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The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3301] Fri, 18 March 2005 06:14 Go to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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I decided in the end I had to start getting it out there, and commit myself to the story plan as it currently stands, after two - or was it three? - times I restarted from scratch in the grip of a "better idea". Smile That could go on forever.

So, it's being serialised after all, with the (longish) prologue released today, five chapters currently in the proofing pipeline, and a sixth being worked on. It's primarily being hosted at my own site, which should be linked to my profile but here it is anyway: http://www.strangenoises.org/taken/. The plaintext version should be turning up on Ellen's site later today as well.

Tuck Squared itself is also on the above site. It's been reformatted to match the typeset style of The Taken, but the text is unchanged - even the known errors: I've been expressly forbidden to tinker!

Enjoy, I hope. Smile


Rachel
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3302] Fri, 18 March 2005 07:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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And I thought I was going to get some sleep tonight...

Thanks, Rachel.

Eric
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3303] Fri, 18 March 2005 07:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Eric wrote on Fri, 18 March 2005 12:12

And I thought I was going to get some sleep tonight...

Thanks, Rachel.

Eric


What were you doing still up at that time anyway? Thought I'd timed it for you lot to see it in the morning. Razz


Rachel
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3305] Fri, 18 March 2005 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Well, I'm going to need to re-read the story, and probably T^2 as well, before I'm ready to jump in with all my comments. I will mention that the opening sequence was particulary well done, with a truly impressive level of Nasty Headgames going on.

A very nice start, I look forward to more. Thank you.
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3306] Fri, 18 March 2005 17:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Interesting start. Will there be a bit explaining the whereabouts of Art, Ken and Darla - especially Art? I'm sure you can place Ken and Darryl away somewhere but I would think an explanation of Art would be necessary for rounding the Jane aspect of the story.

I look forward to enjoying your serial....somewhere along the way we see DaBoyz and the Pack take on the local UK scene... Smile
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3307] Sat, 19 March 2005 03:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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First guess on Art: he presumably has a contract to teach at his current location, so he and Jane are temporarily separated during the school year until that runs out. (That was the situation in some of Tigger's stories, if I recall correcctly.)


Well, this is quite clearly prologue. Valerie appears to be doing about as well as anybody could be expected to under the circumstances; but it's also clear she's going to need to figure out longer-term solutions or she's going to lose it sooner or later. Well done, and quite disquieting in it's own way.

It's a little hard to guess where you're going with the story. What is clear is that you've managed to hit some themes that are going to be very interesting to watch develop. What the hell it would really be like to wake up in an parallel universe is not something I've seen before; despite the number of stories I've read that use the parallel universe concept.

More to the point, it's clear that you've come up with a reason to do a follow-up other than just the fact that people want one. This is perhaps more important with T^2 than a lot of stories. T^2, at its heart, was a look at the two different Tuck universes Ellen created, and how they compared. Rather than just write a bunch of discussion board posts on the subject, you put it into an extremely good story. I seriously doubt there's really a lot more to be said on that subject at this point, though. (There may be once we get a bit further into the main universe and the revision, but not yet.) So a follow up to the story needs to find it's own reason to be written; it appears you have some intersting ideas in that regard.

I'm eagerly awaiting more. Thank you.
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3309] Sun, 20 March 2005 01:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Re-reading Tuck Squared while waiting for the next chapter of The Taken.

And I hit the bit in chapter 4 where Mike shows up at the treehouse. And Valerie gets him to come in.

"Tuck Squared, chap 4"

"Come in Mike," said Tuck's double. Or near-double.

"Uh," was all he could say.

"Think of me as a vision, if it helps you to accept me. But come in."


For some reason my mind flashed on Count Dracula: "Enter freely, and of your own will."
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3315] Thu, 24 March 2005 03:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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I really don't have anything new to say about the story today. It just seems to me like there has been suprisingly little said about it, so I wanted to post something that would show up on the "Today's posts" and possibly get another comment or two. Perhaps even call it to the attention of people who missed it coming out during the weekend. We want to say nice things to Rachel about her wonderful story, so she will share more of it with us. Smile
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3316] Thu, 24 March 2005 09:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Leesya  is currently offline Leesya
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OtherEric wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 03:04

I really don't have anything new to say about the story today. It just seems to me like there has been suprisingly little said about it, so I wanted to post something that would show up on the "Today's posts" and possibly get another comment or two. Perhaps even call it to the attention of people who missed it coming out during the weekend. We want to say nice things to Rachel about her wonderful story, so she will share more of it with us. Smile



Everyone is too busy hitting Shift Reload on the Writings page, though I agree that Rachel is due more "Thanks".

So, he're two questions. Is the Val who helped Jane in selecting the dress for Valerie in England (Ve) the same Val we saw in T^2, and what happened to Val in T^2 when Valerie in Ohio (Vo) didn't "slide"?

Shocked
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3317] Thu, 24 March 2005 09:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Leesya wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 14:02

OtherEric wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 03:04

I really don't have anything new to say about the story today. It just seems to me like there has been suprisingly little said about it, so I wanted to post something that would show up on the "Today's posts" and possibly get another comment or two. Perhaps even call it to the attention of people who missed it coming out during the weekend. We want to say nice things to Rachel about her wonderful story, so she will share more of it with us. Smile



Aw gee, and I thought everyone hated it... Wink

I took it to mean that this is just a prologue and people are waiting to see what happens next. I did deliberately leave open a number of different ways the story will progress. Tuck Squared had the benefit of being a complete story.

Leesya

Everyone is too busy hitting Shift Reload on the Writings page, though I agree that Rachel is due more "Thanks".

So, he're two questions. Is the Val who helped Jane in selecting the dress for Valerie in England (Ve) the same Val we saw in T^2, and what happened to Val in T^2 when Valerie in Ohio (Vo) didn't "slide"?

Shocked


Not quite sure I understood the question, but yes, this is a direct sequel to Tuck Squared, so we're talking about the same two Valeries. Obviously, for those people who felt Tuck Squared should have had an ending ( Razz ) this also provides that.

There is a more direct epilogue written, that's set more or less immediately after the end of Tuck Squared, and may get released later. But it would have been a spoiler for the opener to the prologue, so the prologue went out first.


Rachel
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3318] Thu, 24 March 2005 10:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Leesya  is currently offline Leesya
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rachel.greenham wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 09:19

Leesya wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 14:02

OtherEric wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 03:04

I really don't have anything new to say about the story today. It just seems to me like there has been suprisingly little said about it, so I wanted to post something that would show up on the "Today's posts" and possibly get another comment or two. Perhaps even call it to the attention of people who missed it coming out during the weekend. We want to say nice things to Rachel about her wonderful story, so she will share more of it with us. Smile



Aw gee, and I thought everyone hated it... Wink

I took it to mean that this is just a prologue and people are waiting to see what happens next. I did deliberately leave open a number of different ways the story will progress. Tuck Squared had the benefit of being a complete story.

Leesya

Everyone is too busy hitting Shift Reload on the Writings page, though I agree that Rachel is due more "Thanks".

So, he're two questions. Is the Val who helped Jane in selecting the dress for Valerie in England (Ve) the same Val we saw in T^2, and what happened to Val in T^2 when Valerie in Ohio (Vo) didn't "slide"?

Shocked


Not quite sure I understood the question, but yes, this is a direct sequel to Tuck Squared, so we're talking about the same two Valeries. Obviously, for those people who felt Tuck Squared should have had an ending ( Razz ) this also provides that.

There is a more direct epilogue written, that's set more or less immediately after the end of Tuck Squared, and may get released later. But it would have been a spoiler for the opener to the prologue, so the prologue went out first.



Well, since the Vo we meet at the start of the Prologue has been trained by Jane, it appears that Vo is the Valerie from T^2, but Ve talks about letting Marie help her "for old time's sake", so Ve also appears to be forked from the Valerie in T^2.

"Not the one." Smile
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3319] Thu, 24 March 2005 10:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Leesya wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 15:24

rachel.greenham wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 09:19

Not quite sure I understood the question, but yes, this is a direct sequel to Tuck Squared, so we're talking about the same two Valeries. Obviously, for those people who felt Tuck Squared should have had an ending ( Razz ) this also provides that.

There is a more direct epilogue written, that's set more or less immediately after the end of Tuck Squared, and may get released later. But it would have been a spoiler for the opener to the prologue, so the prologue went out first.



Well, since the Vo we meet at the start of the Prologue has been trained by Jane, it appears that Vo is the Valerie from T^2, but Ve talks about letting Marie help her "for old time's sake", so Ve also appears to be forked from the Valerie in T^2.

"Not the one." Smile


Um...

<fx: scratches head/>

Oh, I see what you're thinking! Hmm.

Anyone else confused? I can't explain that without making this post utterly a spoiler. Have another read. Smile

Quote:

"Not the one." Smile


<shrug/> "Either way, is bad for Tucker." "Oh, you mean VALerie. No. That's my sister."

Ach, dammit, I suppose I can't use that joke in the story now. <grumble/>


Rachel
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3320] Thu, 24 March 2005 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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rachel.greenham wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 07:47

Leesya wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 15:24


Well, since the Vo we meet at the start of the Prologue has been trained by Jane, it appears that Vo is the Valerie from T^2, but Ve talks about letting Marie help her "for old time's sake", so Ve also appears to be forked from the Valerie in T^2.

"Not the one." Smile


Um...

<fx: scratches head/>

Oh, I see what you're thinking! Hmm.

Anyone else confused? I can't explain that without making this post utterly a spoiler. Have another read. Smile


I was a bit confused until my second reading made me realize that the nightmare *was* a nightmare. It's a bit "too realistic" (orderly, no odd transistions, too "logical") to catch as a nightmare.

Mind you, if you decided to change anything, I'd suggest that adding something to the "waking from the nightmare" stuff to make it plain that was was being woken from was the preceeding block of text not just some random nightmare (which is what I thought the first time thru)

As for the bit about Marie, that's adequately explained only a few lines on.

rachel.greenham wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 07:47

Quote:

"Not the one." Smile


<shrug/> "Either way, is bad for Tucker." "Oh, you mean VALerie. No. That's my sister."

Ach, dammit, I suppose I can't use that joke in the story now. <grumble/>



Nonsense, *please* use that joke. Please?

Especially since while funny as a "standalone" I suspect it could be anything from extraordinary silliness to gut-wrenching irony in the story depending on the context.

[Updated on: Thu, 24 March 2005 13:54]

Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3321] Thu, 24 March 2005 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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I'll confess something here, I got so confused not realizing that the waking from a nightmare applied to the large previous bit that I stopped reading the story at that point. I just couldn't make the following bits fit with the previous ones and between the two of them, nothing seemed to fit well with what I thought I remembered of T^2.

I think I'll have to go back and re-read the whole thing.

- Erin
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3322] Thu, 24 March 2005 21:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Leesya  is currently offline Leesya
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rachel.greenham wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 10:47


...

Um...

<fx: scratches head/>

Oh, I see what you're thinking! Hmm.

Anyone else confused? I can't explain that without making this post utterly a spoiler. Have another read. Smile

Quote:

"Not the one." Smile


<shrug/> "Either way, is bad for Tucker." "Oh, you mean VALerie. No. That's my sister."

Ach, dammit, I suppose I can't use that joke in the story now. <grumble/>



Go ahead when you get all ten of them together. "No one listens to 'VaLERie'." Smile

Okay, I see it now, though the transition wasn't clear to me at first given my assumption from the end of T^2 that Valerie "slid" back to her rightful universe and left the T^2 Val alone in that world. I read the prologue as somethig akin to a (actually two) new fork and exec(s) to additional possible outcomes. I also just reread the ending of T^2 to find that you'd ended the story at the outside doors, and it was a fanfic that had Val/Valerie entering Shelia's office as the realities realligned.

Ah well. At least we did generate some traffic. Smile

[Updated on: Thu, 24 March 2005 22:31]

Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3323] Thu, 24 March 2005 22:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Am I the only one who liked the opening sequence? I thought it was a particulary good nasty trick. To be fair, I did need to think about it the first time I read it. There are one or two points where it does shift to dream-logic, but they aren't quite obvious the first time.

Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3325] Fri, 25 March 2005 03:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I like the opening. It was just a bit *too* misleading.

And I'm going to be climbing the walls waiting for those chapters to come out of proofing!
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3326] Fri, 25 March 2005 07:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Brooke wrote on Fri, 25 March 2005 08:46

I like the opening. It was just a bit *too* misleading.

And I'm going to be climbing the walls waiting for those chapters to come out of proofing!


It was a tricky line to walk (looks like I slipped a few times). I wanted it to be misleading, for people to think for a bit that was how the story was going to progress. It was actually an alternative scenario I briefly considered *as* the main story, and there was quite a bit more material written in that setting, with Sarah, Bill and especially Brian, which I cut only because it went *way* too 'real' for a dream.


Rachel
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3327] Fri, 25 March 2005 07:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T.  is currently offline T.
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_I_ thought the opening sequence was very effective. It dawned on me about halfway through the dream that that's what it was; I never found it to be confusing.

It did make me think, but IMO that just shows that Rachel has done a superior job. We'll have to pay attention as we read, THAT much is clear!

T.
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3328] Fri, 25 March 2005 18:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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rachel.greenham wrote on Fri, 25 March 2005 04:07

Brooke wrote on Fri, 25 March 2005 08:46

I like the opening. It was just a bit *too* misleading.

And I'm going to be climbing the walls waiting for those chapters to come out of proofing!


It was a tricky line to walk (looks like I slipped a few times). I wanted it to be misleading, for people to think for a bit that was how the story was going to progress. It was actually an alternative scenario I briefly considered *as* the main story, and there was quite a bit more material written in that setting, with Sarah, Bill and especially Brian, which I cut only because it went *way* too 'real' for a dream.



Well, I did figure it out on the second reading. *something* some else said made me go "Huh?" and do the re-read.

I bet a lot of folks would be interested in that extra material.

I daresay you could put together an "out-takes" file or a "The Writing of 'The Taken'" type thing with all the dropped sequences, ideas that didn't pan out, and all that and it'd still be fun to read.

Of course then you might have to deal with folks who try to expand on dropped storylines and the like... Smile
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3330] Sat, 26 March 2005 03:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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OK, I think I got it all now. FWIW, I was much happier with the prologue the second time through; it turned out that just about all my questions were subtly dealt with once I knew what to look for. (I think we even have a pretty good idea now who attacked Valerie, and where, if not exactly when and how.)

(Curious, possibly: a premise of my Five-Tucks-In-Search-of-a-Plot fanfic (still grounded) was that Jane Thompson-1 et al. didn't exist until Valerie-2 materialized. That may have led me astray my first time through the nightmare here. It certainly, as it turns out, sent me in a different direction from the one in which Rachel was (mis)directing us.)

One question, a consequence of my still not having read Tigger's Seasons stories: would it make sense for Darla to serve as Jonathan's big sister if/when she arrived later?

Eric
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3337] Sat, 26 March 2005 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Eric wrote on Sat, 26 March 2005 00:06

OK, I think I got it all now. FWIW, I was much happier with the prologue the second time through; it turned out that just about all my questions were subtly dealt with once I knew what to look for. (I think we even have a pretty good idea now who attacked Valerie, and where, if not exactly when and how.)


Huh? Color me confused.

We know where Val (mainstream Tuck) was attacked, and when, and (mostly) who.

Valerie (Seasons Tuck, via Tuck squared) wasn't attacked but her Universe's George was (see Tuck Squared).

Well, ok, a lot depends on *how* you mean attacked. Mainstream Tuck gets attacked a lot, but there are only two Attacks (that we know of). The one in Junior high when he got thrown into the girls bathhroom and got roken bones and the like. And the one that happened in Tuck103.

But I get the impression that you are thinking that the Valerie in the Prologue to The Taken has been attacked *since* the events of Tuck Squared.

If so, I don't see it. I see her having problemsdue to seperation from Mike (which one is a good question) and other "issues".

Eric wrote on Sat, 26 March 2005 00:06

(Curious, possibly: a premise of my Five-Tucks-In-Search-of-a-Plot fanfic (still grounded) was that Jane Thompson-1 et al. didn't exist until Valerie-2 materialized. That may have led me astray my first time through the nightmare here. It certainly, as it turns out, sent me in a different direction from the one in which Rachel was (mis)directing us.)


That'd require a *lot* of "adjustments" to the timeline. Ones going back as far as Jane's birth or farther.

Eric wrote on Sat, 26 March 2005 00:06

One question, a consequence of my still not having read Tigger's Seasons stories: would it make sense for Darla to serve as Jonathan's big sister if/when she arrived later?


Darla tends to be used as a big sister when there in't a regular student available for the job.

But she's also going to college as Darryl. Which complicates things.
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3338] Sat, 26 March 2005 21:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Brooke wrote on Sat, 26 March 2005 17:34



Eric wrote on Sat, 26 March 2005 00:06

One question, a consequence of my still not having read Tigger's Seasons stories: would it make sense for Darla to serve as Jonathan's big sister if/when she arrived later?


Darla tends to be used as a big sister when there in't a regular student available for the job.

But she's also going to college as Darryl. Which complicates things.



Not to mention that Jane has relocated her school across the ocean to the UK and for all we know Daryl and Art are still living in the States.

It does bring up some interesting things now that Jane has relocated in this universe. It's seems highly unlikely that Darryl or Ken will meet their future wives now. Well maybe Darryl could, but not Ken.
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3339] Sun, 27 March 2005 04:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Brooke wrote on Sat, 26 March 2005 17:34

I get the impression that you are thinking that the Valerie in the Prologue to The Taken has been attacked *since* the events of Tuck Squared.

If so, I don't see it. I see her having problemsdue to separation from Mike (which one is a good question) and other "issues".

Maybe I'm completely off base (or the UK equivalent). I suppose it COULD just stem from persistent nightmares of the type we see at the start of the prologue here.

But Valerie wasn't reacting like this (to strangers, jocks, high school in general) or requiring a mental emulation of Mike-2 in order to remain alert to potential threats, during Tuck Squared. I'll be very surprised if she didn't get physically attacked by high school jocks -- McAllen's, Red Bluff's or some combination -- in Tuckerville-1 between the end of Tuck Squared and the start of The Taken, possibly having been misled when the counterpart of someone who was harmless or helpful in her world turned out to be otherwise here.

(My guess is that it happened after she got set up with Jane, when it became necessary for some reason to return briefly to Val's neighborhood; otherwise she'd have been carrying ID with the Tucker address on it and it would have been more difficult, assuming the attack was as serious as I'm theorizing that it was, not to alert Bill and Sarah Tucker.)

Brooke, continued

Eric wrote on Sat, 26 March 2005 00:06

...a premise of my Five-Tucks-In-Search-of-a-Plot fanfic (still grounded) was that Jane Thompson-1 et al. didn't exist until Valerie-2 materialized.

That'd require a *lot* of "adjustments" to the timeline. Ones going back as far as Jane's birth or farther.

And/or a more flexible Tuck-1 world than we've been led to expect. Which is why I got surprised when I thought that Rachel's take on it headed in that direction (which wasn't the case). But don't forget that Valerie's -- and her motorcycle's -- existence here ALREADY establishes the Tuck Squared version of the Tuck-1 worldline as a lot more flexible than Ellen's realistic background in the original story would lead us to expect.

Eric
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3342] Sun, 27 March 2005 17:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Eric wrote on Sun, 27 March 2005 01:19

Brooke wrote on Sat, 26 March 2005 17:34

I get the impression that you are thinking that the Valerie in the Prologue to The Taken has been attacked *since* the events of Tuck Squared.

If so, I don't see it. I see her having problemsdue to separation from Mike (which one is a good question) and other "issues".

Maybe I'm completely off base (or the UK equivalent). I suppose it COULD just stem from persistent nightmares of the type we see at the start of the prologue here.

But Valerie wasn't reacting like this (to strangers, jocks, high school in general) or requiring a mental emulation of Mike-2 in order to remain alert to potential threats, during Tuck Squared.


She hadn't been seperated from Mike for *months* at that time either.

Also, she's in a "school" situation (no matter how she tries to tell herself otherwise) with out any backup. No one *at hand* to call for help or to cover her back.

That means her subconcious is probably a gibbering wreck and stressed out as hell. Because regardless of the objective degree of safety, *subjectively* she's spending much of her day in an extremely dangerous environment without adequate safety measures.

In Tuck Squared, she was either alone on the road (safer), with Jane (safe), or with Tuck & co.

Her reactions aren't that out of line given past experiences in the timelines before the split. This is a novel situation and Valerie has no experience in a "school without backup" situation other than at Jane's which is too different to count.

Other than the "Mike emulation" her reactions aren't that different from *mine* in a "new" social situation. Of course, I've got Social Phobia and Social Anxiety Disorder (and a bit of PTSD). But given Tuck's past, he's got far more reason to have them than *I* do.

And BTW, I'm not sure that's a "Mike emulation". It could be multiple personality brought on by the stress.

Eric wrote on Sun, 27 March 2005 01:19

Brooke, continued

Eric wrote on Sat, 26 March 2005 00:06

...a premise of my Five-Tucks-In-Search-of-a-Plot fanfic (still grounded) was that Jane Thompson-1 et al. didn't exist until Valerie-2 materialized.

That'd require a *lot* of "adjustments" to the timeline. Ones going back as far as Jane's birth or farther.

And/or a more flexible Tuck-1 world than we've been led to expect. Which is why I got surprised when I thought that Rachel's take on it headed in that direction (which wasn't the case). But don't forget that Valerie's -- and her motorcycle's -- existence here ALREADY establishes the Tuck Squared version of the Tuck-1 worldline as a lot more flexible than Ellen's realistic background in the original story would lead us to expect.


Actually, I just realized that we have a good argument *against* that sort of widespread adjustment. If things were going that far, why didn't Valerie's cell phone work?

In any case, there's no way to tell the difference between a universe where Jane & co always existed, one where it was retro actively adjsted to add them, and one that was created at the start of Tuck Squared with interval evidence of being as old as our universe. Not from the inside anyway.
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3343] Sun, 27 March 2005 18:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Brooke wrote on Sun, 27 March 2005 14:07

Actually, I just realized that we have a good argument *against* that sort of widespread adjustment. If things were going that far, why didn't Valerie's cell phone work?

Because this universe's equivalent of that cellphone account hadn't been activated yet. Or because first-order Valerie insertions -- items that came directly with her -- operate under different logic from second-order effects like Jane and her environment, which are implied into being rather than imposed from outside. Or because, as Jane suggests in Tuck Squared, Valerie's insertion was part of a plan -- and this particular planner doesn't necessarily play fair.

Brooke, continued

In any case, there's no way to tell the difference between a universe where Jane & co always existed, one where it was retroactively adjusted to add them, and one that was created at the start of Tuck Squared with internal evidence of being as old as our universe. Not from the inside anyway.

True, of course. But in a universe like Tuck Squared, I think we have reason to expect an eventual explanation for Valerie's insertion (or creation; we don't KNOW that her memories of her universe are "real" in the story's terms, though the new story title certainly provides more reason to think so). And it's almost certain that such an explanation will have to be generated from outside.
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3345] Mon, 28 March 2005 23:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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I thinking that the dream sequence is a cheap way for the author to show us what's going on inside the characters head. It can be done effectivly, as ellen sometimes prooves.

Ellen's dream sequences are usualy only a pargraph or two long. and tucks dreams tend to have a lot of discontinuity and horror, so it's easy to tell it's a dream. stuff like running from aliens while in a prom dress.
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3364] Fri, 01 April 2005 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Eric wrote on Mon, 28 March 2005 00:23

But in a universe like Tuck Squared, I think we have reason to expect an eventual explanation for Valerie's insertion


I think you are quite wrong; no explanation is needed, nor do I think one is desirable. It may come that Rachel writes one, and of course everyone is free to speculate, or even to write a fanfiction providing an explanation. But your expectation, that one will or 'must' (implied, I think, in your statement) be provided, is quite wrong.

There are plenty of examples of good stories that do not provide a justification for their 'one amazing thing' (science fiction or speculative fiction general rule: you are allowed one totally amazing thing, if everything else makes 'normal sense') and 'merely' go on to explore the ramifications of that one amazing thing.

Rachel's 'one thing' builds upon another 'one thing' of mine. Mine is/was that Jane Thompson and the Seasons universe exists and is workable roughly as written. In 'reality' I think that such a course of action as Jane Thompson inflicts would result in a terrifying amount of psychological damage; nevertheless, for the speculative fiction work "Tucky Seasons" that is my one thing. Rachel's 'one thing' can be expressed as "What if the Valerie from the Jane Thompson universe met another Valerie from a different universe?"

"Why did this happen?" is an entirely separate question and answer than the above question "What if...?" and the story Rachel is writing that is intended to answer that "What if...?" question.


Ellen
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Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3365] Sat, 02 April 2005 07:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Ellen, I agree completely with you about the general principle you expressed, and can accept that it applied to Tuck Squared. While I'd have liked to know how Valerie-2 got to Tuck's universe, the answer wasn't essential to the story, and to the extent that it would have refocused attention out of the continuum where the action took place, it could have been distracting or counterproductive.

But Tuck Squared is over, and Valerie's still here. Furthermore, while it may be premature of me to assume it -- this was a Prologue, not Chapter One -- I'm expecting this to be a story "about" Valerie, in a character-development sense, where T^2 was a story "about" Tuck/Val.

One of the most important things we know about Valerie -- arguably, the defining point of her character here -- is that she doesn't feel she belongs in the Tuck-1 universe and doesn't know how she got there or why she's (still) there. While the story is likely to be about her learning to accept that as a given and finding (or failing to find) a way to proceed productively from there, it seems to me that both she and the reader would benefit from more fundamental answers to her questions.

Eric
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3366] Sat, 02 April 2005 10:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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In response to Ellen's "what instead of why" posting, I have a hard and fast rule. 'Never ask what or why until I am sure of where and when [I am coming from/I am]. Since the two prerequisites have never occured simultaneously, I have been spared all those troubling whys & whats.
Who says ignorance ain't bliss?!?!?!?!!
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3368] Sat, 02 April 2005 11:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Eric wrote on Sat, 02 April 2005 04:46

it seems to me that both she and the reader would benefit from more fundamental answers to her questions.


I need to disagree here. The dimension hopping is just the Macguffin; how Valerie deals with it is (or seems likely to be) the story. Given the first story, it would not suprise me to learn that Rachel has no idea how the dimension jump occured, just that it did. And creating a reason could easily derail the story from what it's really about.

Which isn't to say Rachel can't give us a reason if she wants to, or even that it won't wind up being important in the story.

What I think is somewhat more likely in that direction: the title of the story is The Taken; that could be a plural as or more easily than just refering to Valerie.
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3369] Sat, 02 April 2005 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Eric wrote on Sat, 02 April 2005 13:46

... it seems to me that both she and the reader would benefit from more fundamental answers to her questions.


It's entirely possible that Valerie would benefit from such. Life, however, often sucks. As a partisan (or Paisan) for realism, I think it entirely possible that a character, like you or me or any real person, could find no definitive answer to a particular "WHY??!?"

As for "the reader"... there isn't one.

Not ONE, like the term THE READER implies with its singular form. There's lots of readers (more than would fit into my hovel easily, anyway), and I've noticed that they have widely diverging opinions about what they want and what they like or dislike.


Ellen
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Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3370] Sat, 02 April 2005 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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The premise of "Tuck Squared" brings naturally a number of questions:

-How did Valerie ("Valerie-2", "Valerie Thompson," "The one from Tucky Season") jump universes?
-Why did Valerie jump universes?
-Is there an intelligence behind the transposition? (like God, or Ziggy from "Quantum Leap")
-If so, what are its goals?
-If/when these goals are achieved, will Valerie jump back?
-If this is a random fluke, is there any chance of Valerie jumping back to her universe?
-Is there still an universe for Valerie jump back to? (There might not be, SF clichés have a number of ways of dealing with it; Valerie might have been "saved" from the timeline being rewritten, for instance)
-What about other people jumping -- like, say, Tuck/Val going "back" to Valerie's universe instead of her?
-Are there more universes? What about both of them "jumping" to find primary-universe-Tuck at the hospital?
-Are there infinite universes?

Now, many of these are interesting questions. Should all of them be answered? Maybe, maybe not; that's a choice for the writer. Both answering them and not answering them have their points:
Answering some or all of the questions brings some sense of closure to the story -- meaning, at least, that Valerie can carry on with her life without being plagued by doubts.

OTOH, answering would probably need the introdution of some sort of "Deus Ex Machina" -- somebody who COULD figure out what's happening, which, given the known state of the science in 1998, means some sort of non-realistic individual (An alien? A god? A Mad Scientist? A magic user... hmmm, that's a thought, let's come back to this later...), which goes against the overall tone of the Tuck saga. It could conceivably turn Tuck into a "Sliders" clone, which is probably not what Rachel intended.

The best way, if possible, of answering those questions would be by the use of elements already present in the story. Which brings me back to that magic user above...

You see, there is some precedents to magic in the Tuck multiverse:
- There's a fanfic called "Tuck and the Wizard," where Tuck visits the Spells 'R Us store. Very weak, I know, but...
- There's also a story by Ellen called "Bikini Beach: All Tucked Up". This means there should be at least one of the parallel Tuckverses where magic does exist. It could be even Valerie's original universe, since it is a branch of the "Tuck Season" universe...
- And most important of all because it is canon, there is the mystic/empathic/telepathic/whatever link that Tuck and Mike share.

So, if Rachel wishes to, there is a way to bring a Deus Ex into the story which does not contradict TOO much the previous stories. Whether she will do so remains to be seen. I, for one, am waiting.


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3372] Sat, 02 April 2005 23:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Sir Lee wrote on Sat, 02 April 2005 14:59

- And most important of all because it is canon, there is the mystic/empathic/telepathic/whatever link that Tuck and Mike share.


And we have one "proof" of the reality of the link in canon.

tuck28 The Final Cut

***

"Try north."
"Why?"
"Just a feeling, George. Come on."

***

Tuck stared at the familiar car as it cruised slowly past.
Bastard, he thought, and concentrated on blanking out his thoughts. The
only one that washed over him, that he couldn't get rid of, was How did
he find me?

***

"Damnit!"
George just looked in the mirror at Mike.
"He's blocking me somehow. That fuckhead." Mike slammed a fist
into the seat. "Why is he doing this?!"

***


There's no way to explain that sequence without their link being *something* real.
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3374] Sun, 03 April 2005 04:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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OtherEric wrote on Sat, 02 April 2005 08:29

Given the first story, it would not surprise me to learn that Rachel has no idea how the dimension jump occured, just that it did.

One thing that I think you and others here are overlooking is that this isn't just a "drop Valerie in another dimension and take it from there" story cycle.

Valerie's black-dyed hair has an unnatural shimmer in certain light that doesn't match her memory of her previous existence and which she strongly suspects can't be duplicated by normal means. In story terms, this NEEDS to take us somewhere, eventually. (Even an anticlimactic discovery that Valerie's advice to Mary actually works wouldn't explain how Valerie's hair got that way.) At the very least, it's another One Thing, which is arguably one too many.

But I think its existence implies that Rachel DID have a mechanism in mind here. And while it's not impossible that like the half-charm on the necklace it's simply there for the Right Person to discover, it suggests that when Valerie and we learn more about its purpose, we'll all know more about why or how she's there.

Sir Lee wrote on Sat, 02 April 2005 14:59

...some precedents to magic in the Tuck multiverse:
...most important of all because it is canon, there is the mystic/empathic/telepathic/whatever link that Tuck and Mike share.

More to the point, I think, that link is expanded upon in Tuck Squared: the knife incident while Valerie's at Jane's, and then the burning of Tuck's hand to bring Mike back to the treehouse.

Which leads to the possibility that there's some way, in story terms, to expand the Mike-2 who was in Valerie's mind in the school cafeteria into a real link to the Mike-2 in Valerie's continuum. (Clearly, it's not such a link, now.)

As Sir Lee said, we'll see how it goes.

Eric
Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3378] Sun, 03 April 2005 06:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Eric wrote on Sun, 03 April 2005 00:07

OtherEric wrote on Sat, 02 April 2005 08:29

Given the first story, it would not surprise me to learn that Rachel has no idea how the dimension jump occured, just that it did.

One thing that I think you and others here are overlooking is that this isn't just a "drop Valerie in another dimension and take it from there" story cycle.

Valerie's black-dyed hair has an unnatural shimmer in certain light that doesn't match her memory of her previous existence and which she strongly suspects can't be duplicated by normal means. In story terms, this NEEDS to take us somewhere, eventually. (Even an anticlimactic discovery that Valerie's advice to Mary actually works wouldn't explain how Valerie's hair got that way.) At the very least, it's another One Thing, which is arguably one too many.

But I think its existence implies that Rachel DID have a mechanism in mind here. And while it's not impossible that like the half-charm on the necklace it's simply there for the Right Person to discover, it suggests that when Valerie and we learn more about its purpose, we'll all know more about why or how she's there.


Re-read Tuck Squared *carefully*. Note the clues and then ask Rachel privately. She might just tell you if you are right. Smile

<cue X-Files music>

"the Truth is out there"

Re: The Taken: Prologue ("Don't ever let her back.") - Tuck Squared sequel begins [message #3474] Sat, 30 April 2005 16:09 Go to previous message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Word to the wise: head on over to Rachel's site.

(Not that I've read it yet, I just saw that it was posted...)

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