Home » Tuck Fanfic » Other Fanfics » The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate")
The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate") [message #3913] Mon, 25 July 2005 12:32 Go to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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... is out.

I got impatient. Wink By which I mean, it was planned for Friday, but the final proofing passes finished early. I knew if I sat on it until Friday I'd just keep fiddling.

Also, a couple more of Pacchi's pictures she drew for this some time ago, while the story was in development.

(You didn't want to work on a Monday anyway, did you? Twisted Evil)

[Updated on: Mon, 25 July 2005 12:34]


Rachel
Re: The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate") [message #3914] Mon, 25 July 2005 17:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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There's a lot going on. The scenes of Jack and Sara are leaving me wondering where they fit in terms of timeline. Before? After?

And that blood in the sink has me figuring that Nathan has a *bleeding* ulcer. Which can kill him quickly if it isn't caught. It also fits well with the other symptoms.

But I'm far from positive that it's where that blood came from.

Another possibility is that Nathan is cutting. Though that brings up the twin questions of "where" and "with what"?

I'm getting more and more curious regarding Nathan having been excused from PE. I suspect there's a *lot* more to that than Jane knows. Which is yet another land mine awaiting her.

Pity we didn't get to hear the rant at Jane that Nathan can't remember. Wonder if it was Eleanor doing the ranting?

Re: The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate") [message #3920] Mon, 25 July 2005 20:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Brooke wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 14:24

There's a lot going on.

Rachel seems to have mastered the ambiguous plot style that Ellen does so well in Tuck/Valerie stories.
From The Taken - Part 3

"And the buildings move up and down." Nathan found a real smile on his face. "Yeah, it really does that. Sarf-end, innit," he enunciated, to demonstrate the accent properly. She was looking at him, head cocked slightly to one side, the attention making him blush. "What?" he asked eventually.
"Lacuna, huh?"

This looks like a confirmation by Valerie of Nathan's net ego. You'd think that Valerie would know that Lacuna=Jonathan based upon their net conversations...I'm assuming that Valerie is Jester in her other reality. Leaves me to wonder the true relationship of the Valerie/Jane/Nathan interaction and the reason for Nathan being at Miss Jane's. Especially as Valerie got between Nathan and Jane to defend Nathan.
Did Jane discuss the case of Nathan with Valerie before bringing Nathan on as a student? I thought Valerie was to be a civilian in this household and not a direct "big sister", usual to Jane's MO. And, there hasn't been any conversation between Eleanor with either Jane or Marie, where Jane and/or Marie addresses Eleanor by her name, thus it appears that Eleanor is an internalized alter ego of Nathan's, not a big sister of Jane's household....
Of course, Jane may have enlisted Valerie and the above conversation is just to initiate a conversation for Nathan to admit some form of past bad behaviour for Jane to record....

Story's getting interesting... Smile

[Updated on: Mon, 25 July 2005 20:54]

Re: The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate") [message #3926] Tue, 26 July 2005 18:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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lurker wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 17:50


From The Taken - Part 3

"And the buildings move up and down." Nathan found a real smile on his face. "Yeah, it really does that. Sarf-end, innit," he enunciated, to demonstrate the accent properly. She was looking at him, head cocked slightly to one side, the attention making him blush. "What?" he asked eventually.
"Lacuna, huh?"

This looks like a confirmation by Valerie of Nathan's net ego. You'd think that Valerie would know that Lacuna=Jonathan based upon their net conversations...I'm assuming that Valerie is Jester in her other reality. Leaves me to wonder the true relationship of the Valerie/Jane/Nathan interaction and the reason for Nathan being at Miss Jane's. Especially as Valerie got between Nathan and Jane to defend Nathan.


I'd wondered about that bit. I'd forgetten that Lacuna was one of his IDs.

But what *you* have forgotten is that Valerie has limited net connectivity at Jane's. It's *Tuck* that Nathan was talking to on the net.

My guess is that Tuck and Valerie have been exchanging emails and that Valerie only got some of the details that day or the night before.

lurker wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 17:50

Did Jane discuss the case of Nathan with Valerie before bringing Nathan on as a student? I thought Valerie was to be a civilian in this household and not a direct "big sister", usual to Jane's MO. And, there hasn't been any conversation between Eleanor with either Jane or Marie, where Jane and/or Marie addresses Eleanor by her name, thus it appears that Eleanor is an internalized alter ego of Nathan's, not a big sister of Jane's household....


If my conjectures are correct, Eleanor is another *person* sharing the same body as Nathan. What used to be called "multiple personality disorder". It's now called "dissociative identity disorder".

Either way, if that's what's going on, *both* Nathan and Eleanor are *equally* real persons.

I know several folks like that. and it can get "interesting" talking with the "alters". Often different alters "front" (ie are the person interacting with the outside world) depending on what's goiong on.

Some may be protectors. Some may be the result of having to hide parts of the original person (two of the multiples I know are trans, and yes, they have alters that are more than a bit unhappy at the thought of transitioning).

It gets really odd when you are dealing with alters that don't like each other. Since one multiple I know didn't realize that they were multiple until several years after I first got to know them, their being a multiple explained a few things that hadn't made a lot of sense before.

lurker wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 17:50

Of course, Jane may have enlisted Valerie and the above conversation is just to initiate a conversation for Nathan to admit some form of past bad behaviour for Jane to record....


Or it could just be that Tuck has told Valerie and Valerie is curious.

lurker wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 17:50

Story's getting interesting... Smile


*Getting* interesting? It's *been* interesting since the start.

"You are in a maze of twisty passages..."
Re: The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate") [message #3929] Tue, 26 July 2005 20:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Brooke wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 15:50

But what *you* have forgotten is that Valerie has limited net onnectivity at Jane's. It's *Tuck* that Nathan was talking to on the net.

That is what I meant by Valerie is Jester in her other reality . Before she got stuck in the current dimension with the parallel Tuck, Valerie as Jester may have net-chatted with a "Lacuna" in her original reality. She'd recognized this Lacuna from those experiences of the old reality. Confusing huh? We're going to need some code to identify which character is referenced from which reality the way this is going! Confused
How about something like: Tuck(alpha)=Valerie=jester(alpha), Tuck(beta)=Val=jester(beta) original to the current world of UK Jane? Too bad I can't do numerical subscripting or superscripting on this forum. If you guys know how, I'd be interested. Of course, the mathematician types on this forum could go nuts over this and have a field day... Laughing
Maybe Ms. Rachel has a preference? Razz
Brooke also wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 15:50

Or it could just be that Tuck has told Valerie and Valerie is curious.
You may be correct, simplest reason is always the best reason, Tuck and Valerie may have been discussing Lacuna between themselves, although based upon their separate paranoid upbringing by their respective Bill(s), I'm not sure if they would be discussing hacking techniques and of hacking cohorts - they might treat it as classified. It's sort of like Gung Fu, you keep the best parts to yourself for the secret edge, secret even with a parallel persona, because (s)he might be an evil twin. Very Happy
Re: The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate") [message #3932] Wed, 27 July 2005 00:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Brooke wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 19:50

If my conjectures are correct, Eleanor is another *person* sharing the same body as Nathan. What used to be called "multiple personality disorder". It's now called "dissociative identity disorder".


I agree. I'm even going a bit farther here: Jack and Sara are younger versions of Nathan and Eleanor.

Let me elaborate. What we do know:
- He has mentioned his granny a few times. Maybe, when he was little, he was being raised by her -- can't recall mentions of other relatives.
- At some point (when he was about ten years old), he ran from home and apparently lived on the streets for a while, living in a squat with someone older, called Louise.
- Later, he got caught by Social Services.
- Eventually, he was taken in by Lindsey and David, who seem to have given him a fairly nice standard of living.
- Nathan (Jonathan) apparently has a dissociated second identity called Eleanor, who he will sometimes talk to.
- Nathan wears sewed-up boxers. He also got excused from PE.

- Now, Jack (which is a fairly common nickname for John, and conceivably also for Jonathan), was also a runaway about the same age as Nathan.
- Jack talked to his sister, Sara -- but when he asked Louise (notice the name) for help, and got fed, Sara is never mentioned. Sara seems, therefore, to be Jack's alternate identity.
- Jack's Louise also claims to be a runaway.
- When still living with his granny, Jack apparently was known as "Kathryn".
- Jack/Sara seem fairly interested in the concept of the "child stolen by elves" legends and the old practice of dressing small boys in dresses, allegedly to confound the elves.
- Sara mentions that names have power and keeping one's name secret could be a good idea.

My present theory goes as follows:
- A girl called Kathryn lost her parents and was being raised by her grandmother.
- Kathryn was transgendered, and eventually developed a dissociative identity disorder. The dominant identity was a boy called "Jack", with her remaining feminine interests being concentrated in an identity called "Sara", "Jack"'s younger "sister".
- Eventually, Granny passed away, leaving Kathryn with no relatives. Some sort of bad situation followed, leading Kathryn/Jack/Sara to run away. Jack assumes further dominance, and the child begins presenting herself as aboy. Jack was about 10.
- "Jack" meets Louise, who takes him in at her squat for a while. Louise is also a runaway, but seems to be doing better for herself -- however, she came back battered once and didn't want to go to the hospital for fear of the police. She might be a prostitute. Jack assumes the name "Sheo" at this time.
- Jack is taken by the social services and put into the care of Lindsey and David. They have given him a fairly good life for a few years, but they have been running into trouble to discipline him.
- At some point, Sara apparently got replaced by "Eleanor." It may just be that Sara "grew up" and decided to change names, as Jack did once or twice.

Main hole in this theory: how come nobody noticed that Jack had a female body? I mean, at SOME point he must have had to undress for a medical examination, especially right after being taken from the streets. If Lindsey and David DID know, they probably would have briefed Jane -- who would probably alter substantially her traditional program to deal with a child carrying this kind of problems.

The problem is that the alternative theory (Jack was a boy who got abused by his Granny, who raised him as a girl etc...) does not fit well with some other established facts, such as the sewn-up boxers.

More data still needed, but a picture is tentatively emergins...


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate") [message #3937] Wed, 27 July 2005 02:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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lurker wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 17:06

Too bad I can't do numerical subscripting or superscripting on this forum. If you guys know how, I'd be interested.


Well, let's see...

H2O

E=mc2

Easy enough.. (sub)2(/sub) & (sup)2(/sup) just replace the parentheses with square brackets.
Re: The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate") [message #3938] Wed, 27 July 2005 03:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Sir Lee wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 21:20

Brooke wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 19:50

If my conjectures are correct, Eleanor is another *person* sharing the same body as Nathan. What used to be called "multiple personality disorder". It's now called "dissociative identity disorder".


I agree. I'm even going a bit farther here: Jack and Sara are younger versions of Nathan and Eleanor.

Let me elaborate. What we do know:
- He has mentioned his granny a few times. Maybe, when he was little, he was being raised by her -- can't recall mentions of other relatives.
- At some point (when he was about ten years old), he ran from home and apparently lived on the streets for a while, living in a squat with someone older, called Louise.
- Later, he got caught by Social Services.
- Eventually, he was taken in by Lindsey and David, who seem to have given him a fairly nice standard of living.
- Nathan (Jonathan) apparently has a dissociated second identity called Eleanor, who he will sometimes talk to.
- Nathan wears sewed-up boxers. He also got excused from PE.


I wouldn't put *too* much store by those boxers...

Sir Lee wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 21:20

- Now, Jack (which is a fairly common nickname for John, and conceivably also for Jonathan), was also a runaway about the same age as Nathan.
- Jack talked to his sister, Sara -- but when he asked Louise (notice the name) for help, and got fed, Sara is never mentioned. Sara seems, therefore, to be Jack's alternate identity.
- Jack's Louise also claims to be a runaway.
- When still living with his granny, Jack apparently was known as "Kathryn".
- Jack/Sara seem fairly interested in the concept of the "child stolen by elves" legends and the old practice of dressing small boys in dresses, allegedly to confound the elves.
- Sara mentions that names have power and keeping one's name secret could be a good idea.


Maybe. I think there's slightly more evidence of Sara being a seperate human (almost said person Smile.

Sir Lee wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 21:20

My present theory goes as follows:
- A girl called Kathryn lost her parents and was being raised by her grandmother.
- Kathryn was transgendered, and eventually developed a dissociative identity disorder. The dominant identity was a boy called "Jack", with her remaining feminine interests being concentrated in an identity called "Sara", "Jack"'s younger "sister".


With DID, "Jack" would either have not been "front" or would have wanted to know why he was wearing a dress and being called "Kathryn".

Believe me, alters who are conscious of being alters (ie of being part of a collective) get rather vehement about being treated properly. And ones who think they are the only person in the body get rather strident for the obvious reason.

Sir Lee wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 21:20

- Eventually, Granny passed away, leaving Kathryn with no relatives. Some sort of bad situation followed, leading Kathryn/Jack/Sara to run away. Jack assumes further dominance, and the child begins presenting herself as aboy. Jack was about 10.
- "Jack" meets Louise, who takes him in at her squat for a while. Louise is also a runaway, but seems to be doing better for herself -- however, she came back battered once and didn't want to go to the hospital for fear of the police. She might be a prostitute. Jack assumes the name "Sheo" at this time.
- Jack is taken by the social services and put into the care of Lindsey and David. They have given him a fairly good life for a few years, but they have been running into trouble to discipline him.
- At some point, Sara apparently got replaced by "Eleanor." It may just be that Sara "grew up" and decided to change names, as Jack did once or twice.


Assuming you are right, Eleanor would be a *seperate* alter. Alters don't necessarily age at the rate the body does, and often don't age at all from the point they "form". I've had arguments with a 13 or 14 year old female alter of a 30-some year old FtM TS. He's got several other alters, some male, some female.

Sir Lee wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 21:20

Main hole in this theory: how come nobody noticed that Jack had a female body? I mean, at SOME point he must have had to undress for a medical examination, especially right after being taken from the streets. If Lindsey and David DID know, they probably would have briefed Jane -- who would probably alter substantially her traditional program to deal with a child carrying this kind of problems.


He can quite easily be a bio-male with one or more female alters. Which is my current guess.

Sir Lee wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 21:20

The problem is that the alternative theory (Jack was a boy who got abused by his Granny, who raised him as a girl etc...) does not fit well with some other established facts, such as the sewn-up boxers.


Again, I wouldn't rely too much on the boxers. And I wouldn't count on the fact that Jack (who may or may not be Nathan) being Kathryn involved any sort of abuse.

Sir Lee wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 21:20

More data still needed, but a picture is tentatively emergins...


Definitely need more data.

But I'll note that the Jack & Sara on the train seems to fit better if they were other people on the same train as Nathan. Because Nathan "comes back" as the train is pulling into the station. But Jack & Sara see what sounds suspiciously like Jane & Valerie on the platform.

Now, that could be another pair at another station.

Or the "Jack & Sara on train" scene could be something that goes immediately before Nathan "comes back" on the train. Hard to say.

Re: The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate") [message #3939] Wed, 27 July 2005 03:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Eep!

After all that discussion of DID and alters, something intruded into my consciousness.

Folks, look up "lacuna" in a dictionary. Then read up on "missing time" for DID cases. Add in "Context Thread Switch" (another of Nathan's online identiies...)

I begin to wonder if he was trying to clue *himself* in about being a multiple!
Re: The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate") [message #3940] Wed, 27 July 2005 04:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Brooke wrote on Wed, 27 July 2005 08:06

Sir Lee wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 21:20

- Nathan wears sewed-up boxers. He also got excused from PE.


I wouldn't put *too* much store by those boxers...


Brooke is referring to something I told her in private when she was the only one going on about the boxers...

Don't take this as confirmation or denial of any of your theories (I'm loving this), but the sewn-shut boxer thing is misleading because it was a simple error on my part. I thought sewn-shut and not-sewn-shut were simply different variants on the garment and didn't intend it as a gender indicator or 'clue'. So it would be a shame if you built up whole edifices of reasoning based only an error of ignorance.


Rachel
Re: The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate") [message #3941] Wed, 27 July 2005 04:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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lurker wrote on Wed, 27 July 2005 01:06

How about something like: Tuck(alpha)=Valerie=jester(alpha), Tuck(beta)=Val=jester(beta) original to the current world of UK Jane? Too bad I can't do numerical subscripting or superscripting on this forum. If you guys know how, I'd be interested. Of course, the mathematician types on this forum could go nuts over this and have a field day... Laughing
Maybe Ms. Rachel has a preference? Razz


In development I generally refer to V1 for Val, the one indigenous to the world of the story and V2 for Valerie, the one who we're following currently. V0 refers to mainline Tuck, when a reference is needed. You can also use the numerical suffixes to disambiguate any other character, so Sarah1/Sarah2 etc.

V is for Variant, but you can count it as being for Valerie too if you like. You can superscript the numerical suffix if you like but I never have, as they're not raised to a power, they're just alternates. Smile However, I can suddenly see (now!) how the common abbreviation T2 for Tuck Squared coincidentally indicates that, given as it introduces V2 to V1's world. I never made that connection before! Possibly because "Tuck Squared" as a name was only given to that story in the last days before release, and not when the suffix scheme formed.


Rachel
Re: The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate") [message #3946] Wed, 27 July 2005 22:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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rachel.greenham wrote on Wed, 27 July 2005 01:02

Brooke wrote on Wed, 27 July 2005 08:06

Sir Lee wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 21:20

- Nathan wears sewed-up boxers. He also got excused from PE.


I wouldn't put *too* much store by those boxers...


Brooke is referring to something I told her in private when she was the only one going on about the boxers...


Yeah and since it *was* a private message, I couldn't come right out and say you'd said it wasn't "valid". So I had to be a bit oblique about it.

rachel.greenham wrote on Wed, 27 July 2005 01:02

Don't take this as confirmation or denial of any of your theories (I'm loving this), but the sewn-shut boxer thing is misleading because it was a simple error on my part. I thought sewn-shut and not-sewn-shut were simply different variants on the garment and didn't intend it as a gender indicator or 'clue'. So it would be a shame if you built up whole edifices of reasoning based only an error of ignorance.


You are enjoying this *way* too much young lady. Smile
Re: The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate") [message #3955] Thu, 28 July 2005 01:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Brooke wrote on Thu, 28 July 2005 03:40

You are enjoying this *way* too much young lady. Smile


Watching readers stumbling around in the dark and attempting to describe your elephant is one of the perks of being an author; helps pay back for all those hours spent typing and revising.


Ellen
nosig
Re: The Taken: Nathan's Story, part 3 ("Double the chocolate") [message #3964] Thu, 28 July 2005 18:03 Go to previous message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Wed, 27 July 2005 22:57

Brooke wrote on Thu, 28 July 2005 03:40

You are enjoying this *way* too much young lady. Smile


Watching readers stumbling around in the dark and attempting to describe your elephant is one of the perks of being an author; helps pay back for all those hours spent typing and revising.


Why do you think I had a smiley there?

I know that well from my days as a GM. I figure it's like the time I heard the long term players in my campaign describing the more "interesting" details on the map of the area around the ruined castle. And putting in all sorts of details that *I* hadn't ever supplied (and that were in fact *wrong*).

So I can understand how Rachel probably feels. And tease her about the way she doesn't *quite* gloat.
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