Home » Tuck Talk » Chapter by Chapter » Chapter 106 + 107
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2992] Tue, 04 January 2005 06:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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At the risk of falling off the limb that I seem to be out on:

me, elsewhere:

...when Debbie refuses to allow medical treatment on Tuck, describing the consequences as potentially major is understating the case considerably...


I wonder how long it'll take Tuck, who always thinks the worst of Debbie, to think of that once he learns about her part in all this. If he still thinks she's out to murder him, he can reconstruct it this way: Mike -- who only got alerted to the situation because he thought he saw something in the trash bin -- gets the assault stopped before Tuck gets killed and calls for an emergency helicopter, thus making it much less likely that Tuck would die on his way to the hospital. Debbie, unable to get Tuck offed at school, disables Mike's car, takes Mike to the hospital and uses him to get her into the ER, which she couldn't have done on her own. Once there, she successfully demands that the medical staff stop working on Tuck. Mike thwarts her again, saving Tuck by doing a better job than the medics could. And once he's out of Emergency and into Intensive Care, she can't do any further damage, like shutting off his life support, because from that point on Mike or a member of the family is always there watching Tuck, contrary to hospital rules.

Questions: can Mike and the Tuckers convince Tuck that it didn't really happen that way? And how hard would it be for Tuck to convince Bill, who only grudgingly accepted Debbie as "allied", or Sarah, who just tangled with Debbie last week and blames her for nearly everything about Valerie, that his theory might be correct?

Eric
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2993] Tue, 04 January 2005 09:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Hmmm, I guess that this IS just about possible. But then, it is just about possible that a meteorite made of gold might hit the pasture of my folks' farm.

The thing is, the version Tuck was told (I'm guessing that by now he has been updated on the events; after all, people who are keeping him company have to do something to kill time) was almost certainly Mike's version, which puts Debbie in a favourable light. And Tuck trusts Mike implicitly, so he won't be looking for holes in his account. (By the way, Bill has already gone through Mike's story and, while he poked holes in some of his assumptions, hadn't a problem with Debbie's role).

Now, OTOH, Sarah is wondering about Debbie's motives, and her carrying around wedding rings...

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2995] Tue, 04 January 2005 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Whitewolf  is currently offline Whitewolf
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I dont really think Tuck has any feelings like anger or hatred for Debbie look at this entry:

18:51 12 Jun

Brian said, "She's just a bitch, Tuck, just-"
I didn't even realize I'd thrown a heavy serving platter at him
until he caught it. It was right in front of his face; if he hadn't
caught it or ducked, he'd be seriously messed up right now. Good catch
too, since it was still wet and soapy from the sink.
We both stared at each other in shock.
Finally, he breathed, "What the hell...?"
"I don't know!"

Tuck seems to think that Debbie was most likely to start screaming at him and make mention of either Tuck or Val depending on which mode he was in.
But on the other hand he does seem really afraid she will hurt him for going out with Travis. Which I find odd because she was in a relationship with both Tuck and Lisa, and Tuck was much more forgiving than I would have been in that situation.
So I think before school started and Tcuk rescueing her from Tom, Tuck could convince himself and a few others of Debbie's involement I doubt now that even he could believe it for more than a few minutes
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2996] Tue, 04 January 2005 17:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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No, my guess is that in some deep emotional level, Tuck and Debbie are still strongly attracted to each other. The incident you quoted, among others, points to this: Tuck doesn't actually hate Debbie. In fact, his instinctive reaction (both here and in the Mall Incident with Tom Lenich) is to defend her.

In the same way, Debbie leapt to Tuck's defense when it mattered: after Sarah found out about Val, instead of keeping quiet and hoping Tuck's parents wouldn't think of suing her, she put herself in the line of fire to protect Tu-Val's job AND his right to keep being Val if he so wished. And recently, after finding out that Tuck was the one being Traumaflown, she immediately realized that Mike would need a lift and ABANDONED ALL HER PRIOR COMMITMENTS (which are usually numerous, and very important to her) to help. Debbie herself couldn't explain WHY she did it, when asked by Sarah.

Yes, they hurt each other terribly in the misunderstanding back in July. That's not an easy thing to get over. But there are deep feelings underneath.

Is Tuck paranoid about Debbie? Yes. In part, there is the reasonable justification that Debbie can be really vicious when angry, and she DID threaten him in the past about him "going gay on her." But the real reason (for both of them) is that they don't want to confront their real feelings, because if they do, they will have to try to work out the July breakup. Also, there's the fear of finding oneself vulnerable, i.e., admitting one still loves the other without being sure the sentiment won't be reciprocated with hatred. So, it's easier to hide one's feelings behind a barrier of resentment and anger...

Sir Lee


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #2998] Wed, 05 January 2005 01:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Luthien  is currently offline Luthien
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I'm not too worried about Tuck thinking Debbie is out to harm him, certainly not in the ways that the above posters have hypothesized. Debbie's reaction to the attack (driving Mike to to the hospital, and the actions in the emergency room) are somewhat comparable to Tuck coming to her rescue in the mall.

Debbie didn't make any moves to hurt Tuck, she worked to help Mike in the emergency room, and it's very much out of character for her to do something like disable Mike's car, and I think Tuck (for all his paranoia) is level-headed enough to see things that way, especially if Mike is the one to explain to Tuck what happened.
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #3000] Wed, 05 January 2005 03:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Sir Lee wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 14:01

Is Tuck paranoid about Debbie? Yes. In part, there is the reasonable justification that Debbie can be really vicious when angry, and she DID threaten him in the past about him "going gay on her."



She also has about a dozen ways in which she could expose Tuck's double life at school and put Tuck's life in jeopardy there. (As it turned out, the life threat happened without Debbie doing anything.) But as you point out, while there's good reason for Tuck's fear, there seems to be a sense of paranoia there as well, and that was the reason for my theory that Tuck would try to convince his parents and Mike that Debbie's apparent heroism in the latest event actually hid a form of malevolence.

Sir Lee, same note:

No, my guess is that in some deep emotional level, Tuck and Debbie are still strongly attracted to each other.


I wouldn't argue the point, since it's almost the only reasonable explanation for what's happened between them since the breakup. But I think it's clear that even beyond Tuck's fear of Debbie, an emotional level exists between that devotion on the one hand and logic or reason or even paranoia on the other. (You haven't argued otherwise, of course.) It's the level, among other things, that creates Tuck's need for Valerie's continued existence.

When Debbie and Sarah square off, Tuck goes through a convoluted internal monologue to convince himself that keeping the job and thus remaining Valerie is a way of fighting Debbie rather than agreeing with her. That certainly doesn't qualify as logic; even Tuck, if he thought about it later (which he almost certainly wouldn't do unless forced to), would probably recognize that any resemblance between logic and his decision was superficial at best.

It seems clear to me that he felt a strong emotional need, either to keep the Parker job or keep Valerie "real", in whatever sense he considers that to be true, or both. And I think that's an emotional need that doesn't really owe anything to his feelings for Debbie, even though she originally "created" Valerie (for her own emotional reasons, not Tuck's) and later provided the babysitting job.

Eric
Re: More Questions... [message #3054] Sun, 23 January 2005 04:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Eric wrote on Thu, 18 November 2004 04:19

From #107:

Were gonna do a lecture like we did when Tuck got his medical tests back... Which reminded [Susan] that she was supposed to get some results of her own back this weekend.


Anyone figured this one out? I'm not sure whether Susan has had time to initiate anything since she got into town...


It only took me two months, but I think I came up with the answer to that one. From the lecture on Tuck's medical test results:

16:39 25 Sep

...Is, I mean, how can any of this be genetic? Amanda asked. I mean, if you have it, or if Tucks dad has it, wouldnt that sort of prevent you from having children? Mom shrugged. This stuff is strange, and while some of it can come from direct mutation - either in a sperm or an egg - some of it isnt, and some of it is recessive, which means one or the other of us might be a genetic carrier of some of it. And tonight I have to call everyone on my side of the family and tell them about this so they can get tested. Well get tested tomorrow, she told Susan before being drowned in questions and comments and exclamations and noise.


Susan's been out of town since that testing would have taken place, so this would be her first chance to get that answer, assuming it was ready and waiting (so she could get it on the weekend) and hadn't been e-mailed to her already.

That still leaves open the question of what Trish was trying to find out on the phone with Sarah:
from #106

Trish, I- Sarah, you cant just LEAVE things like this- I dont damn well KNOW anything! They didnt call Friday, she said even as she realized they might have and everyone had missed it in the confusion.

It seems unlikely to be related to the tests, though. If Trish and Amy had been tested right away at home (which doesn't seem all that likely since it's not an emergency), I can't see any reason the Tuckers would be involved in getting the information.

Eric
Fixing the Door [message #3138] Wed, 09 February 2005 05:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Tuck's door seems to have gotten repaired in a couple of installments: first, getting the door to close but not lock, and then getting the locks replaced or repaired during the day he ends up in the hospital...
20:44 6 Oct

Id wondered where Mom was, since she wasnt around, but finally I found out, when I aurally detected her crying in her bedroom. I guessed that was where Dad had ended up too. I went to my room, shut the door, and wondered if I could ever fix this mess.

20:31 8 Oct

Eugene Wallace! I will not TOLERATE that sort of- Fine! I snapped, and turned around and left. Quickly. Mom had had the locks disabled on my room, but I could still wedge the door shut manually.

from #106

Just, uh, have to check on something. Technical. For Tuck,Susan glared at him. Is this one of your little kiddie-ninja things? Yeah, it is, Mike snapped back. He was going to say something more, but she opened the door for him.Hey, can you take a shift today, watching him? Yeah, but I need to do this first. Who, uh, Mister- Yeah, my dad- Should I call him, coordinate with him? Mike asked. Thatd be a good idea, she nodded as she shut and double-locked the door behind him.

[Updated on: Wed, 09 February 2005 06:07]

Re: Fixing the Door [message #3139] Wed, 09 February 2005 06:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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Eric wrote on Wed, 09 February 2005 05:53

Tuck's door seems to have gotten repaired in installments...
20:44 6 Oct


Id wondered where Mom was, since she wasnt around, but finally I found out, when I aurally detected her crying in her bedroom. I guessed that was where Dad had ended up too. I went to my room, shut the door, and wondered if I could ever fix this mess.


20:31 8 Oct

Eugene Wallace! I will not TOLERATE that sort of- Fine! I snapped, and turned around and left. Quickly. Mom had had the locks disabled on my room, but I could still wedge the door shut manually.

from #106

Just, uh, have to check on something. Technical. For Tuck,Susan glared at him. Is this one of your little kiddie-ninja things? Yeah, it is, Mike snapped back. He was going to say something more, but she opened the door for him.Hey, can you take a shift today, watching him? Yeah, but I need to do this first. Who, uh, Mister- Yeah, my dad- Should I call him, coordinate with him? Mike asked. Thatd be a good idea, she nodded as she shut and double-locked the door behind him.




I don't think so. After everyone learned the combination to his door over the summer, the only way he keep those people was with a door wedge. He did that to keep Amy out while he talked ot Travis on several occasions, so that's not something new.

As for the scene in #106, They are having that conversation at the front door of the house, not at the door to Tucks room.
Re: Fixing the Door [message #3143] Wed, 09 February 2005 23:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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maltor wrote on Wed, 09 February 2005 03:07


After everyone learned the combination to his door over the summer, the only way he keep those people was with a door wedge. He did that to keep Amy out while he talked to Travis on several occasions, so that's not something new.

As for the scene in #106, they are having that conversation at the front door of the house, not at the door to Tucks room.

Thanks for the explanation on the second "repair", which sort of takes the steam out of the first one and wipes out the whole assumption.

Still, the situation here is different from Tuck wedging people out who know the combination; it's unclear whether or not the door can actually close:
Quote:

01:21 4 Oct
I was about to shut the door to my room, but it wouldnt shut. I looked around, and Mom was holding it open with her foot. Bill! I dont want this door shut any more either! she yelled over her shoulder.
01:30 4 Oct
Id thought I was cried out before, but when Dad snipped the power cable to the door locks with bolt cutters, I managed to find a few more tears.
13:12 5 Oct
My mother and Debbie were having an argument downstairs, and loud enough I could still hear it from in here. Of course, my door was open because I couldnt lock it any more.

It seems to me that last one is something of a non sequitur if the door can in fact close and stay closed on its own; a locked door doesn't keep sound out better than an unlocked door does.

Tuck was able to close it 13 minutes later, without mentioning wedges:
Quote:

13:25 5 Oct
I entered the door code as fast as I ever had in my life and then got stuck when the door bolts didnt clack open. *Fuck!* I finally remembered, and just opened the door and zipped inside, then closed it to keep the noise down.

...but Brian could either open it or look through the open doorway that night:
Quote:

23:17 5 Oct
...Brian peeked in, and I had to fight an urge to just slam the door into his face. It hadnt been HIM that had ordered the door permanently broken...

Tuck DOES close the door, with no mention of wedges, on October 6 (20:44), but has to resort to them on the 8th:
Quote:

20:31 8 Oct
Mom had had the locks disabled on my room, but I could still wedge the door shut manually.


If the door LATCH has been removed along with the two locks, I guess the whole thing works: in that case the door could close but not STAY closed. That assumes that Tuck does use wedges even when he doesn't mention them, and that he's too stressed to think of doing so on 10/5.

Eric
Re: Fixing the Door [message #3156] Thu, 10 February 2005 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BubbleEntity  is currently offline BubbleEntity
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Eric wrote on Thu, 10 February 2005 17:38



If the door LATCH has been removed along with the two locks, I guess the whole thing works: in that case the door could close but not STAY closed. That assumes that Tuck does use wedges even when he doesn't mention them, and that he's too stressed to think of doing so on 10/5.

Eric



um, they way i read it, that door would latch with solinoid driven bolts, for which the only sensable setup for it, is that without power, they are spring loaded to unlatch.

thus cutting the power to those soliniods would be enough to stop the locks latching

( maglocks don't go * thunk* , nor are they usualy tough enough to stand up to the kind of force that we have seen this door stand up to )


* is tired, so this may not make sense in and english way, but makes sense in an electro-physics kinda way *
Re: Chapter 106 + 107 [message #5157] Wed, 25 April 2007 00:01 Go to previous message
Kate L.  is currently offline Kate L.
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Horribly belated followup, I blame Tuck-induced lack of sleep for popping in here for the first time.

Eric wrote on Thu, 09 December 2004 02:52

If Sarah did belong to the Weather Underground in college, I doubt that she was a moderating force. Makes you wonder if she's really as "mundane" as Tuck thinks she is, and whether she knows more about the Boyz' "social work" than she lets on.


I could easily see that, though I'd be wary of conflating the Students for a Democratic Society and the Weathermen. The latter were certainly violent, but the SDS they sprang from was a highly mixed bunch. From what I understand my parents were early SDS radicals ('65 or before [*]), but they were pacifists who headed to India when the schism that spawned the Weather Underground & others occurred. She could easily have been quite radical without belonging to the Weathermen or actually advocating violence. As far as the WUO itself, if she was a member and not a moderating influence there's a very high likelihood she'd be dead or in still in jail at the time Susan was born. The actual group was pretty small, though there's some confusion from the period when they'd seized control of some portion of the disintegrating SDS.

On the other hand this would make it likely that Bill couldn't hold a security clearance and thus given him a motivation to go independent (as if he needed more) as well as more cause to be worried about the FBI & such. Another point in favor of her having a very radical, no pacifistic past is what appears to be a pretty casual acceptance of paramilitary training for the children.

My inclination is to believe that she's not particularly mundane, but didn't engage in significant violence in her student days.

[*] Complete with stories about police searches, shot up vote organizing safe-houses in the South, bizarre traffic stops and suspicion of being Communist spies (my grandfather's WWII radio didn't help much).


"I was TOTALLY expecting you to be more work." - AW
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