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Tuck and Jill [message #241] Tue, 08 October 2002 11:04 Go to next message
lykofos
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Re-reading the last dozen or so chapters of Tuck (as I inevitably do while waiting for the next chapter), I can't help but find myself wondering...

The dresses, the kisses, the teasing, the makeup. Is it just me, or might there be something growing between the two of them, that neither of them (or anyone else in the Pack) seem to be aware of yet?
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #243] Tue, 08 October 2002 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maynard  is currently offline Maynard
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I think that the fact of shared incidents and now shared class experience there is something brewing. Tuck/Val has been involved with Jill for quite awhile (remember the kissing experiment with Kim and Jill). Jill has a bit of that dual nature that might appeal to Tuck.

I do not know where it is going, but that relationship is closer than with any one else in the Pack.


Maynard
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #246] Wed, 09 October 2002 00:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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If something went wrong with the Travis romance, I could see Tuck crying on Jill's shoulder, but I dunno. Val needs a girlfriend, someone who is her confidant in the way Eugene has Mike. There are just things Tuck can't talk to Mike about comfortably.

A romance between Tuck and Jill I wouldn't see as being much more than a bit of experimentation on their part. My opinions of course.

- Erin
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #248] Wed, 09 October 2002 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ChangelingJane
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I'd have to agree with erin. But I just can't picture Val with anybody but Travis ^_^


-ChangelingJane-
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #522] Tue, 12 November 2002 12:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lykofos
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"As Jill tried to think of a comeback, Mike
said, 'You should get married.'
'What?!' we both protested. "Who?' Jill
demanded."
Smile
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #527] Tue, 12 November 2002 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
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lykofos wrote on Tue, 12 November 2002 11:37

"As Jill tried to think of a comeback, Mike
said, 'You should get married.'
'What?!' we both protested. "Who?' Jill
demanded."
Smile


Heh, poor Mike Rolling Eyes hasn't accepted/figured it out yet that Valarie is all girl inside (Valarie hasn't fully figured it out either yet, but Jill knows Shocked ). Jill is just a very close friend, someone you share your innermost feelings and thoughts with that can understand you and listen to where your heart is without passing judgement.
Of course Mike was kidding, wasn't he ? But it is a comment that the two girls are good friends.


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #532] Tue, 12 November 2002 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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if tuck starts a purge, jill would be great for him to date for a while. they DO have a lot in common. she gets along well with Da Boyz, and best of all, he wouldn't be reminded of the makup and clothes and stuff that he was trying to avoid.

now, as for if it would ever happen. before last episode i would have said it was very unlikely. but now... it MIGHT happen. especialy if tuck decided to play matchmacker like tuck and deb did to him and kim.

i don't know. it's unlikely still. but it stil might be. but only if tuck starts a purge.
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #533] Tue, 12 November 2002 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Vicki wrote on Tue, 12 November 2002 18:37

lykofos wrote on Tue, 12 November 2002 11:37

"As Jill tried to think of a comeback, Mike
said, 'You should get married.'
'What?!' we both protested. "Who?' Jill
demanded."
Smile


Heh, poor Mike Rolling Eyes hasn't accepted/figured it out yet that Valarie is all girl inside (Valarie hasn't fully figured it out either yet, but Jill knows Shocked ). Jill is just a very close friend, someone you share your innermost feelings and thoughts with that can understand you and listen to where your heart is without passing judgement.
Of course Mike was kidding, wasn't he ? But it is a comment that the two girls are good friends.


Don't forget Mike was still tripping out at this point. It's a toss-up as to whether to dismiss it as delusional raving, or take it as deeper insight. We've had signals of some psychic ability in Mike before (eg: when Tuck first went missing).

*plus* now we know Travis *is* going to want kids at some point... Change is in the air...


Rachel
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #534] Tue, 12 November 2002 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
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rachel.greenham wrote on Tue, 12 November 2002 15:56


Don't forget Mike was still tripping out at this point. It's a toss-up as to whether to dismiss it as delusional raving, or take it as deeper insight. We've had signals of some psychic ability in Mike before (eg: when Tuck first went missing).

*plus* now we know Travis *is* going to want kids at some point... Change is in the air...



It is possible that Valarie will get the "dear Jane" letter from Travis? But Valarie wants kids too doesn't she ? It hurts knowing that you cannot ever have children and be forever barren. Perhaps Valarie is more endowed than she thought with a womb as well as functioning ovaries ? On the other side Valarie and Trevor could adopt, that is if they stay together until after Valarie gets out of college. I cannot remember any mention of Trevor's education level. I do not remember if he even has an High School education or not. If he does is he just holding down a temporary job until he goes off to college himself ? Or no college but Valarie is going without him to college herself ? What of Trevor while she is gone ? Oh my I am so confused :/. . . I will leave it up to Auntie Ellen hehe.


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #536] Tue, 12 November 2002 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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BethR wrote on Tue, 12 November 2002 23:15

Vicki wrote on Tue, 12 November 2002 17:00

...
On the other side Valarie and Trevor could adopt,
...
Oh my I am so confused :/




Hey Vicki... you ARE confused! His name is Travis, not Trevor Wink

Have a nice cup of tea and light some candles. Relax a while. It always helps Smile

Take Care!


Oh but he is a Trevor isn't he. Boring goody-goody.

/me stirs the pot...
Twisted Evil


Rachel
Glowing Bright Red about Tuck and Jill [message #537] Tue, 12 November 2002 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
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BethR wrote on Tue, 12 November 2002 17:15

Vicki wrote on Tue, 12 November 2002 17:00

...
On the other side Valarie and Trevor could adopt,
...
Oh my I am so confused :/




Hey Vicki... you ARE confused! His name is Travis, not Trevor Wink

Have a nice cup of tea and light some candles. Relax a while. It always helps Smile

Take Care!


I am soooooooo embarassed. . . How could I have made such a mistake ? Tea, candles some nice mood music and a hot bath should relax me a bit. . I still can't believe I did such a thing
*embarassed*

*thinks she will proof read before hitting that submit button

[Updated on: Tue, 12 November 2002 22:10]


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #539] Tue, 12 November 2002 22:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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I think Val is confused, she really doesn't know yet whether she can have kids or not. Only one thing she does know, Eugene cannot be a father, and that is probably what she is thinking about with her mind going round and round on a tiny little pivot of disinformation.

Erin
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #540] Tue, 12 November 2002 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Purge?

Okay, I think you mean as in a TV purge, throwing away all the fem stuff and trying to go with male stuff. I don't think Val is going to do that. I could be wrong, but at this point Val is more real than Eugene in most ways. If Tuck purges it's likely to be of Eugene stuff. Fer goodness sake, she's wearing girl pants to school even as Eugene. Smile

Erin
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #542] Wed, 13 November 2002 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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it might not be rational. it definantly wouldn't be easy for him. but with Da Boyz influence and help, it might happen. they have been trying to get him to stop being val for a long time. he feels a sence of duty to the parkers for taking that job, and he is still in love with travis. but he could date travis as a guy, maybe. atleast his freinds might convince him of that. tuck might go into denial of his problems. he could try to over compensate. think that if he just acted more 'like a man' no one would notice his problems. and maybe they will go away.
it's not logical. but how much of what people with gender identity disorderes do is actualy logical.
we already saw tuck holding Da Boyz at gunpoint to get them to compliment his masculinity. what else might he do to make himself feel more like a man? *half jokeing*
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #547] Wed, 13 November 2002 17:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
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Doragoon wrote on Wed, 13 November 2002 09:23

it might not be rational.
it is totally against everything Tuck/Valarie IS
it definantly wouldn't be easy for him. but with Da Boyz influence and help, it might happen.
only if they did a labatomy on Tucker/Valarie she would have to give up everything to hang with da boyz but if you notice she perfers hanging with da girlz
we already saw tuck holding Da Boyz at gunpoint to get them to compliment his masculinity. what else might he do to make himself feel more like a man? *half jokeing*
I did that fearing that if I did not defend my percieved maleness I would get the heck beat out of me

You do love a good impossibility. . . hehe

[Updated on: Wed, 13 November 2002 17:31]


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #552] Wed, 13 November 2002 23:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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> it is totally against everything Tuck/Valarie IS

i'm not sure your idea of who tu-val really is accurate. i mean. i know tu-val wouldn't normaly throw away val's life. but what if tuck started to feel like it was either going to be tuck's life, or val's life that had to go? that he could only be one or the other. da boyz are still not happy with the time he's spending as val right now. how would they react to tuck decideing to be val all the time? and the pack, though they like val, none of them really have been seriously considering tuck being val all the time. it's just a lark, a fun game to play. they can talk with somone from the other side without really having an intruder.
if tuck really wanted to be a girl, he wouldn't be reacting to everything happening in his life the way he has. he wouldn't have been willing to kill himself over just starting to grow breasts.
once tuck is forced to make a decition to go one way or the toher. at this point he will still choose male. he'll have to talk with travis about it. and he'll have to give up his babysitting job. but thats it. for tuck to decide to be a girl, he'd have to give up his past. his expected futre. how'd da boyz take that news. and they have been his frends for years. the ack has only been there since deb. then there's the family. tuck doesn't expect his parants to support that decition. tuck goes with what's easiest. and what's familiar. being male is best on both accounts.
shiela is going to have to get off her but and actualy start pushing tuck somemore if there's going to be any change in any of this. and mike will have to have a talk with tuck and the rest of da boyz. the meeing with the parents on the 27th will hopefully clear up any misunderstandings with tuck's parents. but everyone should understand. it is far from certain that the end of the story will be tuck becmong val full time. my ellen sence tells me it will probably be something more like tuck and his family comeing to an understanding and tuck finding balance in himself. and telling the doctors to go screw themselves. it's his body and he'll let it do what it wants to do. his body his choise.
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #561] Thu, 14 November 2002 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
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Doragoon wrote on Wed, 13 November 2002 22:01

> it is totally against everything Tuck/Valarie IS

i'm not sure your idea of who tu-val really is accurate. i mean. i know tu-val wouldn't normaly throw away val's life. but what if tuck started to feel like it was either going to be tuck's life, or val's life that had to go? that he could only be one or the other. da boyz are still not happy with the time he's spending as val right now. how would they react to tuck decideing to be val all the time?

Now tell me if I am wrong here. . . I so know you will Rolling Eyes

  • how many of da boyz are in Tuck/Val's life as opposed to da girlz ?
  • we are referring to Tuck/Val's existence here not her social life as that will change when high school is over
  • how da boyz feel is irrevelant what is important is how Tuck/Valarie feels as her sex may be percieved as male but her gender is clearly female.
  • as to how they would react to Tuck becoming Val full time if they are her friends they would support her in her decision with love and compassion (of course guys don't have that ability do they?)if they do not support her decision they were not her friends anyway, as friends do not turn away and run when their support is needed.


and the pack, though they like val, none of them really have been seriously considering tuck being val all the time. it's just a lark, a fun game to play. they can talk with somone from the other side without really having an intruder.

- do you remember the incident at the sleepover a few chapters back where tuck disrobes and compares her body with another of the girls? If she was considered from the "otherside" she definately would not have been there at all. If it were a game there would be a major change in voice, stature and emotional attitude. I just don't see two distinct personalities in Tuck/Val.
- What Ellen "barkingduck" says is so true; if you look like a duck, walk like a duck, talk like a duck you are a duck dear !

if tuck really wanted to be a girl, he wouldn't be reacting to everything happening in his life the way he has. he wouldn't have been willing to kill himself over just starting to grow breasts.

- have you ever heard of a thing called gender disphoria ? or such a thing as a transexual ? Biology/instinct tell you being female is needed desperately and the feeling never ever goes away but being raised as male and societies rules says it is taboo.
- Suicide happens probably more than we will ever know because of societies failure to address the needs of the transgendered community. I would in all seriousness recommend that you do some more research on what a transexual is and what a transgendered child goes through growing up.

once tuck is forced to make a decition to go one way or the toher. at this point he will still choose male.

- if Tuck chooses this route with a female body,mannerisms, speech and appearance the life led will be a very sad thing as repression of who you are can be devistating both mentally and physically.

he'll have to talk with travis about it.

- the end of the relationship. . Travis loves Valarie

and he'll have to give up his babysitting job. but thats it. for tuck to decide to be a girl, he'd have to give up his past.

- Val/Tuck loves her job and the children she is helping to raise, as to giving up her past she is still in high school she has no past but a childhood and her only work record is as Valarie. All her legal documentation could be easily changed and on to college and beyond as a girl with no problems. The fact that the principal knows that Valarie exist would only make matters easier for her changing her school records (like she couldn't do it herself)

his expected futre. how'd da boyz take that news. and they have been his frends for years. the ack has only been there since deb. then there's the family. tuck doesn't expect his parants to support that decition. tuck goes with what's easiest. and what's familiar. being male is best on both accounts.

- I politely disagree Smile

shiela is going to have to get off her but and actualy start pushing tuck somemore if there's going to be any change in any of this.

- I agree that some action is needed on both Valarie's and Sheila's part for growth and realizations to blossom

and mike will have to have a talk with tuck and the rest of da boyz. the meeing with the parents on the 27th will hopefully clear up any misunderstandings with tuck's parents. but everyone should understand.

- it is more like Tuck/Val will have a talk with Mike as Tuck/Val holds the cards as to her future Mike is just a friend and hopefully will tell the rest of da boyz what is going on. The meeting with the parentsis needed to clear up things that need to be brought out in the open. I agree if they love Tuck/Val they should be understanding and do what needs to be done for her sanity and survival.

it is far from certain that the end of the story will be tuck becmong val full time. my ellen sence tells me it will probably be something more like tuck and his family comeing to an understanding and tuck finding balance in himself. and telling the doctors to go screw themselves. it's his body and he'll let it do what it wants to do. his body his choise.

- yes I agree we will have to wait and see won't we Very Happy




Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Tuck and Jill [message #583] Fri, 15 November 2002 08:20 Go to previous message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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i think vicki and i have settled our dissagreement on this point in chat.

basicly. it's a differance of behavioral theory. she believes in an instinct theory of motivation. i like the behaviorist theory. she thinks tu-val acts the way he does becouse that's what tu-val was born to do. i believe tuck has been given more attention and compliments and is more apreciated since he started being val. while it's true you can't compleatly ignore the biological side, i think the way people have been reacting to tu-val shows the picture clearer.

there was a LOT more to it than just this. and i might have said it a little wronge. but this is what calmed us down and let us actualy talk to each other. so, flame war has been averted.

if anyone out there wants to know some of the details, feel free to hop on by the chat, i'll be asleap for the next 7-12 hours, but there is usualy somone there, just give them a few min to respond, sometimes it takes them a while.

also, i'm sure ellen is VERY amused at our over-anylysing tuck and the other characters. and if anyone knows anything about psychoanalysis, do you think you could take a crack at tuck, you've got plenty of dreams and history to work with. combine it with your own inductive reasoning. and you should come up with something that will have ellen rolling on the floor. i'm sure we'd all love to hear it.
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