Home » Tuck Talk » Chapter discussion of Tuck Season... » Part05
Part05 [message #2640] Sun, 24 October 2004 10:02 Go to next message
karen_page  is currently offline karen_page
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Well the biggest trouble all around is trust.

Valerie doesn't trust anybody and nobody appears to trust Valerie. With the way Valerie is getting so little sleep will she last till Saturday?

And isn't it a relief that the alarm wasn't something like 4747 as the order would never be found as the grease would be on both numbers!

It will be interesting to see if Val opens up to Charlie. Comradship might just help.


Hugs

Karen
Re: Part05 [message #2641] Sun, 24 October 2004 11:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Luthien  is currently offline Luthien
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As far as trust goes - the biggest problem seems to be that each party here seems to be pre-programmed to not trust the other. By that I mean it's a vicious cycle - Tucker doesn't trust Jane, so he doesn't sleep or eat, causing more accidents to happen and causing Jane not to trust him.

I think I need to re-read the first chapters of this new revision, because I'm not completely understanding where how the situation got to be this tense. In the previous drafts, Tucker certainly had a good bit of mistrust for everyone else, but it wasn't affecting him as much as it seems to be now. What's different that's causing Tucker to push himself so much harder in this 'final' version, or is it just a different picture of Tuck?
Re: Part05 [message #2642] Sun, 24 October 2004 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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It's a couple of things, I think. Tuck was a bit more paranoid about the food being drugged in this one. That, combined with the delay in getting to the salon & the mall, has kept Tuck hungry and isolated for a longer period of time. Which is causing the situation to rapidly decline for Tuck. For that matter, Tuck had some leverage on Jane after the mall escape episode in the original, and both Tuck & Jane knew it. Tuck doesn't have that leverage yet, and that's making things much worse as well.

I'm vaguely suprised we haven't had a blow-up on the food issue yet. I keep expecting Jane to call Tuck on not eating in a slightly more concerned manner, or at least not accept the obvious brush-offs Tuck is giving; and Tuck will explain in no small detail Tuck's aversion to drugs in the food. It would be quite interesting to see Jane's reaction to that- she doesn't react well to being caught at one of her tricks.

Re: Part05 [message #2643] Sun, 24 October 2004 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Luthien  is currently offline Luthien
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I was also expecting Jane to question the not-eating issue, but she's barely mentioned it (other than showing some concern at the table.) I would have thought she'd bring it up with Charlene at least, and try to find out that way.

I doubt that Tuck would in any way reveal why he's not eating to anyone in the house, and it's such a paranoid thing that I don't think anyone would deduce it on their own.

Although, now that you mention it, I'm eagerly awaiting the revised versions of the mall/salon scenes; those were/are some of the best/most satisfying parts of the series.
Re: Part05 [message #2645] Sun, 24 October 2004 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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*scribbles notes* Keep talking...


Ellen
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Re: Part05 [message #2646] Sun, 24 October 2004 16:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Luthien wrote on Sun, 24 October 2004 12:14


I doubt that Tuck would in any way reveal why he's not eating to anyone in the house, and it's such a paranoid thing that I don't think anyone would deduce it on their own.

See, I actually think Tuck might spill the beans on that situation. It wouldn't stop Tuck from actually not eating. And, I could easily see Tuck being frustrated at a stupid question- why aren't you eating- when, to Tuck, the answer is obvious.

Also, while I won't dispute that Tuck can be paranoid, this case is in no way paranoia. Tuck knows they drugged the food once. That is not a category in which you normally give someone a second chance. (If they come to you later and explain the whys and wherefores, that might be different. Tuck has no reason to trust them now, and they need to go a very long way to ever gain any trust.)
Re: Part05 [message #2647] Sun, 24 October 2004 16:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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I think Jane and Marie haven't yet caught on to the fact that Tuck has flushed the meal(s) Marie brought up. Or that he puked up one or more of the ones he "ate" at the table.

(checking).

Ok, he gets drugged at lunch the first day. That's the only food in part 1.

Part 2, he eats the cookie Charlene offers. And he eats dinner and keeps it down.

End of day 1.

Day 2
At breakfast, he's drinking coffee with lots of coffee and cream when there's the accident. And then pukes *that* up. Which no one catches.

He also pukes up lunch that day, but Marie does know about that.

end of of part 2

part 3
Not clear if he eats anything at tea. I suspect not.

At dinner he has two bowls of salad. And Jane *thinks* he's not hungry any more.

Day 3

breakfast. Toast, "toppings" and fruit.

end of part 3

part 4

Marie brings lunch to room. Tuck flushes everything but the apple.
And Marie and Jane erroneously decide that he's trying to lose weight.

No tea.

Dinner. Just Salad again. Which he then pukes up in a stress reaction. And which nobody catches.

Then he dumps the tray Marie brought.

He sneaks some chili and some soup that night.

end of day 3
end of part4

part 5
day 4

No breakfast.

Can't tell if he got lunch or not. I'd guess not.

Tea, probably no biscuits.

No supper.

day 5

breakfast. Juice

end of part 5.

So not only has Val eaten way less than half what they think she has, she hasn't gotten more than a couple hours of sleep in one chunk, possibly as little as 1 hour. And a total of (at a guess) less than 8 hours since she arrived.

Add in the injuries, and the sheer *stress* and she's in bad shape.

Worse yetr, upon re-reading to get the food info above, I see that Jane has made a *huge* mistake. She's planning to try *playing to* Val's fear of her.

*If* Charlene mentions Val's comment about Val being *afraid* to be asleep when Marie or Jane entered the room to Diana, and Jane mentions the way that Val tried to stay away from her after falling during that last book-balancing excercise to Diana, *maybe* Art will put two and two together and realize that Val is in full blown "abuse victim surrounded by abusers" mode.

If not, there's the potential for things to get *really* ugly when Jane *tries* to make Val scared of her. Because she could easily push Val into "nothing to lose" mode.

In any case, once things get (eventually) sorted out, Jane is going to have to make some procedural changes. Like realizing that drugging the kids will cause a *major* breach of trust with some. And that the really paranoid ones will be expecting it from then on, even though she has no intention of dxoing it.

So the bit with Marie bringing in pre-loaded plates will have to quit until trust can be established.

True, few kids she gets will be as paranoid as Val, but not taking precautions for any future kids that are that bad is stupid. And Jane isn't stupid.

Anyway, if Diana figures out why Val is so afraid of Jane & Marie, I expect some utter shock from both of them when he explains just what Val was expecting and how they've been making things worse.

Frankly, I'm wondering *how* Val can be gotten to trust them at this point. She'll need to get *some* trust or she won't come back after the escape from the salon (assuming that happens in this version).









Re: Part05 [message #2648] Sun, 24 October 2004 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Actually, the more stuff like this I read, the more I want to write... =)


Ellen
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Re: Part05 [message #2650] Sun, 24 October 2004 23:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Sun, 24 October 2004 15:20

Actually, the more stuff like this I read, the more I want to write... =)


Ellen
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Good! Smile
Re: Part05 [message #2654] Mon, 25 October 2004 03:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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This episode continues to redefine the phrase, "painfully funny." Smile

- Erin
Re: Part05 [message #2655] Mon, 25 October 2004 03:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Luthien  is currently offline Luthien
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OtherEric wrote on Sun, 24 October 2004 16:27


See, I actually think Tuck might spill the beans on that situation. It wouldn't stop Tuck from actually not eating. And, I could easily see Tuck being frustrated at a stupid question- why aren't you eating- when, to Tuck, the answer is obvious.



While the answer is obvious to Tuck, I still somehow doubt that he'd tell the *whole* truth. I think it's more likely that he'd make something up, as he can be quite stubborn - to him, telling them what he's actually afraid of is a form of 'giving in', and he's not going to let that happen. Subconciously, I think Tuck thinks it would afford them more insight into how his mind works than he wants them to have.
Re: Part05 [message #2657] Mon, 25 October 2004 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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I think the worst thing going wrong with their program is that Charlene isn't friendly enough. Tuck is used to bullies and knows to stay away from them whether they are tuck's sister, or just some wandering jock. Ellen is trying to bring tuck closer to Charlene through pity and compassion, and it might work, but I don't think that's the right kinda relationship for the program. Charlene needs to be supporting tuck, not the other way around. And if Jane would realize that tuck keeps sticking up for the little girl...

The next thing is that as soon as they realized that Tuck and Charlene aren't getting along, Marie should have stepped up to provide another possible friend. But tuck wouldn't be quick to trust her, and they are still operating under the assumption that tuck is just being a jerk and is still resisting the threat to his masculine identity. Jane should be pondering this little piece of non-congruous information too.

Jane for her part is failing to react appropriately. She's usually better at reading students than this. She should be worried about self destructive behavior, especially during these first couple weeks. And when previous boys failed to respond in a predicted way, they took things slower, fearing to make a mistake. Especially after Michelle they don't want to rush into anything blind.

Jane's only lost two students in the past (two right?) and she will NOT want to loose another. Jane or Marie should be watching the security cameras as often as possible trying to figure out what's going on. Staying up late fretting about tuck would be a nice touch.

I feel it would also would have been wise for them to keep Charlene away from him. Tuck should be kept away from any situation that causes tuck to react unnecessarily violent. These situations should be introduced later after tuck has adjusted to his new environment. Jane knows all this, its part of the program. It feels like Jane is being less concerned with fixing tuck's problems and more with humiliating the boy. (VERY NOT JANE!!)

Jane is usually a LOT more caring than this, even during the first couple days. She's careful to criticize only for the undesirable traits while praising constantly for feminine ones, which is perceived as punishment by the overly masculine boys. Jane hasn't given tuck any marks above satisfactory in a while, if ever. Complimenting the clothing doesn't count since tuck has no choice in it.

Tuck is being paranoid to a level never before imagined, but it's completely justifiable in tuck's mind. He is clumsy and bitchy like he always gets when he doesn't eat or sleep enough. This is all a game to tuck, and Jane hasn't set any real rules or boundaries. All tuck aims to do is survive, but until Jane sets the limit of him being sent away for non-compliance and stuff, tuck will not play her game. Jane has to play tuck's game first, and beat him at it. It's what Jane always has to do in the first weeks of a new student, and she's usually pretty good at it. She's definitely off her game.

There's a lot of clues out there and Jane isn't thinking about ANY of them. And why is she relying on Art, she didn't used to have to do that.

[Updated on: Mon, 25 October 2004 13:09]

Re: Part05 [message #2659] Mon, 25 October 2004 15:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Doragoon wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 10:05

I think the worst thing going wrong with their program is that Charlene isn't friendly enough. Tuck is used to bullies and knows to stay away from them whether they are tuck's sister, or just some wandering jock. Ellen is trying to bring tuck closer to Charlene through pity and compassion, and it might work, but I don't think that's the right kinda relationship for the program. Charlene needs to be supporting tuck, not the other way around. And if Jane would realize that tuck keeps sticking up for the little girl...


Well, part of that is that Jane is relying on the info she got sent about the *other* Eugene. and part is that she doesn't *know* that Tuck is acting that way to Charlene. The *only* instance she's observed was Tuck taking the rap for pushing Charlene into the manure pile.

All the other have been in private. And *Charlene* isn't going to mention them.

And given what little we know about the other Eugene, she's not going to *expect* him to be nice to a girl.

Doragoon wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 10:05

The next thing is that as soon as they realized that Tuck and Charlene aren't getting along, Marie should have stepped up to provide another possible friend. But tuck wouldn't be quick to trust her, and they are still operating under the assumption that tuck is just being a jerk and is still resisting the threat to his masculine identity. Jane should be pondering this little piece of non-congruous information too.


Well, part of the problem is that Tuck *is* being a jerk. Partly on purpose, partly thru (now) inappropriate "defense mechanisms".

And that goes along with the bad behavior she thinks he's there for. Tucks sarcasm and fighting are probably just close enough to what she'd expect the other Eugene to be doing that she hasn't yet registered that they are only superficially similar.

Marie has tried to be a friend, but Tuck almost certainly has her classed as part of the drugging incident. Add in some of the stuff in the latest episode (like trying to grab him in the shower) and she's still on the "bad guys" list.

Doragoon wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 10:05

Jane for her part is failing to react appropriately. She's usually better at reading students than this. She should be worried about self destructive behavior, especially during these first couple weeks. And when previous boys failed to respond in a predicted way, they took things slower, fearing to make a mistake. Especially after Michelle they don't want to rush into anything blind.


Tuck's behavior is throwing them off. I think that in part this is because many of the worst reactions are due to things they don't know about him, and that she hasn't had a lot of experience with.

Mostly the fact that Tuck is suffering from a history of pretty severe abuse. While I'm sure a few others have wound up at Jane's with a similar history of abuse, they probably had the *other* "common" reaction to abuse. They turned into abusers.

So their reactions are completely different from Tucks.

But Tuck's defensive sarcasm and "self-righteousness" with regards to what he sees as stupidity and unfairness come across as the sort of arrogance that such victims turned abuser would exhibit.

Doragoon wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 10:05

Jane's only lost two students in the past (two right?) and she will NOT want to loose another. Jane or Marie should be watching the security cameras as often as possible trying to figure out what's going on. Staying up late fretting about tuck would be a nice touch.


Ah. But Tuck is blocking the cameras. And doing so in the dark. Assuming that they are as bad as they were in the old version of the story, that means they can't tell that he's blocked them.

BTW, if I was Tuck doing the "security upgrades" I think I'd have some *well* hidden light sensors in the bedrooms or some other way of recording that the lights had been turned on.


Doragoon wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 10:05

I feel it would also would have been wise for them to keep Charlene away from him. Tuck should be kept away from any situation that causes tuck to react unnecessarily violent. These situations should be introduced later after tuck has adjusted to his new environment. Jane knows all this, its part of the program. It feels like Jane is being less concerned with fixing tuck's problems and more with humiliating the boy. (VERY NOT JANE!!)


Jane is rather stressed out too. And she *can't* keep Charlene away, as that messes up *Charlene's* training.

Also, the "violent responses" have all been to "normal" stuff seen thru Tuck's unfortunate reflexes. Jane is still trying to find something that *works* as a handle *and* she is trying to give him the *required* training in "feminine graces".

Both are not things she *can* postpone. The program hinges on the student *not* being comfortable the first few weeks.

But until someone clues in on *why* Tuck is reacting badly to various seemingly unrelated things, they can't avoid problems.

With luck, Diana will figure it out. The problem is hoilding things together until Diana can observe firsthand.

[quote title=Doragoon wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 10:05]Jane is usually a LOT more caring than this, even during the first couple days. She's careful to criticize only for the undesirable traits while praising constantly for feminine ones, which is perceived as punishment by the overly masculine boys. Jane hasn't given tuck any marks above satisfactory in a while, if ever. Complimenting the clothing doesn't count since tuck has no choice in it.[/]

We are only on day 4. And only halfway thru that.

And complimenting the clothes *choices* does count. Tuck has had some choices there.

Alas, he improved too fast for her to compliment him on makeup. And the stress has destroyed his ability to do well at the "grace" lessons.

So does care. But she's also going nuts trying to figure out *why* Tuck is reacting the way he is. With the possible exception of the incident near the barn, every punishment he's gotten has been pretty much not optional.

Jane has *not* punished him for not doing well. Just for "acting out". That's as much Tuck's fault as hers.

Also, Tuck's reactions haven't left any way for Jane to show that she cares. She can't hug him or even help him up from a fall. Tuck won't allow it. He sees all her other attempts at kindness as tricks.

Doragoon wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 10:05

Tuck is being paranoid to a level never before imagined, but it's completely justifiable in tuck's mind. He is clumsy and bitchy like he always gets when he doesn't eat or sleep enough. This is all a game to tuck, and Jane hasn't set any real rules or boundaries. All tuck aims to do is survive, but until Jane sets the limit of him being sent away for non-compliance and stuff, tuck will not play her game. Jane has to play tuck's game first, and beat him at it. It's what Jane always has to do in the first weeks of a new student, and she's usually pretty good at it. She's definitely off her game.


Given what she's up against, it's a wonder she's still trying.

Doragoon wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 10:05

There's a lot of clues out there and Jane isn't thinking about ANY of them. And why is she relying on Art, she didn't used to have to do that.


There aren't *nearly* as many clues as you think. and the patterns are far from obvious. She's in over her head in some ways because Tuck is *way* out in left field. In a direction she's never dealt with before.

There aren't as many clues as you may think. And most of them only tie together once you know the right things about Tuck's background.

Until then, you won't realize that they all tie together. Instead they'll seem to be symptoms of several *other* things.

Yeah, they are being a bit slow to assemble what clues there are. But part of that is because not all of the clues are held by a single person.

Bob's comment about Tuck getting picked on at school. Charlene's observation (not passed on!) that Tuck is *terrified* of being asleep when Marie or Jane come into the room, his reactions to touch, etc all make a patteren. But only if you have all that info and more *and* either have the training or experience with abused kids.

*We* see all the clues *and* we know what Tuck's background is. That gives us a very different point of view from anyone in the story.
Re: Part05 [message #2662] Mon, 25 October 2004 18:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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*groans in pain* Now I don't know WHO to believe!
Anyone else have comments in this area? I'm not able to judge this myself...


Ellen
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Re: Part05 [message #2663] Mon, 25 October 2004 18:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Luthien  is currently offline Luthien
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I agree with Doragoon that Jane isn't reading enough into Tuck's behavior. At this early point in the story, I don't think Charlene's acting that strange; while she and Tuck aren't on the best terms they seem to be getting along somewhat better after the manure incident. (case in point - tuck taking charge in covering up for the broken railing, which I'm interested to see the resolution of.)

While I haven't read the first 4 revised chapters recently, the impression I get is that the only interaction Jane is having with Tuck is negative, i.e. scolding him during "lessons" or getting on his case for inappropriate behavior. I think she should be better tailoring the program to the individual's situation, but she doesn't really seem to be doing this. (Yet - we'll see how it goes.)

as an aside - brooke, if i'm not mistaken - charlene did tell jane about tuck being terrified of being asleep when jane/marie entered, when jane was quizzing her about "what happened" during that time.

the one thing I don't agree with is keeping charlene away from tuck. As i mentioned, they seem to be getting along better - tuck being able to sleep when charlene's around, and actually getting real sleep during that time, shows that he has a certain amount of trust in her. At least, he sees her more (but not completely) as a fellow 'inmate' than part of 'the system'. If anything he'd be worse off if there was absolutely no one around during this time, when he's in such terrible shape. Charlene is, at worst, someone who's not actively trying to abuse him, and this episode shows their relationship changing for the better.

I probably repeated myself somewhat, but I think I got my point across. That's what I get for not sleeping enough. I hate assembly language. Oh, and typing this post makes me realize how much I hate Safari (the OSX browser), as I'm in a lab in the college library.

Ellen, hope this helps somewhat, i'll be sure to keep up the debate if it helps out the writing at all! Very Happy
Re: Part05 [message #2665] Mon, 25 October 2004 22:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 15:03


Anyone else have comments in this area? I'm not able to judge this myself...

I don't think Tuck qualifies as having suffered a "history of severe abuse", like Brooke suggests. Other than that, the give and take seems to have gone beyond my level of analysis.
Re: Part05 [message #2666] Mon, 25 October 2004 22:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jennifervg  is currently offline jennifervg
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Brooke wrote on Sun, 24 October 2004 13:50


*If* Charlene mentions Val's comment about Val being *afraid* to be asleep when Marie or Jane entered the room to Diana, and Jane mentions the way that Val tried to stay away from her after falling during that last book-balancing excercise to Diana, *maybe* Art will put two and two together and realize that Val is in full blown "abuse victim surrounded by abusers" mode.



Actually I think this is a very valid and seemingly over looked point. If Jane and Diana realize that Val is acting like someone who has been abused they are going to want to tell the judge who sent Eugene (the one they think they have) there that he is an abuse victim. Which opens up a whole other messy can of worms that could end rapidly with the discovery of the identity mistake.
Re: Part05 [message #2667] Mon, 25 October 2004 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Well, I'll agree with the others to the extent that Jane (or someone) needs to get a clue sometime soon. Even if she can't put it all together, *Diana* ought to recognize that Something is Seriously Wrong when she hears that Val is trying to scramble away when Jane tried to help him up after running into the table.

I think Jane's lack of clue about this is excusable. Barely. But she's going to beat up on herself for not realizing there was a problem when she finds out. But that's what Jane *always* does when that has happened with other students.

If they don't get a clue Bad Things Will Happen. Sad
Re: Part05 [message #2668] Mon, 25 October 2004 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Luthien wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 15:46

as an aside - brooke, if i'm not mistaken - charlene did tell jane about tuck being terrified of being asleep when jane/marie entered, when jane was quizzing her about "what happened" during that time.


I just checked. Charlene mentioned that Val reacted badly to having been asleep when she (Charlene) walked in. Several paragraphs later, she states that she thinks Val is afraid of Jane.

The two things are seperated by quite a bit. For "proper" clueing-in, they need to be stated together.
Re: Part05 [message #2669] Mon, 25 October 2004 22:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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OtherEric wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 19:23

I don't think Tuck qualifies as having suffered a "history of severe abuse", like Brooke suggests. Other than that, the give and take seems to have gone beyond my level of analysis.


Well, let me put it this way. I know people (including myself) who've been thru a lot less than the assholes at various schools have put Tuck thru. And we all have lovely things like PTSD and other problems. But not to the extent Tuck does.

Getting put in the hospital (the junior high incident) and various other things he's mentioned do indeed count as worse than usual abuse.

Also, his reactions are those of someone whose been thru some pretty bad stuff. The flinching and automatic defense moves, for example.

Re: Part05 [message #2670] Mon, 25 October 2004 23:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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jennifervg wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 19:33

Actually I think this is a very valid and seemingly over looked point. If Jane and Diana realize that Val is acting like someone who has been abused they are going to want to tell the judge who sent Eugene (the one they think they have) there that he is an abuse victim. Which opens up a whole other messy can of worms that could end rapidly with the discovery of the identity mistake.


Good point. But then again, I think Ellen can find ways to write around that. The background of the other Eugene hasn't been defioned *at all* in this version. So it's possible that there's stuff in there that will make it look like it's "just" a bad case of "bullying" at school.

That stuff *is* abuse. But not the sort that leads to much in the way of reporting. Alas.

Don't get me started on the way far too many school systems deal with that sort of thing.
Re: Part05 [message #2678] Tue, 26 October 2004 04:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Just to clarify, the reason I think tuck and Charlene's contact needs to be limited is because according to the program the big sister is supposed to be someone who the student can look up to and ask for help. Tuck is almost filling the role of big sister for Charlene. And Jane Should be realizing after tuck covered up for Charlene's attack at the stables and comforted her when she was crying, that tuck isn't mean or heartless. They could use that relationship to get tuck to accept the program if they were smart, but Jane is just assuming tuck's not responding to anyone at all.

Charlene just wasn't ready to have a little sister. Can you imagine if Charlene got a REAL criminally violent boy? Someone who might smack her ass and call her "sweet cheeks" or something stupid like that? How would she respond when the kid gets violent at her?

So far, all tuck has done is respond to provoked attacks, acted out, talked back, been clumsy and made mistakes... none of which is unexpected for a boy during his first couple days (Caitlyn had her share of accidents). And suddenly she's pondering sending him home? WHY?!?! What's she expecting? Just put a violent criminal in a dress, call him names, push him into performing impossible tasks and make fun of him when he stumbles and he'll suddenly start acting like a perfect little princess?

Seasons stories normally read almost like a psychological mystery, with Jane trying to puzzle out what makes the child tick. This one Jane is just being mean, which I guess would make it more like a psychological horror.

I'll put my Whatley Academy re-read on hold for a while, I guess, and go back to re-read the seasons stuff, try to get notes and things that might help. Because the only response I have right now is that Jane is usually better with children than this. Jane's more of a Dobson than a Nickerson. Tough love compared to Nazi-like discipline.

[Updated on: Tue, 26 October 2004 06:22]

Re: Part05 [message #2679] Tue, 26 October 2004 06:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

Also, his reactions are those of someone whose been thru some pretty bad stuff. The flinching and automatic defense moves, for example.


i can see that, and i wouldn't be surprized if jane suspected physical or sexual abuse, espetialy by a woman. but jane isn't giving the flinching and pulling away and freaking out any thought at all.

and i don't think that tuck would say he's been abused, nor do i think he has the mentality of a victim.
Re: Part05 [message #2680] Tue, 26 October 2004 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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jennifervg wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 03:33

Actually I think this is a very valid and seemingly over looked point. If Jane and Diana realize that Val is acting like someone who has been abused they are going to want to tell the judge who sent Eugene (the one they think they have) there that he is an abuse victim. Which opens up a whole other messy can of worms that could end rapidly with the discovery of the identity mistake.


You think it would end there?

Jane has a well-documented history of moving heaven and earth to avoid sending a child back into an abusive situation, and whether or not they should have been sent to her in the first place is not a consideration that weighs heavily on her at those times. She's liable to intervene, with all the money, resources and contacts she has at her disposal.

Ooooooooh

Oooh, now that could be entertaining!


Rachel
Re: Part05 [message #2681] Tue, 26 October 2004 11:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Problem is, if Jane takes any sort of measures to keep Tuck away from his family, and he finds out... That's an act of war. And the first thing he'd do is inform his parents... who would also treat it as an act of war.

I've heard Tucker's family described as a bunch of survivalist militia-type fanatics. What do you think "a bunch of survivalist militia-type fanatics" would do to keep their kid from being legally kidnapped?

Entertaining? Sure, the same way reading about Mossad or KGB wet ops is entertaining...


Ellen
nosig
Re: Part05 [message #2682] Tue, 26 October 2004 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Doragoon wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 03:22


Quote:

Also, his reactions are those of someone whose been thru some pretty bad stuff. The flinching and automatic defense moves, for example.


i can see that, and i wouldn't be surprized if jane suspected physical or sexual abuse, espetialy by a woman. but jane isn't giving the flinching and pulling away and freaking out any thought at all.

and i don't think that tuck would say he's been abused, nor do i think he has the mentality of a victim.


Actually, Tuck himself refers to the stuff at school as abuse. Tuck42 he explicitly refers to stuff as psychological abuse, for example. In 61 he notes that he's been programmed to abuse himself. In 67 he refers to the abuse he's been taking for years. In 71, *Shiela* calls it abuse and Tuck doesn't even blink. Again in 76, he refers to abuse. And 82 and 95.

Yes, Tuck also uses the word abuse a lot. Much the same as he uses (overuses!) other labels to desensitize himself (as he told Shiela in a session).

As for being a "victim", there's a reason many support groups make a point of referring to "abuse *survivors*". Victim has negative connotations that distort the views of outsiders.

Make no mistake, between the described physical and psychological assualts on Tuck, and the defense mechanisms he display, he's been abused. He's survived more or less intact (those nightmares are an example of the "less")

I've only had one Tuck style nightmare. And that was in a really lousy point in my life when I had good reason to believe that "they" *were* out to get me.

He has them all the time. Ick.

In any case, abuse, especially by "peers" is a lot more common than people are willing to admit.

Re: Part05 [message #2683] Tue, 26 October 2004 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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rachel.greenham wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 06:30

You think it would end there?

Jane has a well-documented history of moving heaven and earth to avoid sending a child back into an abusive situation, and whether or not they should have been sent to her in the first place is not a consideration that weighs heavily on her at those times. She's liable to intervene, with all the money, resources and contacts she has at her disposal.

Ooooooooh

Oooh, now that could be entertaining!



Jane *also* tries to not go off half-cocked. So she'd investigate. And since the abuse isn't coming from family but from "peers" at school, even *Jane* can't do much.

Also, Jane finding out she's got the wrong kid before the equivalent of the "endgame" section of the original story makes for a story rather more different than I think Ellen wants to write.
Re: Part05 [message #2684] Tue, 26 October 2004 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 16:32

Problem is, if Jane takes any sort of measures to keep Tuck away from his family, and he finds out... That's an act of war. And the first thing he'd do is inform his parents... who would also treat it as an act of war.

I've heard Tucker's family described as a bunch of survivalist militia-type fanatics. What do you think "a bunch of survivalist militia-type fanatics" would do to keep their kid from being legally kidnapped?

Entertaining? Sure, the same way reading about Mossad or KGB wet ops is entertaining...


Well, quite. All of which - including Tuck's denials (ie: "protecting his abusers") - would play right into Jane's expectations. It wouldn't be the first time she's had to prepare for a kid's abuser turning up with violent intent.

Now if she's prepared for that (which isn't beyond possibility, given her first step is usually to have Reggie go and scope the family out, and I have a feeling he's actually pretty good at the covert stuff himself Wink and he could find all that cult activity in the family, ironically enough), and gets her ducks into a row before alerting either Tucker or his parents about her plans, then...

Well, I was about to say they'd be up against all that Jane's money and influence - neither of which are inconsiderable - could buy, but an armed conflict is neither in her inclination or among her talents, so if Reggie warns her that that's a possible scenario I'd guess she'd escalate it to law-enforcement. I rather suspect the police and justice dept. and social services (among whom she already has friends and alumni) would rapidly get involved. Which wouldn't make Jane safe, but her priority would be protecting "her children" every time anyway.

Either way, is bad for Zathras. Smile Likely end result: Tuckers spring Tuck, leaving behind splattered remains of Jane and a few others and some local law enforcement officers, family goes on the run... for the remainder of their lives. Well, <shrug/> They seem to be prepared for that eventuality but it would still suck.

Pity people can't seem to talk about their problems, innit? Smile

More likely I think is Jane would act more carefully to begin with. She has the kid already safe in her care and therefore has time on her side. Perhaps slightly less than she thinks as Tucker thinks he's there for six weeks and she usually keeps kids for several months, but still - no need to go acting precipitously. She has time to let him learn that he's safe with her, and to let that effect its own change upon him, and time to evaluate the situation, with Diana and/or some other more specialised shrink-friend talking to Tuck a few times, probably without telling him they're evaluating for this sort of thing...

And that's probably as far as it'll get, because it'll become apparent that the source of Tucker's PTSD-style behaviour is not - to a significant degree - his own family, although that wouldn't be a quick discovery given how reticent and evasive he is, and if he mentions - or more likely implies without meaning to - how afraid he is of his mother's rages, that could go badly...

But if Jane's doubts aren't assuaged, her usual M.O. is to quietly find out as much as she can so by the time she confronts the parents in a social context (at which she, let's face it, kicks arse) she's pretty sure what's going on and it's a matter of handing them the proverbial noose; getting confirmation before springing the trap she's already laid. And the trap would be something that operates in the legal/economic domain and would be devastating. (ie: the only way out of it would - again - be to absent one's family from civilised society and start again in some third-world country.)

It wouldn't get that far because before that point I think her doubts would be assuaged, but it could be fun getting to that point... in another reality somewhere Smile


Rachel
Re: Part05 [message #2685] Tue, 26 October 2004 14:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Excuse me, but I'm going to have to speak ex cathedra for a minute. (ask a Catholic)

There is NO traceable connection between Bill Tucker and the group of people he came from. He has done his best since he left to erase any and all connections to them; he has in fact hired PI's to look for connections, then destroyed the trails they could find. He partially forged his Marine enlistment papers so that he would not be returned to those people under any circumstances.

Anyone looking will find that he arose apparently out of nowhere. IF they look hard enough. TRW did not. He's now got over a quarter-century of paper and references to back up his identity; that's basically as unassailable as modern-life identities get.

*gets off the throne, trips on the dais and falls out of view*


Ellen
nosig
Re: Part05 [message #2687] Tue, 26 October 2004 15:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babs Yerunkle  is currently offline Babs Yerunkle
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Ignoring the fuck-ups, let's look at where to go from here. This is, of course, speaking from the perspectives of those involved.

TUCK:
Tuck should be ragging on himself pretty hard. He has messed up big time. First, some successes:
* Alarm is cracked, or almost solved
* Laptop concealed, email functional, covert contact is established
* Resources are available (within 2 or 3 days) from Mike, as soon as the word is given
* Preliminary scouting of the area has been done

Failures:
* There is no secure site! There's no (safe) place to rest or sleep!
* Tuck is starving!
* The injuries are starting to rack up

Now, if I were Tuck's instructor for this survival exercise, I'd give very mixed marks. (Let's ignore the fact that I have zero real experience in this field, and that I don't even qualify as an armchair general. Ignoring that...) I'd advise:
* door wedges, something to block the door keyhole or lock, other techniques to secure the room during sleep.
* a good alarm clock (not too loud), perhaps an alarm watch
* sleeping in quick cat naps -- this minimizes the vulnerable period, and may also avoid the nightmares
* stealing bulk food and bringing it back to the secured room, consuming it there.

Okay, the whole catnap thing may be tough, given how hard Tuck sleeps, but it is a good skill for him to develop. It would let him sleep, AND reconoiter in the middle of the night. (He might not do that well with either, but he isn't doing so hot right now.) Hmm, it brings up all sorts of questions about how to cook and eat in his room -- he'd have to take soap dishes and other items from the bathroom (zip lock bags?). Throwing cans away in the bathroom trash is obviously a major blunder.

Anyway, Tuck is focused on survival, and at the moment, he's got to be giving himself a failing grade.

JANE
Well, Jane is rather blinded by her own preconceptions, isn't she? I can't see her questioning the "intelligence" she has on "Eugene Wallace." What she'd do instead is to try to dig up more info -- on the wrong person! She might even (eventually) go so far as to hire a PI to dig deeper.

With Valerie, I can't see her changing her approach drastically yet. She doesn't have the slightest idea how badly she has (ehem) fouled up this situation. She knows that Eugene is recalcitrant, rebelious, and rather accident prone. She's going to keep pushing until things get back on the course she has envisioned. Hey, when someone isn't bending properly, does a drill seargent change the training? Not bloody likeley. Jane is a bit more flexible, but she's still looking at the problem from the wrong direction, and she is completely misinterpreting what's going on. She actually thinks that she is on a path to gain Eugene's trust! Poor sap.

If anything, I see her being hard on herself. She needs to be more patient. She needs to have faith in her SYSTEM. It will work. It always works. I can see her maybe trying some of the following strategies:

Lock in, then back off -- She settles for slow gains (Valerie, wearing the proper dresses, behaving like a girl), then she backs off and gives the "girl" some room to feel comfortable for a day or two, before applying the screws again, and resting again.

or:

Temptation. In this case, she'd try to tempt Eugene into moving toward the expectant behavior, providing very desirable (but feminizing) rewards. Of course, her rewards will be appropriate for her own Victorian-era sensibilities -- tea parties, fancy clothing, companionship with other girls, certain "freedoms" (access to town), riding lessons, shopping trips. This is bound to be her most successful strategy, but she'll keep getting surprised when Tuck reacts as a modern girl, and not as a cowed delinquent who is delighted when forced to become a prissy doll.

or if her impatience drives her to stupidity:

Raise the stakes / apply the thumbscrews. Parading Valerie in public, taking photographs and other documents to blackmail the helpless student. (Of course, Tuck will see this as a declaration of war, and things will go straight to hell.)

Jane's technique is an awful lot like basic training, and I think both she and Tuck separately understand the psychology. You have to break the trainee, then build them back up in your own mold. (Good luck, bitch.)


Just random ideas about the psychology involved.

The story (so far) is great -- wonderful tension, excellent characterization, and the twist just keeps getting better and better. Hopefully, Tuck will begin to rally before he dies.
Re: Part05 [message #2688] Tue, 26 October 2004 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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A few thoughts on the previous three posts:

Rachel- Jane has exactly zero information on where to go looking for Eugene Tucker's history. What she gets when she goes looking for Eugene Wallace's history thinking it's Tuck's could be hilarious, tragic, or simply expose the mistake instantly, depending on how Ellen wants to play it. (I don't suppose it's impossible that Jane spots the error, but is worried about Tuck at this point and wants to follow up on the real family before she admits her mistake to Tuck.)

Ellen- Cool info on Bill, thanks.

Babs- Interesing assessment of Tuck's position. Assuming things carry over from the original version of the story, (which is far from a given), Tuck has both door wedges and a good watch already.
Also, welcome to the group. You are not allowed to let your participation here get in the way of more Jade/Whatley coming out, however. Very Happy (Anybody who hasn't read them, the first one is at both BigCloset & Sapphire's. Extremely good stuff, highly reccomended.)
Re: Part05 [message #2689] Tue, 26 October 2004 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Luthien  is currently offline Luthien
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Brooke wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 22:54


I just checked. Charlene mentioned that Val reacted badly to having been asleep when she (Charlene) walked in. Several paragraphs later, she states that she thinks Val is afraid of Jane.



k, I'm re-reading it, sorry for the mix-up.

Doragoon wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 04:14

Just to clarify, the reason I think tuck and Charlene's contact needs to be limited is because according to the program the big sister is supposed to be someone who the student can look up to and ask for help. Tuck is almost filling the role of big sister for Charlene. And Jane Should be realizing after tuck covered up for Charlene's attack at the stables and comforted her when she was crying, that tuck isn't mean or heartless. ...

Charlene just wasn't ready to have a little sister.
...the only response I have right now is that Jane is usually better with children than this. Jane's more of a Dobson than a Nickerson.



good point(s), I think that's pretty much true.

[Updated on: Tue, 26 October 2004 17:04]

Re: Part05 [message #2690] Tue, 26 October 2004 19:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Luthien wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 13:59

Brooke wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 22:54


I just checked. Charlene mentioned that Val reacted badly to having been asleep when she (Charlene) walked in. Several paragraphs later, she states that she thinks Val is afraid of Jane.



k, I'm re-reading it, sorry for the mix-up.


Not a problem. I got suspiciuous when I read the chapter and went over that section very carefully. And spotted that little "ommission"
Re: Part05 [message #2691] Tue, 26 October 2004 21:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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(not done taking notes, but have a quick comment)

Quote:

but she'll keep getting surprised when Tuck reacts as a modern girl, and not as a cowed delinquent who is delighted when forced to become a prissy doll.


Jane doesn't care what normal modern women do. Jane might let tuck behave like a more modern girl after she has "respect for the rules of the institution in which you find yourself".

Tuck is not there to learn how women act now, or to learn to be a woman. Tuck is there to curb disciplin problems, and when it comes to disciplin, the mannors and everything she teaches are the goal. She will demand tuck keep it up until they are second nature.

It's not too much to ask. Jane never expects to much, never more than the child's cooperation (submission). I'd say Tuck's parents require more submission than Jane is asking for.
Re: Part05 [message #2692] Tue, 26 October 2004 22:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babs Yerunkle  is currently offline Babs Yerunkle
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Doragoon wrote on Tue, 26 October 2004 18:52


Tuck is not there to learn how women act now, or to learn to be a woman. Tuck is there to curb disciplin problems, and when it comes to discipline, the mannors and everything she teaches are the goal. She will demand tuck keep it up until they are second nature.


Yeah, and I can believe this part will work. Tuck will overtly comply, without swallowing the deeper elements that are the key to the training. Still, it will be enough to satisfy the letter of the law, while staying light years away from the spirit.

Quote:

Jane doesn't care what normal modern women do. Jane might let tuck behave like a more modern girl after she has "respect for the rules of the institution in which you find yourself".


Good point. Everyone has to know that petticoats have no place in modern attire.

Quote:

She will demand tuck keep it up until they are second nature.

It's not too much to ask. Jane never expects to much, never more than the child's cooperation (submission). I'd say Tuck's parents require more submission than Jane is asking for.


Yeah, but... I guess the post at the very top of this thread was the most insightful. It's all about trust. Tuck trusts his parents (although not enough to reveal Valerie). Jane, after the whole drugging/manipulation issue, is definitely NOT trusted, and Tuck doesn't have a real good history of giving in to threats. (WARNING: Understatement compensators overloading!)

Hmmm, I'm trying to see how this can get back onto the track of Version 1. As people have mentioned elsewhere, maybe when Tuck figures out about the scope of the conspiracy through the whole salon thing. Or maybe he sees through Charlene. (For some reason, that last idea doesn't feel right.) I see him forging more of a contractual partnership (hmmm, am I remembering Version 1 ?) with Jane, once he has something against her to negotiate with. But what...?

Is there anything Mike can research with computer connections?
Re: Part05 [message #2693] Tue, 26 October 2004 22:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Janet  is currently offline Janet
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karen_page wrote on Sun, 24 October 2004 09:02

{snip}

And isn't it a relief that the alarm wasn't something like 4747 as the order would never be found as the grease would be on both numbers!

If you work it out, there are only so many combinations of four digits which contain only two numbers; and some of those can be eliminated by determining how much grease is on the two digits.

If the distribution is equal (two each of two numbers), there are only six combinations (eg. 4477, 7744, 4747, 7474, 4774, 7447). It wouldn't take long to figure out which works, even if the system has a three try time out.


Janet

All that glitters is not Iron Pyrite
Re: Part05 [message #2694] Wed, 27 October 2004 12:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Babs Yerunkle wrote on Wed, 27 October 2004 00:29

Hmmm, I'm trying to see how this can get back onto the track of Version 1. As people have mentioned elsewhere, maybe when Tuck figures out about the scope of the conspiracy through the whole salon thing. Or maybe he sees through Charlene. (For some reason, that last idea doesn't feel right.) I see him forging more of a contractual partnership (hmmm, am I remembering Version 1 ?) with Jane, once he has something against her to negotiate with. But what...?

I think that it will track back around the salon visit. From what I could deduce, Ellen gave Sandy the flu in order to give more time for the pressure to build up before the visit -- as an extra incentive for Tuck to think seriously about escaping. I guess that Val's escape might be a bit longer too, in order to make Jane sweat a while, but eventually Charlene (and some food in the belly) will be the key for calming Tu-Val down. That Libretto is a mighty incentive too...

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Part05 [message #2695] Wed, 27 October 2004 16:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Sir Lee wrote on Wed, 27 October 2004 09:46

That Libretto is a mighty incentive too...

That's something to remember. Tuck thinks his parents picked this place, and Tuck's going to assume they did some cheking on it before they sent Tuck there. Possibly even a lot of research. That might affect Tuck's thinking.

Re: Part05 [message #2696] Wed, 27 October 2004 22:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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I sense a dichotomy in which way the readers want this version of Tucky Seasons to go - One in which Jane in standard Seasons format quickly works out why her system isn't working and moves to correct it (she isn't stupid, but assumptions are based upon pre-arrival reports which were incorrect), or the other where Jane is always a step behind Tuck and never really discover Tuck's real nature and therefore the plot goes on with continual misinterpretations of each other's (Season's house vs. Tuck) moves and intentions. For comedy, the latter might work best. However, since Jane isn't really stupid, a way to explain why she's behind in reacting to Tuck's actions might be in order.

BTW, I was new to Ellen's site in late April, and not having read the first version of Tucky Seasons, there has been enough written in threads of the last few chapters to figure that Jane has the wrong Eugene - so I don't consider myself the one spoiling it for newcomers Mad I'm one of those who don't want to be told the final score before I got to watch a taped delay of a ball game, or whodunnit in a mystery!! Evil or Very Mad

There might be an interesting insight of what's in Jane's head with respect to Tuck if her file on Eugene is revealed while conversing with Art or Darla. Does it include behaviour which is reinforced by Tuck? Or is there enough suspicion that Tuck doesn't match the profiled personality in front of her? This was how Ken's and Darryl's personalities in canon Seasons were figured out.

Hmmm...let's see the possibilities in Jane's file on the "other" Eugene:
-Academically does OK in Math and Science, B+ student. Tuck would blow this guy away
-Academically does poorly in English and poor verbal skills.
-Reads comics all day when not doing schoolwork
-Performed kitchen duty as punishment for instigating lunchroom food fights in school.Therefore, if Tuck did any cooking or cleaning in kitchen, it wouldn't be a surprised to Jane of some apparent skill there
-Suspended for getting caught trying to get into school administration computers (got caught because the idiot used his own login id). Obviously Tuck wouldn't be so stupid, but Jane doesn't know that
-Caught trying to buy liquor wearing a bad disguise to look older and carrying a false ID. This'll give Jane a possible reason why Eugene appears too comfortable role playing in skirts?
-Caught with friends for costly pranks which included vandalizing the girls' restrooms (they'd destroyed all the hygiene dispensing equipment). This prompted "other" Eugene's mother to make the decision to send Eugene to Seasons House in a deal with the school to not press criminal charges on the boy.
So if Jane had said to Tuck in initial meetings:
a. He was foolish to throw things in school lunchroom
b. Hacking into school computers was lacking in honor
c. Pranking and destroying school property was criminal

Tuck couldn't outright deny her info not given the details....i.e. similar crimes, wrong person. Which reinforces how Jane wrongly perceives Tuck's personality. Surprised
As for those who think Art will help...- the timeline of when this story branched off from canon Tuck, seems about late April/ early May, Tuck was able to evade Sheila's digging in his head for around a month. Unless Tuck is planning anime style seppuku, Art (or the shrink that worked on Michael in a Losing Season) may not be much help...since Tuck plans on hanging around six weeks or less.

Ooh! Ooh! Question for the thread!
Question In Seasons, I think Tuck is very Tuck, and Valerie is still a mask for Tuck. I didn't sense the Valerie persona becoming inherent in Tuck (canon Tuck) until summer. So the question is do any of you believe that Valerie is fully inherent within Tuck at this point in Seasons and why?

Back to hide in the shadows before I get darted ... Smug
Re: Part05 [message #2697] Thu, 28 October 2004 00:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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lurker wrote on Wed, 27 October 2004 19:15

Question In Seasons, I think Tuck is very Tuck, and Valerie is still a mask for Tuck. I didn't sense the Valerie persona becoming inherent in Tuck (canon Tuck) until summer. So the question is do any of you believe that Valerie is fully inherent within Tuck at this point in Seasons and why?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this question. I think, in some ways, we haven't seen Valerie yet at Seasons house. We have Tuck, as opposed to Eugene or Valerie, dealing with an ugly situation as best as Tuck can. The persona we know as Valerie hasn't really shown up yet, even in the uncompletely developed form we knew her in around May in the main storyline.
For what it's worth, I think this is the chapter where we lost any sense of continuity with the original verion. So, I don't know what we will see- but what I remember from the original version keeps tripping me up anyway.
lurker wrote on Wed, 27 October 2004 19:15

Back to hide in the shadows before I get darted ... Smug

:Phutt!: Oh no you don't! Not that I've been offically deputized or anything, but if Ellen wants something around here, most of the people do what they can to give it to her. Twisted Evil
Re: Part05 [message #2698] Thu, 28 October 2004 06:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
brudin  is currently offline brudin
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good work lurker!

Valerie begin appear later (and i dont say when, to give ya some surprise). Twisted Evil


Brudin, palanain de Moradin.
(Moradin's paladwarf, cool joke in french Wink )
Re: Part05 [message #2700] Thu, 28 October 2004 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

I think that many readers see Jane as a somewhat sympathetic character -- someone who wants the best for Tuck, but with her own definition of "best." I have a somewhat different view of Jane. I think she's smart in her own way but is terribly unobservant and inflexible.



Have you read the Tigger stories? becouse THAT is what we base our feelings off of when we say she is observent and compasionate.

Though i will agree that this last chapter of tuck season has presented a VASTLY differant version of Jane.
Re: Part05 [message #2702] Thu, 28 October 2004 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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martenkemp wrote on Thu, 28 October 2004 15:07

No, I haven't read the Tigger stories. I'm basing my estimation of Jane on what I've read in the current version of Seasons.

I did read Tuck Squared, which featured a different Jane.


You need to read the Seasons stories. You really do.

http://www.tigger-n-brandy.com/tigg_house/Janehome.html
Re: Part05 [message #2703] Thu, 28 October 2004 22:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cate
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This goes back a little way in the thread. There seems to be the general consensus that if Jane tries to take Tuck away from his family, that the Tuckers first response would be violence. I am a bit puzzled about why that would be the likely response.

Yes, Jane has influential backers. But, judges, businessmen, politicians, etc. are fickle. I think Bill would realize this, and bring appropriate pressure to bear on these connections. He is supposed to be a computer wizard on an equal, or higher level than Tuck. He surely could find dirt on these people that would back them away from Jane in a heartbeat. Hell, if needs be, he could invent plausible dirt.

Being a politician tied to an operation like Jane's in the press would spell career death. A well placed media story with vague hints that something like her school exists with possible ties to state or local politicos, would have them running for cover like roaches when the lights come on. I doubt business types would hold fast much longer.

I, also, seem to recall that Uncle Lanier has some influential ties. Isn't he involved with private sector social causes?

The Tuckers would have lots of non-violent options to exhaust.

Of course, if those measures were unsuccessful, I could see Bill standing back for a short period [say 48-72 hours] while Sarah goes "Josef Mengele" on Aunt Jane.

Just a thought.

[Updated on: Thu, 28 October 2004 22:44]

Re: Part05 [message #2704] Fri, 29 October 2004 00:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babs Yerunkle  is currently offline Babs Yerunkle
Messages: 5
Registered: October 2004
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I wrote this

Jane's technique is an awful lot like basic training, and I think both she and Tuck separately understand the psychology. You have to break the trainee, then build them back up in your own mold. (Good luck, bitch.)


Okay, I was definitely too strong, and rather rude. As Jane would point out, the vulgarity doesn't make my argument any more reasonable.

Except... I think it does. My vulgarity helps point out that, as high-minded as Jane acts (and sees herself), the view others have of her may be drastically different.

Yeah, I have read some of the Tigger stories. Jane is wonderfully wise and understanding in them.

Allow me to recommend "The Iron Dream" by Norman Spinrad, writing as Adolf Hitler. Yep. The concept is that (in an alternate universe) Hitler left Germany after the Great War and parlayed his talent for art into becoming a successful science fiction illustrator, and then an author. _The_Iron_Dream_ is Hitler's grand hero come to life, saving the last of the pure-blood humans from the encroaching hoards of mutated genetic vermin. But as the book progresses, the reader is forced to acknowledge that the "heroic" actions of our protagonist are more and more horrific. The writer (Spinrad) never describes the hero, Ferric Jagger, as anything other than the Savior of Humanity, but the audience is forced to contract action against presentation. It's a brilliant book.

In a similar fashion, in many stories, Jane is presented by the author as someone who acts drastically, but with loving kindness and wisdom.

There are other ways to view her actions, and Tuck is (for now) solidly in the "other" camp. Consider that she has:

-- Drugged him
-- Constantly lied and misled him (the hair-dye shampoo, the "spontaneous" plan for petticoat discipline, etc.)
-- Attempted interrogation (trying to learn more of his crimes)
-- Stolen his property (notably his clothes and other arrival items)
-- Blackmailed him (obey my whim or immediately go to jail)
-- Performed repeated acts of humiliation
-- Physically abused him (arguable, but the hair dye and corset could possibly be placed in this category)

Okay, some of this stuff is done in other places, too. Notably, the boot camp Tuck was supposed to arrive at. I'm not excusing them, I'm just pointing out what she is guilty of. Does Jane have a right to do this? Legally, no. Morally... Do the ends justify the means? Has she saved many boys from a downward spiral? Yes.

Does Tuck have reason to fear/hate/loathe her? Yes, plenty.

Is Jane a wise and benevolant mentor, or a sadistic dominatrix bitch? Well, it depends on the beholder, doesn't it? She certainly has achieved benevolant results. She's also (Version 1) gloated to herself about how she really does enjoy the whole molding process.

Personally, I think she's both. She's an arrogant autocrat playing by her own set of rules, who has benevolantly remolded plenty of troubled lives. But if I was on a real-life jury (not in a story) and had to decide on her guilt, I'd vote to convict.

Of course, in front of a real-life jury, Tuck would have plenty to answer for, too, which is why he's in this mess, isn't it?
Re: Part05 [message #2705] Fri, 29 October 2004 03:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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I wasn't saying that Jane was a perfect saint, but just that she's not the jane being portrayed here. There are a bunch of problems which i'll be posting in one big post everntualy.

But tuck is acting like this is life or death. i'm not exactly sure why he's freaking out so much. they drugged him once, nothing happened but they took his clothes. he suspects a camera and that they are drugging him, and yet, doesn't use the camera against them, faking going to sleep after a meal to see if they try anything.

every time jane or anyone offers to be nice, he suspects them of trying to set him up, even though that's NEVER happened. Jane has been strict, yes, but less so than a drill instructor and more caring and sympathetic too. He fears jane will physicly abuse him even though nothing of the kind has even been threatened!

Tuck's not in his right mind, and he's never that good at reading people, but he's still acting a LOT more freaky than he should be.
Re: Part05 [message #2707] Fri, 29 October 2004 16:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
Messages: 197
Registered: May 2004
Senior Member
Parsing what Doragoon wrote on Fri, 29 October 2004 00:56

....But tuck is acting like this is life or death. i'm not exactly sure why he's freaking out so much. they drugged him once, nothing happened but they took his clothes.

.... He fears jane will physicly abuse him even though nothing of the kind has even been threatened!

Tuck's not in his right mind, and he's never that good at reading people, but he's still acting a LOT more freaky than he should be.


I'm not sure if Tuck treating this as life or death, but I will agree he is not in his right mind due to self induced sleep deprivation. Tuck is sometimes bratty to those in authority and his lack of sleep has clouded his judgement as how far he should be going. On the otherhand, he has a presence of mind to try to reconcile problems as in getting material to fix the bannister, accepting blame for pushing Charline into manure pile - which give Jane the feeling Tuck is salvageable.

Tuck is by nature paranoid. The fact that he insists he name his dolly Boudicca (twice so far) indicates he's familiar with Roman history and military tactics (ironically, I understand Boudicca eventually died by poison to prevent capture by the Romans). I recall in the main storyline that while getting prepared for the annual family camping trip, he purchased military manuals for light reading at the surplus store.
My point is that he's performing the tactic of establishing a secure camp. He's spending all his nightly clandestine efforts in securing his situation so he can control his environment. It's not so much fear that Jane will physically abuse him, in fact, I think he expecting some abuse and realizes the petticoat discipline is bulk of the abuse - everything else is embellishment. And, he did communicate to Mike that he thinks he can last six weeks - he just needs to set up his personal safety valves (secure source of food, escape routes from the house, and in/out communications) before he settles in to his perceived future course of events.
Re: Part05 [message #2708] Fri, 29 October 2004 16:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babs Yerunkle  is currently offline Babs Yerunkle
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Doragoon wrote on Fri, 29 October 2004 00:56

....But tuck is acting like this is life or death. i'm not exactly sure why he's freaking out so much. they drugged him once, nothing happened but they took his clothes.

.... He fears jane will physicly abuse him even though nothing of the kind has even been threatened!


lurker wrote on Fri, 29 October 2004 13:07


It's not so much fear that Jane will physically abuse him, in fact, I think he expecting some abuse and realizes the petticoat discipline is bulk of the abuse - everything else is embellishment.


I think this group is prone to a large suspension of disbelief when it comes to forced feminization. It's just by our very nature, and the nature of some of the stories we read.

For that matter, TUCK has previously experienced forced fiminization (I refer you to Tuck, chapter 1).

Let's take a different tack, and one that may be offensive to many. Some other woman (let's call her "Joan"), decided that slave-discipline is the way to get uncooperative boys to behave. After drugging them, she trick/forces them to bathe in chemicals that will turn their skin a rich ebony. Then she forces them to wear (mock) manacles and slave collars, and to dress like plantation slaves, while she cracks the whip theatrically over their head (never giving them an actual taste of the lash). It's all for the finest reasons, to help these boys back into the right path.

Points: We don't know what the drugs were, or when they might be applied again. We don't know all of what she might do to the helpless victims who are unconcious. We don't know how far she plans to go with this "game."

Now: Is Joan someone who should be treated with a tolerant smile and playing along? Is she a psycho madwoman who should be treated with kid gloves until you can escape this madhouse? Is the answer somewhere in between?

I suggest that the answer lies in the eyes of the beholder. The truth is, we don't have enough info. If it were real-life and happening to me, I would be inclined to favor the "psycho madwoman" theory. For Tuck, someone with a healthy (and historically justified) paranoia, I don't think he's overreacting.
Re: Part05 [message #2709] Fri, 29 October 2004 20:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
Messages: 197
Registered: May 2004
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Babs Yerunkle wrote on Fri, 29 October 2004 13:49


lurker wrote on Fri, 29 October 2004 13:07


It's not so much fear that Jane will physically abuse him, in fact, I think he expecting some abuse and realizes the petticoat discipline is bulk of the abuse - everything else is embellishment.

I think this group is prone to a large suspension of disbelief when it comes to forced feminization. It's just by our very nature, and the nature of some of the stories we read.

Referring to my quote above, I think Tuck at day 5 still had expectations of a boot camp style discipline at Seasons House and is just waiting for such a shoe to drop. Why else is he still nervous when Jane touches him?
If you're a SciFi fan, large suspensions of disbelief are required to effect the story - especially when violation of known laws of physics occur. Did anyone ever try to calculate the size of the computer and sensors needed to just deal with the memory buffer to locate all the atoms for a dematerializer/rematerializer transporter as in "The Fly" movie, or even Star Trek type transporter system in a future about 200 years from now?
So, when it comes to forced feminization, we as readers let it go for the effect of the story. However, each of us have different moral bars of how harsh this should be, and as readers we could decide not to read the story. For me, Joel Lawrence's version was a difficult read - I didn't like it. Tigger and Brandy's version made it enjoyable. I guess it's all in the presentation...
Babs Yerunkle wrote on Fri, 29 October 2004 13:49


For that matter, TUCK has previously experienced forced fiminization (I refer you to Tuck, chapter 1).


I didn't view the initial cross-dressing in Tuck as forced, rather, bargained to keep Debbie's affection. For Tuck, this was just a Halloween costume! Maybe Ellen could clarify whether this was coercion against Tuck's will or Tuck looking for a return on his in"vestment". Razz
Babs Yerunkle wrote on Fri, 29 October 2004 13:49


If it were real-life and happening to me, I would be inclined to favor the "psycho madwoman" theory. For Tuck, someone with a healthy (and historically justified) paranoia, I don't think he's overreacting.


If it were real life, Jane Thompson would be in jail. Rachel Greenham's perspective of the aftermath of a debacle at Seasons House in Tuck^^2 would be too mild in reality.

BTW - I enjoy your Whateley Academies... Cool
Re: Part05 [message #2710] Fri, 29 October 2004 23:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cate
Messages: 78
Registered: September 2002
Member
There seems to be an underlying thread that goes "Well, if you read the canonical Seasons, Jane is really...". And, this seems to be seeping over into our judgements about Tuck's responses. Tuck didn't read an Seasons stories. Tuck has no reason to temper hir reactions based on what happened in those stories. To the best of my knowledge Tucker has never read ANY TG fiction.

Jane's actions exist in a vacuum for all the characters in Tuck Seasons. To an outside observer pulled in the way Tuck has been, Jane's behavior says only one thing: "This woman is a grade-A wack job!" Taking into account Tuck's upbringing, hir behavior has seemed pretty rational; and hir responses seem fairly measured.
Re: Part05 [message #2711] Sat, 30 October 2004 06:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Babs Yerunkle wrote on Fri, 29 October 2004 21:49

I think this group is prone to a large suspension of disbelief when it comes to forced feminization. It's just by our very nature, and the nature of some of the stories we read.

Not everyone in this group actually does feel that way.

Babs Yerunkle wrote on Fri, 29 October 2004 21:49

For that matter, TUCK has previously experienced forced fiminization (I refer you to Tuck, chapter 1).

Actually, no. He's felt coerced by situations before, but never by a specific person 'merely on a whim'. Re-donning a disguise to escape the Wrath Of [Debbie's] Mom somehow doesn't fit into my definition of coercion, since the ones 'suggesting' Tucker do this are not the ones that would inflict the punishment.
He's done it for money, vague promises of sexual favors, to get or stay out of trouble, because someone asked (or begged), not to screw up previous perceptions of apparent gender, and for fun; he's never been told "put on girl's clothes or else I'LL hurt you."


Ellen
nosig

Re: Part05 [message #2712] Sat, 30 October 2004 06:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Actually, I'm slightly wrong.
There is one incident in the main series, in which someone attempts to coerce Tucker into wearing women's clothes. Can anyone else find it? *grins*
I'll give you two clues: it's fairly recent, and Tucker declines.


Ellen
nosig

Re: Part05 [message #2715] Sun, 31 October 2004 01:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
Messages: 589
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Sat, 30 October 2004 03:23

Babs Yerunkle wrote on Fri, 29 October 2004 21:49

I think this group is prone to a large suspension of disbelief when it comes to forced feminization. It's just by our very nature, and the nature of some of the stories we read.

Not everyone in this group actually does feel that way.

I don't think this group is necessarly prone to a large suspension of disbelief in regards to forced feminization. Lord knows most of the stories I've seen are utterly ridiculous. I think a large portion of this group may be very ready to suspend disbelief in regards to the Aunt Jane stories specifically, however. A writer is traditionally allowed one outrageous element, or bizzare coincidince, or whatever. Tigger & crew have put in a lot of work making the Aunt Jane stories work and hold together, so when I encounter an Aunt Jane story I'm ready going in to accept that the underlying premise is going to work.
I'm even more likely to assume it in this story, because I've read the original. I have very little (but not quite NO) reason to believe it will work in this version. But that doesn't keep me from assuming it will until proven otherwise.
Re: Part05 [message #2720] Tue, 02 November 2004 02:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babs Yerunkle  is currently offline Babs Yerunkle
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Nov 1 (on the Barking Duck notes page)

Not helped by the fact that some people have widely diverging opinions, which forces me to rely on my own judgement but leaves a feeling that I'm not pleasing anyone.


Well, despite my loud-mouthed opinions here on the discussion board, I'm pretty immensely pleased by how seasons is going. Heck, let's see, we have great drama, wonderful tension, characters that we can really believe in and that we care deeply for. This thing has gotten us so involved that we're psychoanalyzing your darned literary creations (or interpretations, in the case of Jane). And a lot of us have pretty loud opinions about what we think the characters might do, or should do, or maybe could do. To put those in context...

I spoke aloud, saying "You idiot!" when Boromir tried to take the ring. I nearly wept in frustration when Honor Harrington's love, Paul Tankersley, stepped onto the dueling field. I was engraged, when (soon to be) Gulliver Foyle was abandoned in deep space, to a slow death of suffocation.

These were all mistakes -- fatal ones, usually. They were grand mistakes by the characters, needed to drive the story where it needed to go. For all of our hollering in this forum, I think most of us are shouting the equivalent to, "Don't take the ring, Boromir!"

Despite our noises, it's still a gripping story. Don't think that you aren't pleasing us.
Re: Part05 [message #2722] Tue, 02 November 2004 03:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
Messages: 197
Registered: May 2004
Senior Member
Ellen's Tuck Notes of 01 November 2004

Vis-a-vis Seasons, part 6 is being written slowly (always too slowly), and utilizing as much of the commentary from the discussion board as I can keep in my little brain. Not helped by the fact that some people have widely diverging opinions, which forces me to rely on my own judgement but leaves a feeling that I'm not pleasing anyone.
Ah well... this is one of the reasons I take the title of 'Bitch'; I am therefore excused from having to 'be nice' and accommodate everyone's wishes at once. *makes crazy noises*


Way to go "BITCH"!! Laughing

From Rick Nelson's song Garden Party:
But it's all right now, i learned my lesson well.
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself


This song wouldn't be in Tuck's CD collection - but I bet Sarah and Bill has the LP!

But I do agree with Babs - Don't think you aren't pleasing us Smile

Re: Part05 [message #2725] Wed, 03 November 2004 06:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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I think I've decided that Jane isn't actually that far off from the Jane of Tigger's stories, _IF_ she's talking about giving up on Charlene. The biggest problems that we had with Jane's character were the things in chapter 5 when she seemed to be overreacting to tuck.

I think Jane is stressed and stuff from having to deal with Charlene, and is trying to do her best with tuck without having a good big sis. That being true the portrayal is pretty good.

Jane has only had tuck for a couple days, and since Jane wants to get rid of Charlene, not tuck, there's still hope of Jane figuring things out.
Re: Part05 [message #2726] Wed, 03 November 2004 07:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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martenkemp wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 06:24

Tuck was predisposed to view Jane an ogre but she hasn't given him any reason to challenge that image.


Steve Jackson wrote back in 1982

The ultimate development of the tank-type weapon, though was the cybernetic attack vehicle. The original tanks had terrorized unsophisticated infantry. The cybertanks terrorized EVERYONE, and with good reason. They were bigger (up to 50 meters), faster (hovercraft models proved too vulnerable, but atomic-powered treads moved standard units at 45 kph or better) and more heavily armed (some had firepower equal to an armor COMPANY). And two to three METERS of BPC armor made them nearly unstoppable. What made the cybertank horrifying, though was its literal inhumanity. No crew was carried; each unit was wholly computer-controlled. Although true mechanical intelligence had existed as early as 2010, and fully automated factories and military installations were in wide use by the middle of the century, the cybertanks were the earliest independent mobile units - the first true war "robots".
Once the first cybertanks had proved their worth, the development was rapid. The great war machines aroused a terrified sort of fascination. Human warriors devoutly hoped never to confront them, and preferred to keep a respectful distance - like several kilometers - even from friendly ones. They were just too BIG.
One fact, more than anything, points up the feeling that developed toward the cybertank. Unlike other war vehicles, they were never called "she". Friendly units of the speaker's acquaintance were "he"; others were "it". And the term "cybertank" was rarely used. People had another name for the big war machines - one drawn from the early Combine units and, before that, from dark myth...


And now, back to the regularly scheduled discussion... *grins*


Ellen
nosig

Re: Part05 [message #2727] Wed, 03 November 2004 11:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Janet  is currently offline Janet
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 06:00

{snip}
And now, back to the regularly scheduled discussion... *grins*


*chuckles* All the more reason to "keep a respectful distance - like several kilometers..."
Tuck surely wants to get further away than that. =)


Janet

All that glitters is not Iron Pyrite
Re: Part05 [message #2728] Thu, 04 November 2004 05:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
brudin  is currently offline brudin
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ho yeah, Cool i remember how much fun was this game. Twisted Evil


Brudin, palanain de Moradin.
(Moradin's paladwarf, cool joke in french Wink )
Re: Part05 [message #2739] Sat, 06 November 2004 01:01 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
stripes  is currently offline stripes
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I should first say that I really like both Tuck storylines, so this shouldn't be taken as too much of a complaint.

That said, I think Jane's not really doing a very good job. She's not paying attention to Tuck. Particularly worrying is how she hasn't noticed that he isn't eating. She has surely encountered hunger strikes before, with her constant table manners corrections; she should be on the lookout for such things. And she hasn't noticed that when the food goes to Tuck's room, the plate always comes back empty, but for some reason he always goes into the bathroom and covers the mirrors to eat? Or that somehow he keeps finding excuses not to eat? Even if she thinks it's girlish anorexia, she should worry - it'll be aggravated by stress, and a hospital run would be a Bad Thing. In fact, if she has cameras in the bathrooms (Tuck thinks so, but who knows?) she probably caught him puking up various meals. Or noticed all the toweling.

Jane also hasn't noticed that Tuck's reactions are all wrong - he doesn't mind girl clothes, just *stupid* girl clothes (any why does Jane have all those pedo outfits anyway? That's got to be making Tuck awful nervous - just why does Jane enjoy having girls dressed like sexy six-year-olds around? Is Tuck in danger of being molested? Maybe he doesn't think women do that...). But she or Marie don't seem to have paid much attention to the fact that Tuck is already comfortable doing his own makeup.

I think Charlene is behaving just the way she's expected to behave at this point - she knows how to make Jane happy, she just needs to learn to keep her temper. The big sister isn't supposed to be perfect yet (perhaps like a real big sister? Tuck's was pretty rough, so this probably feels homey)

I don't think Jane is handling Tuck right, no matter who she thinks he is. In particular, Tuck has no reason to think he can control his treatment. So far he's seen abuse and punishment and *no* gentle treatment (unless you count being allowed to stand instead of sit when injured, and allowed to remain on the ground after collapsing). So if he wants to be treated better, from what he's experienced from Jane, his only hope is to get hurt and hope this makes her let up on him slightly. As was mentioned earlier, the closest Jane came to saying anything nice to him (ever, from what I remember) was a barbed compliment comparing him unfavorably to Charlene, at something he has no interest in being good at (leaving aside Tuck's feeling that he is already good at it; Jane doesn't know about that). So why should he feel that if he behaves he will be treated better? "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar", if you will. So why is Jane behaving this way? Even *I* know you have to let beginning students know you have a good side and that they can get on it by behaving. My only guess is that Tuck is very good at making her lose her temper, which he mostly does by doing things that point out the crack-headedness of her program (at least as she explains it to her students).

To make it worse, when Jane realizes just how terrified Tuck is, she sees it as an opportunity to put more pressure on Tuck. What is needed is not to raise the pressure; Tuck is clearly backed into a corner and fighting for his life (look at that panicked scramble Jane watched; look at the violent reaction to being touched; look at his disregard for humiliation; look at how much physical damage he's taken already). What is needed is to lower the wall - make it easier to do what she asks. Overlook a rude response to a stupid comment after Tuck falls down some stairs. Give him another afternoon off - the last one worked (increased the bond with Charlene, got Tuck in better shape, while making him feel no less feminine).

If Jane is paying attention, Tuck's solidarity with Charlene (fights aside; it should be becoming clear that Tuck is used to a life full of violence and abuse) should be a great handle. She knows about three events: Tuck took the punishment to (try to) protect Charlene, Tuck comforted Charlene when Jane's cruel laughter sent Charlene to her room in tears (which Jane couldn't stoop to apologize for in person), and Tuck slept with Charlene (and if there are sound bugs in the rooms Jane can know Tuck isn't about to trust her or Marie). Jane could now work to build Tuck's bond with Charlene in a fighting-the-oppressor-together sort of way, drawing Tuck into her scheme that way.

Overall, my impression is that Jane is too handicapped by her own fetish, for strict discipline and frankly weird girlish customs, to do a credible job straightening out a kid as tightly wound as Tuck. Now either she can get her head straight (possibly with Diana's help?), or, hmm, a possible future timeline:

Jane sees Tuck act up, as usual; she tightens the screws: she takes Tuck to the hair salon to get his hair dyed a humiliating color. Tuck bolts, talks to enough locals to realize that he's got a knife to Jane's ribs (perhaps it's better if he never realizes she's got nothing on him - there are a hell of a lot of people he could go to and explain, with documentary physical evidence, that Jane forced him to dress up like that - how humiliating can a thing not of your own choosing be?) and comes back in hopes of a laptop knowing that he can apply pressure to Jane if needed. Jane realizes that this kid is a little different but can behave if treated well, the story continues...


Maybe I'm just too laid-back for the Tuck stories.

Allover
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