is still her daughter).


As pointed out in an earlier thread, the incident most likely is being handled by the city police, not the county sheriff's office, so Helen Carstairs wouldn't have any direct input or responsibility until and unless someone had been taken into custody and was being delivered to the county jail. (Also mentioned earlier, by OtherEric, I think: Helen may already know about Tuck/Val, since it would have been difficult for Debbie, in her unsettled state of mind after the return from L.A., to give Helen a plausible explanation for breaking off relations with both Tuck and Val during the L.A. trip when presumably only Val had been present.)

Mike and the tires: Susan and Sarah bought the new tires, jacked up the car and removed the wheels. I think if Mike had been the one who put the new tires on the wheels and the wheels back on the car, the timing would work, though it'd certainly be unclear as to the reason for the division of labor.

The mysterious sounding of the MacInClock: Mike's internal reference to "*Something. Different.*" makes me wonder if there's something more to this than the morning alarm sounding. We're sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop with the stolen laptop checking in. But the Mac doesn't seem to be the logical machine to take the message.

Anybody figure this one out?
Quote:

You know, though, Julia mentioned before she started her car. I dont know if I want to go over there. Eventually, one of ems gonna remember about Tuck, and about Valerie, and if they start asking questions about us and what happened and so on... I dont think I want to be there, she finished. Pam stopped, and then eventually started to nod. I mean, right now, I dont think so... You know at SOME point theyre gonna remember- Yeah, but would they really- Have you seen Tucks mom? Julia pointed out. I REALLY dont think I want her angry at me right now. Pam shook her head in total agreement. And they were pretty angry, is what I heard...

I don't think the "they" in the last sentence refers to the Tuckers. But what group would "eventually...at some point...remember about Tuck, and about Valerie, and start asking questions about us and what happened", and be "pretty angry"?

Eric
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2328] Mon, 20 September 2004 10:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Eric wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 12:50

Anybody figure this one out?
Quote:

"You know, though," Julia mentioned before she started her car. "I don't know if I want to go over there. Eventually, one of 'em's gonna remember about Tuck, and about Valerie, and if they start asking questions about us and what happened and so on... I don't think I want to be there," she finished.

Pam stopped, and then eventually started to nod. "I mean, right now, I don't think so..."

"You know at SOME point they're gonna remember-"

"Yeah, but would they really-"

"Have you seen Tuck's mom?" Julia pointed out. "I REALLY don't think I want her angry at me right now." Pam shook her head in total agreement. "And they were pretty angry, is what I heard..."

I don't think the "they" in the last sentence refers to the Tuckers. But what group would "eventually...at some point...remember about Tuck, and about Valerie, and start asking questions about us and what happened", and be "pretty angry"?

Eric


I took that 'they' as referring to the Tuckers. They've been alienating Tuck's friends already, and this is part of that, and if they're not careful they're going to cost Tuck friends when Tuck needs them most.


Rachel
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2332] Mon, 20 September 2004 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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New thought about the "that's not right" upon looking at the chart.

It's been stated that it looks like he's sleeping. And we know he's been wanting time to think without being bothered. Maybe his subconcious has gotten a clue and he's in some sort of extended dream state working out what to do?

Be interesting if he wakes up with a decision.

And for that matter, given the sort of attack he's expereinced, becoming Val at school doesn't look like it'd be any more dangerous than being Tuck. Because contrary to Bills comment "they" *did* start "actively hunting" Tuck.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2335] Mon, 20 September 2004 17:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Thinking further about Julia's "don't know if I want to go over there...":

Actually, I can think of one group that might qualify in the "remember about Tuck" and "remember Valerie" category: Julia's father's chapter of CDs. And it IS a Friday night, which is when they meet, and they'd want the details, and there might be someone there (school board member? police officer? PTA president? local politician?) who might be in a position to help somehow if they found out, though I'm not sure that anyone in a job like that would dare attend one of those meetings. (And at least one of them knows about Dobson, though I don't really see that fitting in anywhere; if anything, it'd make it less likely that he'd be able to keep his job if one of them blamed him.)

I rejected them before because I thought they were meeting once a month and the original "support group" misunderstanding happened at the end of a month (the fourth Friday). But Debbie's presentation to them came on the third Friday of May.

Still, I can't really see how Julia, who usually avoids them when they're at her house, would be pressured into telling everyone there about Tuck, or why Pam, who doesn't know them, would be concerned, assuming she had any reason at all to go home with Julia. Further, from the sequence of events in the chapter it'd seem to be late afternoon rather than evening, though that's less certain than I thought at first. (But if it's evening and Mike has plans for the Homecoming Dance, it's getting somewhat late to follow them up.)

Eric
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2340] Mon, 20 September 2004 23:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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quote:


"Well, I need to get my car fixed, and I need that more."
"Oh yeah..."



I'm wondering if that is someone stupid enough to be pawning or selling Tuck's laptop...

Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2341] Mon, 20 September 2004 23:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Brooke wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 20:13


I'm wondering if that is someone stupid enough to be pawning or selling Tuck's laptop...

I had though it was Mike refering to his car, but I think your suggestion fits better. Now I'm trying to remeber exactly which of the assholes just had his car attacked. (Cars seem to be one of Da Boyz favorite targets.)
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2343] Tue, 21 September 2004 00:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Raadsel  is currently offline Raadsel
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Quote:

New thought about the "that's not right" upon looking at the chart.

It's been stated that it looks like he's sleeping. And we know he's been wanting time to think without being bothered. Maybe his subconcious has gotten a clue and he's in some sort of extended dream state working out what to do?


I've had a similar idea, I started thinking it while reading when Mike would have his turn with Tuck in the hospital. For some reason I thought of when Tuck came home from LA and Mike had to "wake" him. I've also wondered, if Tuck's sub-conscious has taken over, if perhaps it would end up being Travis who would wake him - though I admit that is highly unlikely.

[Updated on: Tue, 21 September 2004 00:57]

Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2350] Tue, 21 September 2004 09:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Brooke wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 13:46

New becoming Val at school doesn't look like it'd be any more dangerous than being Tuck. Because contrary to Bills comment "they" *did* start "actively hunting" Tuck.



but wouldn't taking testosterone shots and becoming bigger and more masculine make more sence? then he could fight back better. he'd also look more like them. tuck could very easily think that THAT would get them to stop picking on him. kinda like the "harry potter" character from Venus Envy.

would you rather 1. keep getting beat up, 2. possibly get beaten up WORSE, or 3. do something that has the possibility of STOPPING the attacks?

as the saying goes, "if you can't beat them, join them."
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2351] Tue, 21 September 2004 09:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Janet  is currently offline Janet
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Doragoon wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 08:02

Brooke wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 13:46

New becoming Val at school doesn't look like it'd be any more dangerous than being Tuck. Because contrary to Bills comment "they" *did* start "actively hunting" Tuck.



but wouldn't taking testosterone shots and becoming bigger and more masculine make more sence? then he could fight back better. he'd also look more like them. tuck could very easily think that THAT would get them to stop picking on him. kinda like the "harry potter" character from Venus Envy.


Do you really think that Tuck has the mindset to want to join a group like that? I really doubt it.
Doragoon wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 08:02


would you rather 1. keep getting beat up, 2. possibly get beaten up WORSE, or 3. do something that has the possibility of STOPPING the attacks?


But would it stop the attacks?

Again, I doubt it. If Tuck were bigger, stronger, the attacks would continue, just at a different level or in different ways. Would the attackers be likely to embrace someone they considered a pariah just because that person got somewhat more powerful?

I honestly don't believe that Tuck will be able to return to school safely, regardless of the gender role he portrays. Even if it were Valerie who returned, there would be some who would not accept the change and take hostile action.
Doragoon wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 08:02


as the saying goes, "if you can't beat them, join them."

Yes, but that's assuming they'll accept you.


Janet

All that glitters is not Iron Pyrite
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2354] Tue, 21 September 2004 10:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Doragoon wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 14:02

as the saying goes, "if you can't beat them, join them."

Bill Tucker thinks the saying is, "If you can't beat them, shoot them."
If ya don't believe me, ask him. =)


Ellen
nosig

Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2355] Tue, 21 September 2004 11:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Doragoon wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 14:02

Brooke wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 13:46

New becoming Val at school doesn't look like it'd be any more dangerous than being Tuck. Because contrary to Bills comment "they" *did* start "actively hunting" Tuck.



but wouldn't taking testosterone shots and becoming bigger and more masculine make more sence? then he could fight back better. he'd also look more like them. tuck could very easily think that THAT would get them to stop picking on him. kinda like the "harry potter" character from Venus Envy.

would you rather 1. keep getting beat up, 2. possibly get beaten up WORSE, or 3. do something that has the possibility of STOPPING the attacks?

as the saying goes, "if you can't beat them, join them."


No, I can't see Tuck being that stupid. Ignoring for the moment the whole gender identity thing, it's just stupid. He'd be starting from too far back to compete in a physical-strength arms race. He couldn't get big enough or strong enough in enough time to make a difference.

The nearest he might go to that is to become a serious martial-arts freak in some lethal-potential system, as opposed to the eclectic mix of fighting styles he has at the moment (which still weren't that useful against that many opponents, though it seems he probably laid a few marks that'll show).

This is a problem more like Global Thermonuclear Warfare: The only way to win is not to play.


Rachel
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2357] Tue, 21 September 2004 11:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yraen  is currently offline yraen
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"We'd noticed," Dad said tiredly. "Can you watch him? You're
better for him than anyone else. And you've got my cell, so call if there's a problem, right?"

After rereading this morning one of the things that stuck out with me was this conversation between brian and mr. tucker. I am pretty sure that they are talking about how is stats inproved when ms. tucker got close to him. I guess i am just trying to figure out how he would be better for tuck, from my understanding tucker and brian dont get along all that well. I would think mike would be the best with the bond the two have.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2361] Tue, 21 September 2004 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Raadsel  is currently offline Raadsel
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Quote:

After rereading this morning one of the things that stuck out with me was this conversation between brian and mr. tucker. I am pretty sure that they are talking about how is stats inproved when ms. tucker got close to him. I guess i am just trying to figure out how he would be better for tuck, from my understanding tucker and brian dont get along all that well. I would think mike would be the best with the bond the two have.


My understanding is that it isn't that Brian would be better than other family members, it's that all other family members -- including Mike -- are busy at that time. Mike had already stated the earliest he'll be able to sit with Tuck was at some point during the weekend. Instead Mr. Tuck is saying that Brian, because he is family, is better than someone that isn't family.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2362] Tue, 21 September 2004 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Raadsel  is currently offline Raadsel
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Quote:

but wouldn't taking testosterone shots and becoming bigger and more masculine make more sence? then he could fight back better. he'd also look more like them.


We already know what Tuck thinks of jocks, so I can't see him wanting to look or be more like them. We also know that he feels he is better accepted as Valerie, that as Valerie he doesn't need to fight. In school this would likely not stay true but, as pointed out, returning to school as Tuck and taking hormones is a too little, too late solution as well.

I seriously feel that Tuck will not return to school, at least not to McAllen. One possibility is for him to be home schooled or tutored (I can see the school providing a tutor because of liability they would have in not adequately assuring his safety). Another possibility I see, if he chooses to be Valerie full time, would be to attend Red Bluff. Lisa would likely help her out there, based on a return of friendship between Debbie and Val. Travis, depending on how things turn out with him, could also be a major help in Val's acceptance.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2367] Tue, 21 September 2004 18:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

The nearest he might go to that is to become a serious martial-arts freak in some lethal-potential system, as opposed to the eclectic mix of fighting styles he has at the moment


umm... let's review

tuck's dad is a government trained killer.

tuck's sister was raped.

tuck's dad taught her all the nasty things he could in as short of a period of time.

tuck and brian helped.


tuck already knows the nasty stuff. if not, tuck's dad and sister will teach him whatever he might not know.


Quote:

This is a problem more like Global Thermonuclear Warfare: The only way to win is not to play.


but if they are deturmined to hit you, you have to hit them as hard as you can, as fast as you can. becouse if you don't, they will never stop. ender had it right. and as tuck said, violence DOES solve problems.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2368] Tue, 21 September 2004 18:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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I still think it likely that Tuck would end up being disappointed by the action of male hormones on his physique. I suspect that besides other physical problems, Tuck has PAIS, partial androgen insensitivity syndrome. It's just like Ellen to pile insult on top of injury like that. Twisted Evil

Assuming the story gets that far for Tuck to find out.

What I think is going to happen is that while out of it, Tuck is going to decide that Valerie is the source of most of the happiness experienced recently while Eugene is a target of much trouble and pain (rose tint my world, keep me safe...). With that realization is going to come the idea that perhaps Valerie deserves the chance to be considered the primary personality with Eugene the fallback for special situations. Attending some school as Valerie would then make sense.

At 16, Tuck can start college. Two semesters of bonehead English would be a small price to pay to get out of the hell of high school and I can see Paul Dobson issuing a HS diploma in the current situation.

- Erin
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2369] Tue, 21 September 2004 18:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Doragoon wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 06:02

Brooke wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 13:46

New becoming Val at school doesn't look like it'd be any more dangerous than being Tuck. Because contrary to Bills comment "they" *did* start "actively hunting" Tuck.



but wouldn't taking testosterone shots and becoming bigger and more masculine make more sence? then he could fight back better. he'd also look more like them. tuck could very easily think that THAT would get them to stop picking on him. kinda like the "harry potter" character from Venus Envy.

would you rather 1. keep getting beat up, 2. possibly get beaten up WORSE, or 3. do something that has the possibility of STOPPING the attacks?

as the saying goes, "if you can't beat them, join them."


This is *Tuck* we are talking about.

He doesn't go looking for trouble. And that sort of behavior just *isn't* him.

It'd also mean giving up Val. And that's something he's not been willing to do. Also, though I doubt it's occured to anyone yet, there has been evidence that Tuck wants kids. And going on T is going to kill the slim chance *she* has.

It'd involve (minor) surgery, but they *can* harvest eggs from that ovary. And with in vitro fertilization, all she'd need would be a sperm donor and someone willing to carry the child.

Val looks like she'd make a good mother.

But T will screw up that ovary *seriously*.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2370] Tue, 21 September 2004 18:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Janet wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 06:39


But would it stop the attacks?

Again, I doubt it. If Tuck were bigger, stronger, the attacks would continue, just at a different level or in different ways. Would the attackers be likely to embrace someone they considered a pariah just because that person got somewhat more powerful?


I think Tuck would settle for being left alone. He wouldn't want to *join* them.

But I don't see that happening.

Janet wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 06:39

I honestly don't believe that Tuck will be able to return to school safely, regardless of the gender role he portrays. Even if it were Valerie who returned, there would be some who would not accept the change and take hostile action.


Well, while I don't *expect* it, it is *possible* that between added security, jailing of the primary attackers and making details of just how badly the beat up Tuck, the "culture" of the school could be turned around enough to make the jocks and cheerleaders no longer "immune".

A lot of this shit depends on the majority of the other students tolerating or ignoring shit like the tripping in the halls, etc. If the other students decide that these folks are *dangerous* jerks, and can be convinced that breaking the code of silence is better for everybody, then anything beyond verbal harassment gets a *lot* harder to get away with.

Again, I don't expect it. But it is *possible*. Doesn't mean that the nerds will be any better liked, just that there'd be "cultural" limits on what was tolerated in the way of abuse.

Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2371] Tue, 21 September 2004 18:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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yraen wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 08:30

"We'd noticed," Dad said tiredly. "Can you watch him? You're
better for him than anyone else. And you've got my cell, so call if there's a problem, right?"

After rereading this morning one of the things that stuck out with me was this conversation between brian and mr. tucker. I am pretty sure that they are talking about how is stats inproved when ms. tucker got close to him. I guess i am just trying to figure out how he would be better for tuck, from my understanding tucker and brian dont get along all that well. I would think mike would be the best with the bond the two have.


Well, as I recall, there's at least one instance in the stories where Brian sleeps with Tuck because of Tuck's nightmares.

They don't get along, yeah. Siblings do that.

But they really are family. It's just that neither has allowed themselves to *openly* care.

Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2372] Tue, 21 September 2004 18:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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I thought Tuck was sterile. Could they really harvest her eggs?
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2373] Tue, 21 September 2004 18:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 15:22

I still think it likely that Tuck would end up being disappointed by the action of male hormones on his physique. I suspect that besides other physical problems, Tuck has PAIS, partial androgen insensitivity syndrome. It's just like Ellen to pile insult on top of injury like that. Twisted Evil


<innocent>
Ellen wouldn't do anything like *that*!
</innocent>

Yeah. You can stop laughing now.

Erin Halfelven wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 15:22

What I think is going to happen is that while out of it, Tuck is going to decide that Valerie is the source of most of the happiness experienced recently while Eugene is a target of much trouble and pain (rose tint my world, keep me safe...). With that realization is going to come the idea that perhaps Valerie deserves the chance to be considered the primary personality with Eugene the fallback for special situations. Attending some school as Valerie would then make sense.


It's a distincty possiblity. Thouigh I expect the hell he's gone thru the last few days after his mom caught him is going to make that a much harder decision to come to.

While it's not likely, I can hope that Sarah may try apologizing to Tuck for overreacting while she's watching him some night. He *will* hear that and react to it (lots of evidence of unconcious folks reacting to what's said around them).

*Way* too obvious and simple for Ellen would be for Val to wake up at the end of the apology. Be a fun scene to write though. But
I'd be afraid of stepping on Ellen's toes if I tried it.

Erin Halfelven wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 15:22

At 16, Tuck can start college. Two semesters of bonehead English would be a small price to pay to get out of the hell of high school and I can see Paul Dobson issuing a HS diploma in the current situation.


Not sure he'd be *allowed* to issue one. Tuck probably needs some English credits to meet graduation requirements.

And apparently he doesn't have the "out" I had. In my junior year, they offered a class in formal logic at my high school. And it counted as an English credit (I guess because they were thinking "debate"). Mind you, I did okay at regular English classes, but I jumped at the chance to take the class.
Re: Chapter 105 is here [message #2374] Tue, 21 September 2004 19:06 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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lurker wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 15:52

I thought Tuck was sterile. Could they really harvest her eggs?


No evidence one way or the other. But that Ovary is definitely producing enough female hormones to feminize Tuck. So odds favor it being functional.

They'd just need to dose her with the right drugs and get a "collection tube" (can't recall the proper name) into the fallopian tube.

A bit of suction and you've got eggs.

Heck, it's something that some bright doctor might suggest as a way to see just how functional that ovary is. If he or she thinks of it.

And it's something that really *should* be attempted before they try putting Tuck on testosterone. Sort of like getting a sperm sample before a childless M2F goes on estrogen. Insurance in case they ever want kids.

Not that most folks would think of either. Sad
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