Home » Tuck Talk » Chapter by Chapter » Chapter 106 + 107
Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2749] Sun, 07 November 2004 10:32 Go to next message
karen_page  is currently offline karen_page
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Wow, Tucker awake and quite a novel way to wake him up.

I thought it was quite interesting the amount of paranoia. People paranoid at the dance. All the tucks friends worried that they will be next. The paranoia of Tucks family at the two cheerleaders turning up.

Interlaced throughout where some interesting things which I’m not sure where they are going. The computer intrusion is a good example. Is somebody systematically trying to get Dobson to loose his job?

Debbies G&T idea is fleshed out a bit more but I still can’t see where this is going.

Lastly what is Susan planning? The cops are arresting the people involved. Is she planning a preventive strike against the secondary people involved such as the cheerleaders?



Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2750] Sun, 07 November 2004 11:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Janet  is currently offline Janet
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karen_page wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 08:32

Wow, Tucker awake and quite a novel way to wake him up.

I thought it was quite interesting the amount of paranoia. People paranoid at the dance. All the tucks friends worried that they will be next. The paranoia of Tucks family at the two cheerleaders turning up.
Well, even paranoids have enemies. Mike's comment on that issue is quite succinct.

And, there is sufficient evidence that there is a risk.
Quote:

Interlaced throughout where some interesting things which I’m not sure where they are going. The computer intrusion is a good example. Is somebody systematically trying to get Dobson to loose his job?
Hard to say, especially with Ellen as the author. *grins*
It's my opinion, though, that the hack on the school is not directly related.


Janet

All that glitters is not Iron Pyrite
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2751] Sun, 07 November 2004 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Janet  is currently offline Janet
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Wow! Two chapters at once...

And so much in them. Gonna take some time to sort through it all.

Hope no one ODs on this much Tuck in one sitting... =)


Janet

All that glitters is not Iron Pyrite
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2752] Sun, 07 November 2004 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yellow  is currently offline yellow
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<question deleted>

[Updated on: Sun, 07 November 2004 11:43]

Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2753] Sun, 07 November 2004 12:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
brudin  is currently offline brudin
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I dont know you, but i am happy to see him awake.

and now time to payback! Twisted Evil


Brudin, palanain de Moradin.
(Moradin's paladwarf, cool joke in french Wink )
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2754] Sun, 07 November 2004 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike the Younger  is currently offline Mike the Younger
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Janet wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 10:31

Wow! Two chapters at once...


Hope no one ODs on this much Tuck in one sitting... =)



OD on Tuck? Not possible. On the gripping hand, missing work...

I rember when I first discovered this series creating a 4 day weekend for myself and reading Tuck for 18 hours each day just to get caught up
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2755] Sun, 07 November 2004 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike the Younger  is currently offline Mike the Younger
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Meanwhile, back at the hospital...

Bill's eye caught something, and he glanced over at Mike. Mike
nodded and tapped at the jacket he was wearing. *Good man,* Bill nodded
back.


Would that be a jacket designed especially to allow easy access to a pistol?

Or am I just being paranoid?
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2756] Sun, 07 November 2004 14:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Janet  is currently offline Janet
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Mike the Younger wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 11:36

Meanwhile, back at the hospital...

Bill's eye caught something, and he glanced over at Mike. Mike
nodded and tapped at the jacket he was wearing. *Good man,* Bill nodded
back.


Would that be a jacket designed especially to allow easy access to a pistol?

Or am I just being paranoid?
I don't think that it's a specially designed jacket.

Mike was just reassuring Bill that he was appropriately armed, and ready to use force if needed.

At least, that's what I understand wearing the jacket means.


Janet

All that glitters is not Iron Pyrite
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2757] Sun, 07 November 2004 18:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tabercil  is currently offline Tabercil
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Janet wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 11:31

Wow! Two chapters at once...

And so much in them. Gonna take some time to sort through it all.

Hope no one ODs on this much Tuck in one sitting... =)


I just wish Ellen had put these up on Friday... so I'd have a chance to fully digest these without having to shove them to one side on Monday for that insanity that it called "work". Cool

Still, I can see there's a great deal happening here... and I know there's lots to comment on. I just want to go back through it a couple of times more to grasp everything before I start doing any mass commenting. But for starters, I agree with Janet - the hacking of the school computers is not directly related to Tuck's attack. The hacking might have be done by someone who was involved in the attack, but that's the extent of any connection. And I firmly believe that the would-be hacker is not one of the thugs who did the attack.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2758] Sun, 07 November 2004 18:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Tabercil wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 23:04

I just wish Ellen had put these up on Friday...

Ellen wasn't DONE with them Friday... especially not #107.
Now, some proofers did urge that I wait to release #107 for another week... I suppose that next time I should do that, eh?


Ellen
nosig

Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2760] Sun, 07 November 2004 18:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tabercil  is currently offline Tabercil
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 18:16

Tabercil wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 23:04

I just wish Ellen had put these up on Friday...

Ellen wasn't DONE with them Friday... especially not #107.
Now, some proofers did urge that I wait to release #107 for another week... I suppose that next time I should do that, eh?


Ellen
nosig



Urrr... never mind me! I'll be over in the corner chewing on this nice delicious moccasin that's currently wrapped around my foot. Embarassed
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2761] Sun, 07 November 2004 19:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cate
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F,U,& D???? Fabrications, untruth, & disinformation??
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2762] Sun, 07 November 2004 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tabercil  is currently offline Tabercil
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Cate wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 19:51

F,U,& D???? Fabrications, untruth, & disinformation??



Close... "Fear, uncertainty, and doubt". See http://computing-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/FUD for the definition. While it may have been invented by IBM, Microsoft is arguably probably the best praticioner of it these days.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2763] Sun, 07 November 2004 20:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike the Younger  is currently offline Mike the Younger
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***

"Yeah, it's got over a thousand megabytes of memory, and- Hey,
check this out!"

***


Could this be a referance to Tuck's laptop?
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2764] Sun, 07 November 2004 20:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Janet  is currently offline Janet
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Mike the Younger wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 18:09

***

"Yeah, it's got over a thousand megabytes of memory, and- Hey,
check this out!"

***


Could this be a referance to Tuck's laptop?

It's only been in the last year or so where laptops have been capable of holding over a GB of RAM. Not sure about >1GB hard drives, but I don't think so.

The reference, I think, is of the school computer which the roaches are trying to hack.

BTW, I don't think that Tuck's laptop has seen power since it was stolen. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that the mods Tuck made on the BIOS ROM are such that the maching will do some interesting things without some sort of password.

For all we know, it may be rigged to phone home if the right key sequence is not entered at boot.


Janet

All that glitters is not Iron Pyrite
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2765] Sun, 07 November 2004 21:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ClaireR  is currently offline ClaireR
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Mike the Younger wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 01:09

***

"Yeah, it's got over a thousand megabytes of memory, and- Hey,
check this out!"

***


Could this be a referance to Tuck's laptop?


I dont know Mike but I think this is
"Just six hundred dollars?"
"Yeah, man, but I like NEED to get my car fixed; that's more
important than having this. I'm not using it as much as I thought I
would anyway."

[Updated on: Sun, 07 November 2004 21:03]

Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2766] Sun, 07 November 2004 21:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tabercil  is currently offline Tabercil
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ClaireR wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 21:01



I dont know Mike but I think this is
"Just six hundred dollars?"
"Yeah, man, but I like NEED to get my car fixed; that's more
important than having this. I'm not using it as much as I thought I
would anyway."



At first I thought it could've been Frank Donner (the guy whose car Tuck & company trashed in the quarry) who was selling/pawning it, but that was too long ago (over a year story-wise), and I suspect that he's since replaced it.

But at least we know the laptop is now in circulation. And since it's set to do an "ET phone home" on being hooked up to a phoneline if stolen, I suspect whoever now has it (who is relatively innocent) will quickly feel the wrath of the Tuckers, Boyz and Pack unless they can talk very quickly and point them to to whoever they got it from.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2767] Sun, 07 November 2004 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Mike the Younger wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 01:09

***

"Yeah, it's got over a thousand megabytes of memory, and- Hey,
check this out!"

***


Could this be a referance to Tuck's laptop?


It's an awful lot of memory for a laptop - or a desktop/under-desk PC for that matter - in 1997. IIRC the 128Mb laptop I bought over a year later was reckoned a good spec at the time.

I really don't know how they'd have got a gigabyte into a 1997-vintage thinkpad given available memory form-factors/capacities at the time.

I'm looking fondly at the idea of upgrading my laptop to a Gb now, but I can't afford it.


Rachel
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2768] Sun, 07 November 2004 21:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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I strongly suspect it is the laptop- I seriously doubt the people who stole it would understand the difference between RAM and a hard drive. I've found that a lot of people not into computers think of both as memory.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2770] Sun, 07 November 2004 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Mike the Younger wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 23:09


Could this be a referance to Tuck's laptop?

Probably.

And, going on about the computer stuff:
1- Who is the school roach?
2- Does it have any relation to the main storyline?
3- Where is Tuck's notebook?

I think there is a fair chance that those things are connected. I have come up with some different (but related) scenarios. All of them suppose that the sentence
"Yeah, man, but I like NEED to get my car fixed; that's more important than having this. I'm not using it as much as I thought I would anyway."
comes from the aggressor who stole the notebook.
Now, the next interesting sentence:
"Yeah, it's got over a thousand megabytes of memory, and- Hey, check this out!"
happens JUST when Bill is fighting the school "roach." Too much of a coincidence, I think...
Things to note:
- The first sentence MIGHT refer to the sale of the notebook itself, or of something else -- and one possibility is that the perp is selling his old desktop computer, now that he has this way-cool Thinkpad. Either way, the way it's phrased seem to imply that the buyer doesn't know about the seller having stolen the notebook: if the object of sale is the notebook, the phrasing implies that he had it for a while and decided he did not need it, after all. If it refers to the old desktop, it's interesting in that it doesn't mention the fact that the perp has a newer, better computer now.
- Whoever said the second sentence does not seem to be too much into the technical side of things: "over a thousand megabytes of memory" is way imprecise, while a geekier person would probably say "over a gigabyte of hard disk" (this is 1997, 1 Gig RAM was highly unlikely back then -- but 1 Gig hard disks were about right...)
- The "need money to fix the car" may be a clue to the perp's identity. If the incident hadn't happened about six months previously, a good candidate for the perp would be Rob Walsh, by the way. But Debbie gave us another good candidate: Wyatt Nettle, a previously unknown name, who had his Mustang's side "seriously swiped" (I'm unfamiliar with the term, does that mean "scratched"?) at some unknown time. If it was recent enough, well...

Scenario 1:
The perp sold the laptop for $600. The buyer might be the "roach", who, although merely a script kiddie, apparently has enough interest in computers to salivate at the bargain. He might be showing it off to an accomplice at the same time that his "regular" computer was script-kidding its way into the school's computer, and the "Hey, check this out!" thing referring to him noticing one of Bill's "baits."

Scenario 2:
The perp didn't manage to sell the computer immediately. The second sentence happens when he's "demoing" it, trying to close the deal. The interpretation of the second sentence is about the same, with the difference here being that the PERP himself is the "roach."

Scenario 3:
The computer sold is actually the perp's desktop, not the notebook. The buyer is showing off his new machine, when then he notices that the machine has script-hacked into the school. This implies not only that the perp is also the roach, but ALSO that he had set up his computer to auto-hack into the school computers, AND forgot to take it out before selling the computer. Frankly, I find those assumptions a bit too much; this scenario is way below the other two in likelyhood, in my opinion.

Anyway... in either scenario 1 or 2, the desktop computer is now hosed, thanks to Bill. That means that the "roach," be him the actual perp or not, will HAVE to use the notebook if he wants to check his e-mail. And so, Tuck's little trap is about to be sprung...
If he is the perp, well, he is in for a lot of trouble. If he is not, then Bill has extensive blackmailing material to "induce" the roach to testify as to who sold him the notebook. This would corroborate Tuck's testimony, and so make the DA's job SO much easier...

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2771] Sun, 07 November 2004 22:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Since Bill overwrote the CMOS, (this is battery-backed RAM that retains memory when the computer is off), the Roach's machine is toast unless someone knowledgeable gets around Bill's crippling. Not that hard, though with some machines it would mean installing new CMOS since if you remove the battery, letting the CMOS die, none of the drives work to get info in to re-program the CMOS. That's on some machines, notably, as I remember, some IBMs and Compaqs.

Six hundred would be about right for a black market price for a good laptop. "Not using it as much as I thought" is a lie, the thief hasn't used it at all most likely though he may have booted it up, into Windows since that is what Tuck installed as default boot unless certain keys are hit. "The check this out" is probably reference to the nice color screen or CD rom drive, I don't think the dweeb knows enough to brag about something software unless Tuck installed some games as bait.

So, the Roach is needing a new machine. He buys Tuck's laptop from the thugs who stole it, hooks it to his modem and the machine phones home. Down comes the wrath of the Tuckers and with the added twist that they may figure out this dickwad is The Roach, so leverage to get him to spill who he bought the machine from and ... well, too much speculation is not good for the anticipation. Smile

- Erin
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2773] Sun, 07 November 2004 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Still no mention, except obliquely, of Travis. Hmmm?

- Erin
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2774] Sun, 07 November 2004 23:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sandradee  is currently offline sandradee
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Being "side swiped" means being crashed into from the side.

Is it just me or is $600 a pittance for a laptop in that era? I had bought a used thinkpad around that time and I paid about $500 for 540mb hard drive,100 mhz 486, and I thought it was a rip off at the time. Which maybe leans towards the seller being rather computer clueless? Or maybe he just wants money.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2775] Mon, 08 November 2004 00:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Janet  is currently offline Janet
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sandradee wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 21:30

Being "side swiped" means being crashed into from the side.

Is it just me or is $600 a pittance for a laptop in that era? I had bought a used thinkpad around that time and I paid about $500 for 540mb hard drive,100 mhz 486, and I thought it was a rip off at the time. Which maybe leans towards the seller being rather computer clueless? Or maybe he just wants money.
Well, yeah... he needs the money, pretty badly.

Besides, it's hot (stolen...) He doesn't want to be caught with the goods. For one thing, it could link him to the assault.

Not that it's gonna do him any good... Wink


Janet

All that glitters is not Iron Pyrite
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2780] Mon, 08 November 2004 05:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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I suppose I'm going to have to write YET ANOTHER episode to clear all these questions up... *pretends to be upset*


Ellen
nosig

Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2781] Mon, 08 November 2004 06:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
brudin  is currently offline brudin
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the perp could be clueless in computer too, i remember at this time my boss have his car broken. the perp get the radio and let in the car the computers parts (HDD, RAM, MB,etc..) who where in the place behind.(all of the parts was in ther box)


Brudin, palanain de Moradin.
(Moradin's paladwarf, cool joke in french Wink )
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2783] Mon, 08 November 2004 06:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Another point that occurred to me:
Brian has been spreading fear of being found with "incriminating evidence." If this has reached the perp's ears, that might give another reason to letting go of the notebook at such a bargain price.

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2784] Mon, 08 November 2004 11:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

Bill's eye caught something, and he glanced over at Mike. Mike nodded and tapped at the jacket he was wearing. *Good man,* Bill nodded back.

Would that be a jacket designed especially to allow easy access to a pistol?



the scene with bill pulling out a large wooden billy club thingy from his coat reminded me of highschool. I could hide a full sized band flute in my school blazer. I could also hide a low d pennywistle which is a little fatter and a little shorter. We used to joke that i could hide a shotgun in my blazer and no one would notice.

Makes you wonder what all the two of them could be packing.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2786] Mon, 08 November 2004 19:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Doragoon wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 08:08


the scene with bill pulling out a large wooden billy club thingy from his coat reminded me of highschool. I could hide a full sized band flute in my school blazer. I could also hide a low d pennywistle which is a little fatter and a little shorter. We used to joke that i could hide a shotgun in my blazer and no one would notice.

Makes you wonder what all the two of them could be packing.


I was surprised that Bill used something made of wood. It was quite common where acquaintences of mine didn't carry any "real" weapons, just heavy duty Maglites, the 4 D cell kind - they can do serious damage if necessary. I understand that if you had a small billy club or a baseball bat in the car passenger area, some states consider it an illegal weapon. Frown Flashlights get you around that rule.
Gone are the good old days of the '60s where kids can pack .45 handguns in their lockers and the school admins would look the other way ..... Sad
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2787] Mon, 08 November 2004 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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In 106...


"Just, uh, have to check on something. Technical. For Tuck," Mike tried to slide between explaining enough to get in, and not explaining Too Much.
Susan glared at him. "Is this one of your little kiddie-ninja things?"
"Yeah, it is," Mike snapped back.
He was going to say something more, but she opened the door for him. "Just be quiet; Mom's trying to sleep, okay?"
"Sure." He watched her carefully; it was unlike Tuck's sister to be so reasonable.


It's minor, and maybe I am reading to much into things but this piece gave me pause. What is Susan's relationship with Mike? When Tuck came home from his breakup with Debbie, didn't Susan contact Mike to get Tuck out of his trance? Here, she "glared" at Mike and threw a condescending remark on Mike's activities.

I am trying to determine whether it's with Mike she had a problem, possibly habitual antagonisms from years past. Or, is she not into the family paranoia bit but just goes along with it?
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2788] Mon, 08 November 2004 20:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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lurker wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 22:58

It's minor, and maybe I am reading to much into things but this piece gave me pause. What is Susan's relationship with Mike? When Tuck came home from his breakup with Debbie, didn't Susan contact Mike to get Tuck out of his trance? Here, she "glared" at Mike and threw a condescending remark on Mike's activities.

I am trying to determine whether it's with Mike she had a problem, possibly habitual antagonisms from years past. Or, is she not into the family paranoia bit but just goes along with it?


Susan has basically made peace with Tuck. Living apart often does that -- I spent my teen years fighting with my older brother, but after he went to college we stopped fighting and our relationship became quite good. Basically, the daily getting-into-each-other's-nerves stops being a factor, and the things you do have in common can surface.

Susan has been quite friendly with Tuck, since at least the Big Crisis Back In April, and with Mike by extension. But sometimes old habits come back... in this case, for instance, she actually was reasonable, as Mike himself noted, but then her old habit of needling Tuck & Friends came back almost by reflex. This goes both ways -- Tuck's asking "what happened to my sister, and can we keep this one?" in jest is an old habit of being antagonistic to Susan resurfacing, despite their being now in good terms.

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2790] Mon, 08 November 2004 22:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Ellen has put us into Sarah's head in the last two chapters, mostly while Sarah was out smoking - mulling over the events of the previous week or so. It's interesting as Bill and Sarah compared notes on what Val was wearing during her grounding, Sarah felt Val's intention was to annoy Sarah by the way Val dresses.
Sarah is obviously beginning to get a handle on the concept of Tuck being Val. Will Bill and Sarah in the near future (in matter of days, or a week or two) insist that Tuck gets Val's things from Rachel's, and in the future, leave the Tucker household in either the persona of Val or Tuck - depending on the situation? Or keep things as status quo? It could be argued either way for security reasons....
Seems that Bill was/is a Libertarian, while Sarah was a pot smoking feminist liberal in her day - just a domestic Nazi when it comes to her kids... Confused
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2791] Mon, 08 November 2004 23:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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lurker wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 19:51

Ellen has put us into Sarah's head in the last two chapters, mostly while Sarah was out smoking.

I was more than a little bit suprised to see that Sarah had fallen off the wagon on that, or even that she had been on the wagon to begin with.
With that mentioned, I found it quite worrisome. Most of the asthma sufferers I know can't stand cigarette smoke, even if they no longer have problems from the disease for the most part. I even suspect that Tuck's medical problems as a kid may have been what led her to quit and stick with it.
What her then starting up again says about her attitude towards Tuck, when Tuck is already hurt, is not good- and if she can't get back on the wagon, Tuck will probably take it as yet another personal attack- a serious one, at that.
Or mayby I'm reading way too much into it.

And now for something completely different...
The chapter titles are still from Pink Floyd songs, but I hadn't heard of either of them before a quick google to check the fact. Am I the only one who thinks they might fit the chapters better if swapped? (Which is leading me to wonder what I'm missing in the episodes, that I think that...)
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2793] Tue, 09 November 2004 02:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Luthien  is currently offline Luthien
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sorry to revisit a previous topic in this thread, but it's sort of bothering me.

as far as I'm concerned:
-the only reference to tuck's laptop in these chapters is the $600 quote, if that's even what it refers to.

-I'm pretty sure the other passages in question ("over a thousand megabytes of memory", etc) are being said about the school's servers. If someone's going to be that enthused about the amount of memory it has, they're probably going to be computer-savvy enough to understand the distinction between RAM and hard disk space.

-Also, I don't think the laptop has been turned on yet. If tuck was going to build in a phone-home routine, I doubt it would involve cracking into the school's computers so clumsily - it would most likely send a message to tuck or his father's computer(s) in order to facilitate rescue of the laptop. From the descriptions in the chapter, it seems that the "roach" is actively cracking into the computer, reacting in real-time to what Bill is doing on his end. I think this makes it clear that it's the roach himself who's controlling the cracking session, not observing it. (and, tuck would be sure to hide the phone-home activities on the laptop so the user wouldn't get paranoid.)


I'm reserving further comment on these chapters until I read them again and get my thoughts together; but I felt I had to respond to this point in the thread so far. Thanks, Ellen - these were worth the wait! (but I'm still hungering for more...)

edit: OtherEric, I don't think that Sarah's smoking says anything negative about her attitude toward Tuck. While his asthma was most likely a factor in her quitting, I somehow doubt that the act is in any real way connected to her attitude toward her son. It's more than likely just what the story makes it out to be - a vice to relieve stress, disconnect from the situation at hand, and an excuse to take a moment to think.

[Updated on: Tue, 09 November 2004 02:40]

Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2796] Tue, 09 November 2004 03:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Mild rebuttal here:

People who are savvy about computers wouldn't be talking about 1000 megs of "memory" in 1997, very few machines had that much RAM and nerds wouldn't say "1000 megs of memory", they'd be nerd-cool and say "a gig of RAM".

But a 1 G HD in a highend laptop in 1997 sounds about right. I seem to remember that I had a nice laptop about then with an 800meg HD. So I don't think that was the Roach talking who probably DOES know enough about computers to distinguish between RAM and HD, even if he is a script-kiddie. (I first heard that phrase as "script-kitty", which is much more fluffy and cuddly sounding.) Very Happy

Two, I don't think anyone was suggesting that the computer being used to crack the school computers was Tuck's laptop. If it had been, Bill would already know where it was. But it's possible that the Roach is now in the process of buying the laptop off the thug who ripped it off.

I agree with you about Sarah's smoking. Smile

- Erin
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2797] Tue, 09 November 2004 05:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Luthien wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 23:37


edit: OtherEric, I don't think that Sarah's smoking says anything negative about her attitude toward Tuck. While his asthma was most likely a factor in her quitting, I somehow doubt that the act is in any real way connected to her attitude toward her son.

The more I think about it, the more I tend to agree, at least on Mom's side. I still think Tuck might view it as an attack, though.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2799] Tue, 09 November 2004 05:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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OtherEric wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 10:07

Luthien wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 23:37


edit: OtherEric, I don't think that Sarah's smoking says anything negative about her attitude toward Tuck. While his asthma was most likely a factor in her quitting, I somehow doubt that the act is in any real way connected to her attitude toward her son.

The more I think about it, the more I tend to agree, at least on Mom's side. I still think Tuck might view it as an attack, though.


OTOH I find myself in the odd position of hoping she doesn't give up again too quickly... She seems to be starting to think rather than react...

NB: The only relevance I can think of for "Burning Bridges" in 107 was the abortive attempt by Jody and Holly to apologise.


Rachel
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2801] Tue, 09 November 2004 12:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

The only relevance I can think of for "Burning Bridges" in 107 was the abortive attempt by Jody and Holly to apologise.


Burning bridges usualy mens that you're limiting your choices by taking actions. And they have started taking actions. they are setting up more phone taps, and getting a cheerleader arrested and breaking up thier drinking party. Also, tuck has given names to the cops wich means they can't hit them until the cops get to them first.

burning bridges seems to fit, though i havn't started any re-reads yet.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2802] Tue, 09 November 2004 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Doragoon wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 17:20

Quote:

The only relevance I can think of for "Burning Bridges" in 107 was the abortive attempt by Jody and Holly to apologise.


Burning bridges usualy mens that you're limiting your choices by taking actions. And they have started taking actions. they are setting up more phone taps, and getting a cheerleader arrested and breaking up thier drinking party. Also, tuck has given names to the cops wich means they can't hit them until the cops get to them first.

burning bridges seems to fit, though i havn't started any re-reads yet.


Maybe there's a cultural difference again. Burning bridges means that here too, but there's a strong connotation of abandoning or losing any chance of reconciliation.

Which ties in to Bill's comment a few lines later about people not getting a second chance.


Rachel
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2804] Tue, 09 November 2004 21:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Janet  is currently offline Janet
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Doragoon wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 10:20

Quote:

The only relevance I can think of for "Burning Bridges" in 107 was the abortive attempt by Jody and Holly to apologise.


Burning bridges usualy mens that you're limiting your choices by taking actions. And they have started taking actions.
Sorta makes you wonder what other actions will be taken...
Quote:

they are setting up more phone taps, and getting a cheerleader arrested and breaking up thier drinking party.
Given Tuck's reaction to hearing that there were cheerleaders at the hospital, I wonder if one of the Tuckers' next moves will be an order of protection forcing the sports teams and cheerleaders from coming within 1000 feet of Tuck. If Tuck went back to school, would that essentially close down the athletic program?
Quote:

Also, tuck has given names to the cops wich means they can't hit them until the cops get to them first.
I assume here that you mean that the Tucker faction will be taking no direct action against the alleged perps.

As has been repeatedly observed, there is no such restriction on the perps.
Quote:

burning bridges seems to fit, though i havn't started any re-reads yet.
Yes, I agree. And since they are burning, there is still the possibility of putting the fires out before the bridge is unusable.


Janet

All that glitters is not Iron Pyrite
More Questions... [message #2841] Thu, 18 November 2004 07:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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From #106:
Quote:

Trish, I- Sarah, you cant just LEAVE things like this- I dont damn well KNOW anything! They didnt call Friday, she said even as she realized they might have and everyone had missed it in the confusion.


Is Trish really that insensitive, or is her problem major enough (Amy getting kidnapped?) to be worthy of demanding Sarah's attention even under the circumstances?

From #107:
Quote:

Were gonna do a lecture like we did when Tuck got his medical tests back... Which reminded [Susan] that she was supposed to get some results of her own back this weekend.


Anyone figured this one out? I'm not sure whether Susan has had time to initiate anything since she got into town, and I wouldn't expect that anything she did before she left college would be important enough to draw her attention now. (I guess it's possible that now that the immediate crisis has passed, she could focus momentarily on something of lesser importance.)
Re: More Questions... [message #2842] Thu, 18 November 2004 08:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Eric wrote on Thu, 18 November 2004 12:19

From #106:
Quote:

"Trish, I-" "Sarah, you can't just LEAVE things like this-" "I don't damn well KNOW anything! They didn't call Friday," she said even as she realized they might have and everyone had missed it in the confusion.


Is Trish really that insensitive, or is her problem major enough (Amy getting kidnapped?) to be worthy of demanding Sarah's attention even under the circumstances?


No idea at all what that's about.

Eric continued

From #107:
Quote:

"We're gonna do a lecture like we did when Tuck got his medical tests back..." Which reminded [Susan] that she was supposed to get some results of her own back this weekend.


Anyone figured this one out? I'm not sure whether Susan has had time to initiate anything since she got into town, and I wouldn't expect that anything she did before she left college would be important enough to draw her attention now. (I guess it's possible that now that the immediate crisis has passed, she could focus momentarily on something of lesser importance.)


Oh God. She's pregnant?

Didn't think about that at all while I was reading it; thought it was probably just precautionary tests maybe she and Brian had because of Tuck, but now... with that wording.

Hmm.

Her getting pregnant during college isn't going to make her mother any happier is it? :-}


Rachel
Re: More Questions... [message #2844] Thu, 18 November 2004 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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rachel.greenham wrote on Thu, 18 November 2004 13:29


Her getting pregnant during college isn't going to make her mother any happier is it? :-}


*thinks*
*laughs* Oh, what if she carried it to term, then snuck home and placed it in Tuck's bedroom?
"It's NOT MINE!"
"Well it's certainly not MINE!"
"MOMMmmmmm!"
"_I_ had MY tubes tied!"

...

"It's not MINE!"
"Oh, right, the STORK brought it, right?!"
"SHUT UP GEORGE!"
"I told you, you stupid round-eye, to use protection..."

*sighs happily* Not really feasible, but still vastly amusing... at least to my sick mind. =)


Ellen
nosig
Re: More Questions... [message #2847] Thu, 18 November 2004 21:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Thu, 18 November 2004 13:13

rachel.greenham wrote on Thu, 18 November 2004 13:29


Her getting pregnant during college isn't going to make her mother any happier is it? :-}


*thinks*
*laughs* Oh, what if she carried it to term, then snuck home and placed it in Tuck's bedroom?
"It's NOT MINE!"
"Well it's certainly not MINE!"
"MOMMmmmmm!"
"_I_ had MY tubes tied!"

...

"It's not MINE!"
"Oh, right, the STORK brought it, right?!"
"SHUT UP GEORGE!"
"I told you, you stupid round-eye, to use protection..."

*sighs happily* Not really feasible, but still vastly amusing... at least to my sick mind. =)



You are indeed sick. But we like that.

On the gripping hand, since Susan is established as having had an abortion (somewhere iin one of the stories), you'd think she'd be more careful.

Other ways of getting the same effective result occur to me.

Val is babysitting, something happens to Mr & Mrs Parker. Say something that has them hospitalized for a long time. And since no relatives are nearby (or maybe the cousin(?) who works nights is the only near relative). So they ask Val to take care of the kids until they recover. Given that the alternative is likely the State placing the kids in a foster home, that's not all that far fetched.

For true evil, it could involve appointing Val as guardian. And Mr & Mrs Parker dying from complications...

But too many folks would want to kill you for that.

Alternatively, have Val find an abandoned baby. And get attached. Maybe they are stranded somewhere isolated for a while. And Val can't bear to let "her" kid go to a foster home.

At sixteen Val *might* be able to adopt (if she can talk Bill & Sarah into signing the forms). I'd imagine it depends on state laws.

At least thanks to the training for the babysitting, they can't claim Val isn't capable of handling the kid. Psych issues could get interesting though. Wonder what Shiela would say? <eg>

Again, far fetched and probably steering the story in directions you don't want to go. But it might make an interesting fan-fic. Almost wish I was up to it. Smile

Re: More Questions... [message #2849] Fri, 19 November 2004 01:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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rachel.greenham wrote on Thu, 18 November 2004 05:29

Eric continued

From #107:
Quote:

"We're gonna do a lecture like we did when Tuck got his medical tests back..." Which reminded [Susan] that she was supposed to get some results of her own back this weekend.


Anyone figured this one out? I'm not sure whether Susan has had time to initiate anything since she got into town, and I wouldn't expect that anything she did before she left college would be important enough to draw her attention now. (I guess it's possible that now that the immediate crisis has passed, she could focus momentarily on something of lesser importance.)


Oh God. She's pregnant?


First thought I had too (second was an STD test), but based on what we know of her previous experience, I can't believe she'd have unprotected sex, and if she'd been raped this time, we'd have heard about it before now, either because she shot the guy in self-defense or because she wouldn't trust the authorities and would bring the rest of the family in for payback.

Which leaves wanting to get pregnant. I have trouble imagining that she'd make that impulsive a decision or act on it that quickly; if Carlo weren't enough of a cautionary factor, her dates at home with Kyle imply that she didn't have an ongoing serious relationship at school, and the exchange with Mike et al. while she was trying on clothes makes it clear that in that relationship at least, she didn't want to move too quickly.

Anyway, while Tuck's medical test results were a reminder, Ellen doesn't say that Susan's tests were medical, or even that the results she's anticipating came from a test. I'm not sure, though, what kind of results, medical or otherwise, she'd be expecting during a weekend.

(An answer to some inquiry she made through the radio station where she interned, perhaps? That very likely wasn't a random choice of occupation on Ellen's part, and we haven't had any related payoff so far...)
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2889] Wed, 08 December 2004 03:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Y'know, we've had suprisingly little discussion on these chapters. I think Ellen blew our minds with the double dose, and then most of us were so relieved that Tuck was relativly OK, that we never really had our detail-digging followup.

Not that I found that much to add, when I went back to re-read. There's a lot of stuff that feels like setting up for later episodes that needed to happen when we could see things from something other than Tuck's perspective. I just don't know what's important, what's red herrings, and what's just there. So, it's hard to pick stuff out. We'll know more after the next few episodes.

Mayby it's just me, but I tend to think of most of the cast as nice people who are fully capable of getting very, very nasty when they need to. After these episodes, I have the feeling that Sarah is a naturally nasty person who normally tries hard to be nice. (That's not exactly what I mean, but I can't figure out a better way to phrase it. Does anybody else know what I mean?)

I would find it hard to believe the cheerleaders were really stupid enough to wear the uniforms to the hospital thinking it would help. Not impossible, mind you. I find a lot of real life stupidity like that. It's not take me out of the story unbelivable, it's the same jaw-dropping idiocy that I have trouble believing in real life.

I didn't realize on first reading just how nasty a cliffhanger Ellen left for us. We have no idea if Kyle is in the house the cops are surrounding or not; and if the next episode is back to Tuck perspective, we may not find out for quite a while.

Interesting omission: Susan was never asked what she knows about Valerie. I'm not even sure Susan knows yet that the parents know.

I know Tuck's life is going to change after this episode- I'm not even sure Tuck is going back to school. I suspect the parents will force a choice between Eugene and Valerie; I don't know which one Tuck would choose or if Tuck would try to keep the double life going despite telling the parents it was ending.

So, anybody else have some thoughts now that we've had some time to think?

[Updated on: Wed, 08 December 2004 11:38]

Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2890] Wed, 08 December 2004 09:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Hmmm, hard to tell. Tuck not going back to the school -- a distinct possibility, subject to whatever relevant laws might apply. Maybe he could transfer to a different school, maybe he could be homeschooled, I don't know.
OTOH, anything that DELAYS his graduating will be probably be resisted by Tuck. And taking him out of his support structure (the Rat Boyz, the Pack, even Dobson) and letting him to fend *by himself* in another school is a Very Bad Idea.

As for "forcing a choice between Tuck and Valerie..." I don't think Tuck's parents are at this point of acceptance yet.

Let's face it: the Val thing had nearly nothing to do with the attack. It was TUCK who was attacked. If anything, Valerie would be SAFER, because more people would be squeamish about hitting a "girl", while it's pretty much open season on "fag nerds".

However, I don't think Bill or (especially) Sarah are ready to accept Valerie as a full identity. At this point, they may see Valerie as an unnecessary risk, and pressure Tuck to give "her" up. But forcing a choice is not in the cards for a while yet, since they don't accept Valerie as a possible alternative.

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2891] Wed, 08 December 2004 11:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Sir Lee wrote on Wed, 08 December 2004 06:07


As for "forcing a choice between Tuck and Valerie..." I don't think Tuck's parents are at this point of acceptance yet.

For some reason, I think Dad is at that point. Not happy with it, not quite comfortable with it. But ready to admit that it might be what's best for Tuck.

Tuck, the parents, and possibly one or two other people are going to need to sit down and talk about what happens next. I have a hunch that Mom & Dad will have agreed in advance that the double life needs to go- Dad has already said as much. Tuck would then protest the loss of Valerie, and Dad would then say "so give up Eugene, instead." Which would then set Mom off, because that wasn't what she meant. I have no idea how Tuck would react to that- stall as long as possible as a minimum, but nothing beyond that.

At least, that's how I envision one possible scenario. Which means it's almost certainly not how it's going to happen. Rolling Eyes

Another school option: does anybody doubt for a second that Tuck could pass the GED test? Not that I think the Tuckers would view that as an acceptable solution in the long run, but they might welcome it as a stopgap to get the state to leave them alone while they work out a long term solution.

[Updated on: Wed, 08 December 2004 11:55]

Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2892] Wed, 08 December 2004 12:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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OtherEric wrote on Wed, 08 December 2004 16:25

Another school option: does anybody doubt for a second that Tuck could pass the GED test? Not that I think the Tuckers would view that as an acceptable solution in the long run, but they might welcome it as a stopgap to get the state to leave them alone while they work out a long term solution.


No idea at all; but I just can't see how they can say something like "someone does this to my child they don't get a second chance" (or whatever the exact quote was), and still in any sense let Tuck go back into the obviously-lethal environment in which it happened.

[Updated on: Wed, 08 December 2004 12:20]


Rachel
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2893] Wed, 08 December 2004 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Upinmyhead  is currently offline Upinmyhead
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rachel.greenham wrote on Thu, 09 December 2004 01:19

but I just can't see how they can say something like "someone does this to my child they don't get a second chance" (or whatever the exact quote was), and still in any sense let Tuck go back into the obviously-lethal environment in which it happened.



The thing is, the school as a whole is not at fault. Certain individuals within the school caused it, including Tuck himself (seriously, spitting in someone's face, especially if that someone might be friends with people who don't like you, isn't exactly going to ingratiate you with anyone who might be looking for an excuse to kick the crap out of you). It obviously went overboard, but it's not like you can hold up the school itself and say "This school caused this to happen." The bunch of guys that attacked Tuck first... was it the school that caused them to do it? No. It was whatever reason they had to seriously consider assaulting Tuck. You might say the school was negligent in allowing it to happen, but that to me is more of a legal response, and not truly grounded in any sort of reality. Things do happen that cannot be prepared for.

I think that comment was more to the fact that they really didn't know who attacked Tuck other than the cheerleaders. It doesn't really indicate anything other than a serious intent to protect Tuck (at least, that's what it indicates in my opinion).
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2894] Wed, 08 December 2004 21:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Parsing what OtherEric wrote on Wed, 08 December 2004 00:15

Y'know, we've had suprisingly little discussion on these chapters. I think Ellen blew our minds with the double dose, and then most of us were so relieved that Tuck was relativly OK, that we never really had our detail-digging followup.

We're still not sure if Tuck will fully recover. I think for the future story arc, it's important that Tuck does fully recover.
Quote:

There's a lot of stuff that feels like setting up for later episodes that needed to happen when we could see things from something other than Tuck's perspective........
I didn't realize on first reading just how nasty a cliffhanger Ellen left for us. We have no idea if Kyle is in the house the cops are surrounding or not; and if the next episode is back to Tuck perspective, we may not find out for quite a while.

We know that Tuck is into anime and RPG. But with all the practice that Tuck, Mike and the other Rat Boyz spend time sparring with each other that doesn't quite look standard military - I think they're big gratuitious violent martial art film fans as well. I bring this up because...
Quote:

So, anybody else have some thoughts now that we've had some time to think?

Not sure whether or not Tuck is going back to the same life pattern before the attack, but right now the setup is perfect for a classic martial arts revenge scenario being played out. After the Tuckers let the authorities do their thing, I can't believe Ellen won't give us the satisfaction of some nasty personal revenge perform by the Rat Boyz/Pack with the timing and choregraphy of simultaneous actions that would make Michael Corleone proud. You messa with my family, I messa with yours... Twisted Evil
Then we proceed with getting Tuck on track with his future.....
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2896] Thu, 09 December 2004 04:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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OtherEric wrote on Wed, 08 December 2004 00:15

Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think of most of the cast as nice people who are fully capable of getting very, very nasty when they need to. After these episodes, I have the feeling that Sarah is a naturally nasty person who normally tries hard to be nice.

If Sarah did belong to the Weather Underground in college, I doubt that she was a moderating force. Makes you wonder if she's really as "mundane" as Tuck thinks she is, and whether she knows more about the Boyz' "social work" than she lets on.

OtherEric, continued...

Interesting omission: Susan was never asked what she knows about Valerie. I'm not even sure Susan knows yet that the parents know.

Wow -- I'd missed that. Can't say that I see where it could lead, but it's certainly a situation with potential for misunderstandings. First thought was Susan assuming the need for diversionary action if Travis or one or more of the Parkers were to show up at the hospital to visit Valerie, but that's unlikely now: after the cheerleaders' visit, I'm not sure the Tuckers could be convinced to keep him there even with full-blown pneumonia. (At the very least, they'd probably want him moved to another hospital at a less public location.)
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2897] Thu, 09 December 2004 05:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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from Chapter 107, Dana Treble:

And weve got to restart his antiasthmatics, so- He wasnt on them? Hed been in remission for two years; Id rather not have a kid on steroids if they dont need it...


I'm not sure whether this came in under the radar or whether I'm just further off the wall than usual. But if Tuck's body was being hit with steroids all the way through early adolescence, couldn't it have fouled up his hormone balance and prevented his body from being feminized sooner?

And if so, what happens when they're reinstated?
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2898] Thu, 09 December 2004 15:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Eric wrote on Thu, 09 December 2004 01:52

If Sarah did belong to the Weather Underground in college, I doubt that she was a moderating force. Makes you wonder if she's really as "mundane" as Tuck thinks she is, and whether she knows more about the Boyz' "social work" than she lets on.

I tend to disregard Tuck's reference to the parents as "mundane" as either Tuck & Mike being ironic, or just Ellen not yet having figured out what the parents were like. Given what we've seen of them, they are nowhere close to mundane & Tuck is fully aware of that.
Eric wrote on Thu, 09 December 2004 01:52

after the cheerleaders' visit, I'm not sure the Tuckers could be convinced to keep him there even with full-blown pneumonia. (At the very least, they'd probably want him moved to another hospital at a less public location.)

Actually, I disagree- but only becasue they already have a 24-hour watch on Tuck in place. The bigger concern might be Kyle- if they find out Kyle's evaded the cops but Kyle knows he's being hunted, the Tuckers are going to go utterly balistic.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2905] Mon, 13 December 2004 01:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stripes  is currently offline stripes
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I think the parents are closed to accepting Valerie than it might seem. Bill has (so we are Told) personal experience with identity changes, and with not turning out the way everyone expects you to; also, he's never really shown much evidence of being bothered by Val (surprised, yes). On the other hand, we have never seen one iota of acceptance from him either: even after "YOU HATE ME! I FAILED YOU!". This suggests one of two things: he's reassuring Tuck but Tuck can't stand to even think about it (and therefore it doesn't appear in the narrative or on Tuck's mental horizon); or he doesn't like the idea but is keeping his mouth shut in light of the medical results (and therefore damning Tuck with faint praise - although he's not so good with people so maybe he doesn't notice). Incidentally, I find it amusing that he doesn't think a feminist can need support from a lover - he does seem to have some very definite ideas on masculinity, which Tuck will violate unless he becomes Val full-time.

Sarah, on the other hand, has a hell of a temper. (Incidentally, I can't imagine her not being in jail if she was ever in what we(*) would now call a terrorist organization, since she can't even keep her temper enough not to hit the driver of a moving car) And she's pissed and upset and very attached to Eugene as a son. But when she stops to think (and Val is not pissing her off) she seems to be noticing that all her heartfelt (or at least strongly-worded) convictions *support* Val. Too bad that's over with, now Tuck's awake again. It's worth noticing that she knows she's supposed to offer her support if she finds out a child is gay (notice she runs over with a hug immediately) but it hasn't occurred to her to think of Val in those terms (and she hasn't said *that*'s okay - guess she was too young for Stonewall).

(*)meaning The Man

It's worth pointing out that if either of them feels like rationalizing, it's perfectly reasonable to decide that Tuck is and always was a girl and they just screwed up from day one. Not so easy to admit that kind of mistake, but they can always blame the doctors (especially the ones who did the surgery). All kinds of evidence (some of which they have) supports this interpretation. Of course, this leaves Tuck just as screwed, as he isn't (yet?) entirely happy as Val-only yet, and the hard part for people to grasp is that it should be up to him... (I haven't seen any evidence that he would mind being Val full-time, once he got used to the idea, but that's not the point).

As for Susan, I anticipate fireworks when the parents figure out that Susan knew about Val (probably Amy too, but they don't feel like they can beat Amy).

I do find it hard to believe that the parents would let Tuck go back to the same school, but then I found it hard to believe that they didn't mind the physical and emotional abuse and the mortal danger they knew he was going through for the last few years... They knew enough that this should not have come as a surprise. But then they're the ones that taught Tuck to escalate conflicts...

Anyway, I foresee a "segregated" Gifted and Talented class so that the G'n'T students can keep each other from being killed in the hallways. This will do little or nothing to change the attitudes of the school at large (the ones who casually kick Tuck when he goes down, say) except possibly to inflame their dislike for the "teachers' pets". As for the probable assailants, those who can actually be punished probably won't be back, but the rest will be gunning for Tuck with just as much venom but will be more careful next time (no living witnesses, for example). Tuck's parents will view the punishment of the known perps as a deterrent; Da Boyz (including Jill) will punish a few others in ways that are officially untraceable but unofficially bear their handwriting (ice blocks for wheels, days after flinging ice at harassers?), attracting more hate.

I suppose Dobson might be able to do something - get gay guidance counselors to visit the place, say, and talk to the classes; dismantle the football team for a year, citing unsportsmanlike attitude; start rape prevention classes... Probably polarize the school into hate fags/hate bigots categories, in the hope that the "hate fags" would come under pressure and the "hate bigots" could at least band together. And hopefully rather than killing each other, some minds might change. But maybe that's too much to hope for. You can't change a culture that easily...

On the plus side, since Tuck is already taking the crap for it, he can come out as gay or as Val without too much extra danger.

Um. That's just my (rather pessimistic) look into Tuck's future. We must, of course, await the Word on what actually happens...

Allover
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2909] Mon, 13 December 2004 09:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
Messages: 440
Registered: October 2003
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Senior Member
I don't think it's possible to do a segregated Krelboyne program (yes, I do watch Malcolm in the Middle) at McAllen. Not completely, anyway -- the G'n'T students are too spread out, meaning they take different classes. Take Tuck himself, for instance, who is taking Cosmetology -- I doubt there are enough G'n'T doing Cosmetology to warrant a special class. It could work for some advanced classes, like AP math and stuff -- but then, they already are pretty much a Krelboyne program.

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2922] Wed, 15 December 2004 08:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
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Second take...
OtherEric wrote on Wed, 08 December 2004 00:15

Interesting omission: Susan was never asked what she knows about Valerie.

There isn't really any reason why the parents would have asked Susan what she knows about Valerie. They already know the answer, and almost certainly reasoned it out even before Tuck started listing people, since clearly anyone who ever met Val at the Parkers' knew. It's the parents' not having told her that they know that'd be the problem (or plot complication).

(Before Erin or someone raises the point, the rest of this note is discussing about what the characters here, as they've been presented to us, might have done, not necessarily how it would have fit in with the story up to this point. Refocusing some of the pressure Tuck was under would have changed the story materially, and probably wouldn't have pushed Tuck to the brink he reached when everything happened at the same time.)

Would they have asked Susan why she kept the secret? The bribe/blackmail system of information exchange in the family has to be well known; Bill Tucker, a participant himself, certainly wouldn't have been unaware of it or discouraged it.

Would there be an exception for allowing a family member to put him/herself in personal danger? I'm not at all sure, given family attitudes in general and potentially lethal equipment downstairs that Tuck doesn't seem to have any problem checking out, even to the point of following SOP and leaving a note when he does it -- at least, he did when he and Brian went to Mike's rescue.

Bill has argued that in the case of Valerie's babysitting job, the whole family could be found liable for prohibitive civil penalties, so he was endangering far more than just himself. (He probably also feels protective enough to realize that exposure, unlike blowing up a mailbox and getting a few months' probation, could lead to a decade-long prison sentence and the cheerful possibility of being placed in an adult (male) prison as a cute-looking, 16-year old child molester. Makes getting chased and assaulted by Kyle almost a walk in the park.)

Would he expect Susan (or Mike, for that matter) to have recognized the extent of the danger and blown the figurative whistle? In Susan's case, Bill's "that's why we don't let them vote" wouldn't work as an excuse.

(Of course, people here have been asking that question off and on for more than a year now, from the standpoint of what it would take for some Tuck friend or relative -- or enemy, for that matter -- to be concerned or vengeful enough to notify the parents anonymously.)

Eric
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2926] Wed, 15 December 2004 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
Messages: 589
Registered: September 2003
Senior Member
Eric wrote on Wed, 15 December 2004 05:14

There isn't really any reason why the parents would have asked Susan what she knows about Valerie.

I strongly disagree, for two reasons. One, Susan is one of the only, if not the only, person they could talk to who would owe the parents anything close to the loyalty they owed Tuck, if not more. She would be more likely to give useful answers than anyone, and provide useful perspective.
Two, Mom has more than enough anger about the whole situation for more than one child. I can't imagine Susan not catching the overflow.

(Re-reading this, I realized that Eric was answering the observation I actually made, not what I really meant. "Confronted" is closer to what I meant than "Asked." My fault for not chosing the better word, and only my first reason would actually apply to Eric's objections.)

[Updated on: Wed, 15 December 2004 14:03]

Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2930] Thu, 16 December 2004 00:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
Messages: 83
Registered: July 2003
Location: Raleigh, NC
Member
With regards to the lack of a talk between the 'rents and Susan:

Has anyone else considered that Bill and Sarah would get more out of Susan in a face to face talk, than over the phone. Also, Susans internal comment about getting some test results back that weekend could have meant that she was already planning to come home that weekend and the attack on Tuck just got her home a couple of days early. If that was the case, Bill and Sarah would have wanted to wait until she was home before they interogated her on the situation with Valerie. And with the attack, they simply put her interogation on the back burner, probably until Tuck gets out of the hospital. The point is, I have a feeling that shortly Tuck is safetly home, they will have a private talk with her, followed shortly thereafter by yet another family meeting to discuss Valerie.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2935] Thu, 16 December 2004 20:56 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Leesya  is currently offline Leesya
Messages: 9
Registered: October 2003
Location: Inside the Beltway
Junior Member
maltor wrote on Thu, 16 December 2004 00:31

With regards to the lack of a talk between the 'rents and Susan:

Has anyone else considered that Bill and Sarah would get more out of Susan in a face to face talk, than over the phone. Also, Susans internal comment about getting some test results back that weekend could have meant that she was already planning to come home that weekend and the attack on Tuck just got her home a couple of days early. If that was the case, Bill and Sarah would have wanted to wait until she was home before they interogated her on the situation with Valerie. And with the attack, they simply put her interogation on the back burner, probably until Tuck gets out of the hospital. The point is, I have a feeling that shortly Tuck is safetly home, they will have a private talk with her, followed shortly thereafter by yet another family meeting to discuss Valerie.


I had also wondered about why there was no mention of Bill and Sarah talking with Susan about Val, but from Val being found by her mother on the third until the attack on the ninth, the story was in Tuck's voice, so we don't know what may have transpired "off camera". Of course, Bill and Sarah were focused on other things after the attack, and they weren't calm enough and didn't have time together to interogate Susan now that she is at home.
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