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Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4427] Sat, 04 February 2006 08:29 Go to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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I doubt that it's a major revelation for anyone, but in #114, Ellen made it explicit that Kelly considers Tuck a role model.

Kelly is missing one important piece of information about Tuck/Val, however: she doesn't know that Val is dating Travis.

I'm wondering what others think will happen when Kelly finds out about that: I have the feeling that she identifies so strongly with Tuck/Val's presumed lesbian tendencies that she'll find herself feeling devastated or betrayed when she sees Val and Travis together -- possibly to the point of doing something dangerous or foolish.

Eric
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4428] Sat, 04 February 2006 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Renee Mc  is currently offline Renee Mc
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First off, it may be a non-issue. Given all else that has happened and the problems that apeared to be developing before the attack we don't know that Val and Travis's relationship has survived. Let's assume for the moment that is has though and examine the possible consequences.

One clarification, Kelly is quite aware by this time that Tuck is male so there truly aren't any lesbian tendencies for him to be a role model for, not rationally at least. Admittedly Kelly may still subconsciously think otherwise so irrational decisions are always possible.

A:Kelly feels betrayed. Possible consequences- lashing out at friends, lashing out at people already making themselves targets like natalie, suicide attempts, etc.

B:Kelly feels intrigued. By this time she should be aware of enough details of Tuck's past to be reasonably certain that he was intimate with Debbie. Given James probable attraction to her she might decide to experiment with bisexuality.

C:Kelly feels confused. Possibilities- Withdrawl, asking Pack or Boyz for advice, asking Tuck for advice...

D:Kelly is understanding. Tuck is a role model but it stops there. His life is his and hers is hers. Life goes on.

I'm honestly not sure which to lean towards. And, given Ellen's twisty mind, options E, F, and even Z are certainly all possible. Given the strength of character that Kelly seems to have pulled from coming out I feel that betrayal and subsequent collapse are less likely than before. Kelly appears to be pretty balanced now that she's not letting that one fear control her.

$.02

-Renee


fnord*no sig here*fnord
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4574] Mon, 19 June 2006 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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My current thinking, which could change with my next re-reading, is that Kelly will try to pressure Tuck into coming out to the school. Tuck has that obsessive need to help and protect people right now, and Kelly or someone else might be able to convince Tuck that he would be safest if he actually came out. Like with Kelly, Tuck's homosexuality would no longer be something to use against him. But if they DO still use it against him, Dobson has made it clear that gay students must be protected. Though I could also see Tuck over reacting so the jocks might need protection themselves. But Tucks' coming out would encourage more students to come out, which would help more people. Tuck would still draw most of the fire, but as more come out they get added to the mutual protection treaty thing for walking between classes. It already looks like band and drama are one board for joining it or more probably starting one of their own.

Overall, Kelly and tuck's relationship might be strained at first as Kelly feels like she's been encouraged to do something that Tuck is unwilling to do himself. But as long as things stay calm and everyone can think about everything, they will become closer as they battle their opponents together. The worst thing that could happen is if it gets set up so that Tuck feels like he's right and Kelly is being unreasonable in not seeing his side.

Kelly's feelings towards Travis himself if she ever meets him could be mixed. Travis is a peach, but he's also very male. If Kelly is actually physically repulsed by the concept of being with a guy, she would be confused by Tuck, but she'll leave him to it. However, if it's a friendship thing and not a physical attraction thing like she implied earlier, then she might be tempted to try a heterosexual relationship. This would make James happy in the short term because he's the most likely target for a test boyfriend, which is not to say he'll get the part. If she dates someone else instead, and/or decides after trying out that side of the fence that it's not for her, it would have gotten his hopes up just to crush them again.
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4576] Tue, 20 June 2006 03:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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For what it's worth, a federal law passed in the 80s to force schools to allow "non-ciricular" student groups to be able to use school space (it was ntended to force schools to allow bible study groups), got used *before* 1997 to force schools to allow GLBT groups.

Dobson *will* know about this or I'm sure someone else will figure it out as it was a really touchy point in a lot of schools.

Basically, if it's not illegal, then the students can start a club for it. And if the school (or community!) tries to say no, they lose federal education funding,

That's one *hell* a big stick (almost wrote "club" Smile to have at hand.

And we all know that Dobson will do the "We don't really have a choice about this..." bit with anybody who complains.

So the real question is if it'll occur to any of the *students* to form an *official* GLBT group.

Hmmm. Just had a thought. I could almost see certain parties trying to start one *expecting* it to get shot down so they can use that to "fan the flames of discontent".

Imagine their surprise if instead it got an "Ok. Do you have a faculty advisor?"

Club at McAllen [message #4578] Wed, 21 June 2006 03:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Not sure what you're getting at, Brooke. They've been forming the club all weekend, with Rachel's phone calls. True, they haven't made a move to get it santioned yet -- it's way too soon: they need to set it up with relative strength in numbers, rather than Kelly out on a limb alone, waiting to get it sawed off -- but with McAllen in the name they chose, there's certainly an implication that they're headed in that direction.

As you note, Dobson will be friendly (if he avoids getting fired in all the upcoming publicity over his students striking), and the school board and faculty can't afford not to be, given the legal precedent that Dobson quoted in his memo and told Arlene Raleigh.

Eric
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4579] Wed, 21 June 2006 04:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Doragoon wrote on Mon, 19 June 2006 11:45

My current thinking, which could change with my next re-reading, is that Kelly will try to pressure Tuck into coming out to the school.

Seems to me the problem there is that Tuck's current self-image may be as a gay male, but that's not Kelly's view. Her first meetings with Tucker came under circumstances that identified him as a lesbian female passing as male at school, and Tuck has been (perhaps) surprisingly reluctant to change that image in her mind. In any case, Kelly hasn't been given any impression that Tucker's physically attracted to guys; Tuck coming out from her POV would mean identifying as TG -- which would be more confusing than supportive to Kelly and the new gay group.

Unless Kelly considers Tuck a gay male, little of the rest of your reasoning would seem to follow. Even meeting Travis would very likely only revise Kelly's impression of Tucker from lesbian-female to bi-female.

Doragoon, continued:

Kelly's feelings towards Travis himself if she ever meets him could be mixed. Travis is a peach, but he's also very male. If Kelly is actually physically repulsed by the concept of being with a guy, she would be confused by Tuck, but she'll leave him to it. However, if it's a friendship thing and not a physical attraction thing like she implied earlier, then she might be tempted to try a heterosexual relationship.

That seemed to be the point of the Homecoming Dance sequence from Kelly's POV: the more she thought about it afterward, the less she enjoyed a situation geared completely to hetero romance. I can't see her considering a male partner now.

Eric
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4580] Wed, 21 June 2006 15:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

Unless Kelly considers Tuck a gay male, little of the rest of your reasoning would seem to follow.

The question was if she met Travis. I agree she thinks of Tuck as more of a lesbian than a gay man, but that's PURLY because she doesn't know about Travis. Finding out about Travis will completely change her world view.

Quote:

Even meeting Travis would very likely only revise Kelly's impression of Tucker from lesbian-female to bi-female.

I could see the bi-female angle, but I don't think ANYONE will take the trans route. Jack did, but he'd previously known Sheila. Since bi-female would require the jump to TS, I think it's less likely than simply seeing tuck as gay, much the same way tuck did even having met a TS. If they know Tuck is male, they will NOT think of him as female.

Quote:

That seemed to be the point of the Homecoming Dance sequence from Kelly's POV: the more she thought about it afterward, the less she enjoyed a situation geared completely to hetero romance.

That wasn't what I got from that scene at all. I don't think hetero and homosexuality are that separate and individual that they can't exist in the same environment. I think the real reason Kelly was upset was twofold. First, she didn't seem to want to get dressed up, it seemed to be something she was doing for everyone else and while she didn't actively hate it like Jill, she really just didn't feel right in it. Second, I think she's just an introvert and dances like that are VERY extrovert oriented. Dances are about seeing and being seen. She doesn't like people to see her, hence the hiding behind her hair, and she doesn't care about being seen by people she really doesn't care about. She has much more fun when it's just the Pack and Da Boyz.
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4582] Wed, 21 June 2006 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Isn't Kelly in the know about Tuck's intersexuality? That sort of puts Tuck outside the rules about hetero/homo/bi. Tuck's sexuality category is /other/.
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4583] Wed, 21 June 2006 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

Isn't Kelly in the know about Tuck's intersexuality?

Yes, Kelly was there for the lecture.

Quote:

That sort of puts Tuck outside the rules about hetero/homo/bi. Tuck's sexuality category is /other/.

For you it might, but these are normal teenagers in 1997. For most people, sex and gender is set in stone when the doctor signs the birth certificate. Even tuck still identifies as a Gay male. Even if you see tuck as outside normal rules of sexuality, most people will not. They need to have tuck fit into something they know, something they are familiar with. They need their labels. The easiest label to put on tuck is the one he has chosen himself.
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4586] Thu, 22 June 2006 05:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Tuck is peculiarly un-self-aware. I don't think you can generalize from Tuck's own attitudes to everyone else's. For people who have known Tuck as male for a long time, yeah, Tuck's intersex condition is less important than a history of being male.

But for Kelly, the ambiguity of the present seems more prominent than historicity. She's got the best chance of seeing Tuck isolated from preconceptions. She's also intelligent, well-read and an outsider herself.

I don't think she's going to see Tuck as a gay male, I don't think most of the girls see Tuck that way, either. In fact, very few of Tuck's friends are likely to think of him as gay. Tuck is just Tuck to most of them, or Tuck/Valerie to the girls. An individual, not a category.
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4588] Thu, 22 June 2006 19:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

But for Kelly, the ambiguity of the present seems more prominent than historicity. She's got the best chance of seeing Tuck isolated from preconceptions.

But even the members of the pack who think of Tuck as Val and call him "she" think of Tuck as a gay male. The students at McAllen won't think of homosexuality as being that separated from the kind of gender issues that Tuck has been grappling with.

Quote:

An individual, not a category.

Tuck will be an exception to a known rule, not a rule unto himself. Just as a person who thinks all blondes are stupid, when meeting their first intelligent blonde, will make them an exception to the rule without abandoning their original rule. Tuck will be a gay male who happens to have gender issues, not receiving his own category until more becomes known to them about gender and sexuality. Maybe Amanda and Julia could educate them on it, but I don't think it will make a difference to many of the others, especially the freshthings.

Quote:

Very few of Tuck's friends are likely to think of him as gay.

What about Da Rat Boyz? Mike definitely thinks of Tuck as gay. And speaking of which, how much does Dan know? He still hasn't seen Val in over 9 months, so the odds are he really doesn't think of Tuck as very fem. And George is just a jerk.

Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4592] Fri, 23 June 2006 04:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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I disagree with you when you say the girls or Mike think of Tuck as a gay male. That was my point, they don't really. They think of Tuck as Tuck. I don't think there is any incontrovertible evidence to the contrary.

Your simply repeating that they think of him as gay is not evidence of anything but the way you've read things. I didn't read things the same way you did, and I believe my view is just as valid.
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4595] Fri, 23 June 2006 14:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

I disagree with you when you say the girls or Mike think of Tuck as a gay male.

There's certainly a lot of implied evidence that Mike thinks tuck is gay. Even if he never uses that word to describe Tuck, he never corrects Tuck or anyone else the many times it comes up.

If he thought tuck's medical issues had an effect on his sexuality, don't you think he would have mentioned it one of the times it came up? With all the guilt tuck has been feeling about it, wouldn't you think he would want to give Tuck that out?

Oh, and does (21:37 30 Aug) show that the girls think of Tuck as gay? Though I'd agree that Sabrina and Kim might not because for personal reasons Kim needs him to be a girl and Sabrina needs him not to be gay.

[Updated on: Fri, 23 June 2006 14:08]

Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4596] Sat, 24 June 2006 00:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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The fact is, everyone knows Tuck's involvement with Debbie; Tuck is not gay, even if one regards him as male, he's bi. Nothing you've said is at all convincing to me that all the people you name as thinking of him as a gay male actually do so. They think of him as Tuck, an individual, and most of them resist categorizing someone they know as a complex person into a simple pigeonhole that really does not fit all the behavior they know Tuck to be capable of.

It really mystifies me why you are insisting on this.
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4599] Sun, 25 June 2006 01:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sluggo  is currently offline sluggo
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I have been looking at Tuck from a different angle. I would almost go as far as thinking that Tuck and Valerie live different lives in the same body.

My reading of the story leads me to think of Tuck as a straight guy. When Tuck is in "Tuck Mode" (hanging with Mike, Geeking Out, Going to School, etc) he isn't looking at guys as sexual objects. Early in the story he was looking the other way. He couldn't believe how great all of Debbie's friends looked. Even after Valerie and Travis got together, Tuck hasn't been that interested in guys. I mean they did go into the boy scout camp at night where there were scantily clad boys and he didn't care. No extra surveilance on the cabins to check anyone out (not that Amy wouldn't have jumped at the chance).

Valerie seems to be a very open, but still straight girl. When ever Debbie and Tuck were together, Tuck was thinking as a guy. Valerie might have gone out dancing in LA, but Tuck was the person who opened the door and got yelled at. When Valerie and Travis are together, she thinks like a girl. She is in love with Travis. She will talk about guys with the other girls, but all she really thinks of is Travis.

Yes, Tuck has picked up the phone and talked to Travis, but it was Valerie on the phone. (And before anyone says, Valerie has called home and still kinda been Valerie in her thinking while talking to Mom and Dad.) The switch isn't physical, its mental, it has nothing to do with clothing.

As far as Kelly's reaction to finding out that Valerie has (or had) a boyfriend, I don't think it will matter too much to her. I don't think she will push Tuck to come out. (Tuck will probably do that himself as a lightning rod reaction to draw attention away from the others.) It might confuse Kelly a bit, like every other time she learns anything new about Tuck, but she will accept the information and move on. Kinda like when she found out that Tuck was a guy.


-sluggo-
Lightning Rod [message #4600] Sun, 25 June 2006 05:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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sluggo wrote on Sat, 24 June 2006 22:48

I don't think [Kelly] will push Tuck to come out. (Tuck will probably do that himself as a lightning rod reaction to draw attention away from the others.)

Interesting point. But there's Mike for Tuck to consider also. He's already getting accusations along those lines at school (albeit only as a pejorative, the way Tuck kept getting called gay while dating Debbie), but if it becomes "official" that he's a gay guy's best friend, he'll be as much of a focus point as Tuck is/will be.

Eric
Re: Lightning Rod [message #4601] Sun, 25 June 2006 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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True, if Tuck outs himself, that may draw fire, but others might be caught in it too. An even worse possibility though, it would also alienate him from his friends. Tuck wants to be close to his friends so he can protect them, he's not going to like anything that could push them away.
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4602] Sun, 25 June 2006 14:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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sluggo wrote on Sat, 24 June 2006 22:48

I have been looking at Tuck from a different angle. I would almost go as far as thinking that Tuck and Valerie live different lives in the same body.

My reading of the story leads me to think of Tuck as a straight guy. When Tuck is in "Tuck Mode" (hanging with Mike, Geeking Out, Going to School, etc) he isn't looking at guys as sexual objects. Early in the story he was looking the other way. He couldn't believe how great all of Debbie's friends looked. Even after Valerie and Travis got together, Tuck hasn't been that interested in guys. I mean they did go into the boy scout camp at night where there were scantily clad boys and he didn't care. No extra surveilance on the cabins to check anyone out (not that Amy wouldn't have jumped at the chance).

Valerie seems to be a very open, but still straight girl. When ever Debbie and Tuck were together, Tuck was thinking as a guy. Valerie might have gone out dancing in LA, but Tuck was the person who opened the door and got yelled at. When Valerie and Travis are together, she thinks like a girl. She is in love with Travis. She will talk about guys with the other girls, but all she really thinks of is Travis.


Alas, there's a major hole in your argument.

During one of the sleepovers(?) the girls were asking what he thought of various people as potential dates. And he said (rather strongly) that when he's got an SO, he *doesn't* look at other people that way.

So the fact that Tuck isn't checking out other guys doesn't mean anything. He's got Travis. So he's not looking.

Re: Lightning Rod [message #4603] Sun, 25 June 2006 14:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Doragoon wrote on Sun, 25 June 2006 18:28

True, if Tuck outs himself, that may draw fire, but others might be caught in it too. An even worse possibility though, it would also alienate him from his friends. Tuck wants to be close to his friends so he can protect them, he's not going to like anything that could push them away.


Good God, I can't imagine a single one of Tuck's friends who wouldn't stand by him if he comes out. One thing Tuck has got going for him - and it's a *big* thing, is a group of very good friends.

(If anything Tuck's complaint so far is that some of them seem almost too eager for him to do so - as Valerie.)

But the fear that his coming out will make them targets, yes, that's very valid. But there's such a lot of solidarity there, especially when you add in the changes currently going on in McAllen's.


Rachel
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4604] Sun, 25 June 2006 17:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sluggo  is currently offline sluggo
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Brooke wrote on Sun, 25 June 2006 11:01


Alas, there's a major hole in your argument.

During one of the sleepovers(?) the girls were asking what he thought of various people as potential dates. And he said (rather strongly) that when he's got an SO, he *doesn't* look at other people that way.

So the fact that Tuck isn't checking out other guys doesn't mean anything. He's got Travis. So he's not looking.




And how often has that stopped anyone? Everyone says that they only look at the one their involved with. True, Tuck doesn't want anyone else at the moment, but that wouldn't stop him from looking. Its perfectly normal to look. It would almost be more strange for him not to look.

Does anyone think of Travis as gay? I don't think so. Valerie is his girlfriend. Tuck is not his boyfriend.


-sluggo-
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4605] Sun, 25 June 2006 23:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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sluggo wrote on Sun, 25 June 2006 14:37

Brooke wrote on Sun, 25 June 2006 11:01


He's got Travis. So he's not looking.


And how often has that stopped anyone? Everyone says that they only look at the one their involved with. True, Tuck doesn't want anyone else at the moment, but that wouldn't stop him from looking. Its perfectly normal to look. It would almost be more strange for him not to look.

That's the point. In a discussion with Jill (24 Aug, 12:31 through 13:49), she basically tells Val that everyone does it, and Val insists that she never has -- the only reason she looks at other people is to avoid tripping over them on the street.

Quote:

Does anyone think of Travis as gay? I don't think so. Valerie is his girlfriend. Tuck is not his boyfriend.

Well, they don't think so because of Valerie, anyway. But Erin and others here have suggested that his friends might have thought he was gay, since all of them were surprised to see Travis with a girlfriend.
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4606] Mon, 26 June 2006 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

Its perfectly normal to look. It would almost be more strange for him not to look.

Since when has tuck been normal? Most of what tuck does is VERY strange. For a long time i have held that readers attribute too much of their own motivations to tuck, even when confronted with evidence against them.

Quote:

Does anyone think of Travis as gay?

Amy thinks he's gay.

Quote:

I can't imagine a single one of Tuck's friends who wouldn't stand by him if he comes out.

That's not the point, Tuck CAN imagine it. Tuck thought MIKE would leave him if he found out. How much more likely is Dan or George to leave him? Even if they stay because of mike, it could be a slow wedge.
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4607] Mon, 26 June 2006 20:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Eric wrote on Sun, 25 June 2006 20:25

sluggo wrote on Sun, 25 June 2006 14:37

Brooke wrote on Sun, 25 June 2006 11:01


He's got Travis. So he's not looking.


And how often has that stopped anyone? Everyone says that they only look at the one their involved with. True, Tuck doesn't want anyone else at the moment, but that wouldn't stop him from looking. Its perfectly normal to look. It would almost be more strange for him not to look.

That's the point. In a discussion with Jill (24 Aug, 12:31 through 13:49), she basically tells Val that everyone does it, and Val insists that she never has -- the only reason she looks at other people is to avoid tripping over them on the street.


And I can understand that attitude. *I* don't "look" very much and I'm not even *in* a relationship.

When you get it rather forcibly driven home to you that any partner you get is going to have to be *compatible*, and that looks don't have a lot to do with that, you lose most of the incentive for "random looking".

I'd not be at all surprised to find that this is part of why Tuck doesn't look.



Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4609] Thu, 29 June 2006 00:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sluggo  is currently offline sluggo
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Tuck does look sometimes. I just started rereading from the beginning and found this little passage in chapter 2.

Quote:

11:12 1 Nov

"So- Val, pay attention!"
"Uh, sorry..." There were a lot of half-naked women wandering
around in here. I kept trying to not watch, but my eyes kept-
"Now, which one do you like better?"
"Huh?"
"Valerie! _Wake up_!"



I know a lot has passed since then, but it does go to show that Tuck does look sometimes (or at least did), Ellen just dosen't talk about it. I know it was a little weird when he didn't look around the morning after the barn dance, but that was "Sleepy Time Tuck". "Sleepy Time Tuck" was trained not to look on account that Debbie would have removed bits of his anatomy that he is quite fond of if he did. It wasn't that he wasn't interested.


-sluggo-
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4610] Thu, 29 June 2006 03:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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There are many more reasons to look up at someone than just sexual atraction.
Looking at Others [message #4611] Sat, 08 July 2006 05:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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sluggo wrote on Wed, 28 June 2006 21:55

Tuck does look sometimes. I just started rereading from the beginning and found this little passage in chapter 2.

Quote:

11:12 1 Nov

"So- Val, pay attention!"
"Uh, sorry..." There were a lot of half-naked women wandering
around in here. I kept trying to not watch, but my eyes kept-
"Now, which one do you like better?"
"Huh?"
"Valerie! _Wake up_!"



I know a lot has passed since then, but it does go to show that Tuck does look sometimes (or at least did), Ellen just doesn't talk about it.[...]

Apart from the physical and mental changes that Tuck has gone through since then, there's also the strong suspicion that Ellen understands Tuck's character a lot better now than she did in 1997. (The Tuck of early November also got concerned when Debbie was alone, briefly, with George.) Since Tuck told Jill relatively recently that he doesn't look, I think it's certain that Tuck believes that's true -- and I don't see anything to suggest that Tuck's misleading himself or us about this.

Eric
Re: Kelly, Tuck and Travis [message #4612] Sat, 08 July 2006 13:19 Go to previous message
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sluggo wrote on Thu, 29 June 2006 00:55

Tuck does look sometimes. I just started rereading from the beginning and found this little passage in chapter 2.

Quote:

11:12 1 Nov

"So- Val, pay attention!"
"Uh, sorry..." There were a lot of half-naked women wandering
around in here. I kept trying to not watch, but my eyes kept-
"Now, which one do you like better?"
"Huh?"
"Valerie! _Wake up_!"



I know a lot has passed since then, but it does go to show that Tuck does look sometimes (or at least did), Ellen just dosen't talk about it. I know it was a little weird when he didn't look around the morning after the barn dance, but that was "Sleepy Time Tuck". "Sleepy Time Tuck" was trained not to look on account that Debbie would have removed bits of his anatomy that he is quite fond of if he did. It wasn't that he wasn't interested.




Back in November Tuck thought he was a normal heterosexual male. What normal heterosexual teenage male wouldn't be distracted the first time he's in a room with half naked women coming and going. Before that, the only time he probably saw a half naked female outside of porn was a relative that he happened to catch a glimpse of as he walked passed an open bedroom or bathroom door. The simple fact is that it would be wierd if he DIDN'T react the way he did at the time.

As for the morning after the barn dance, I have a feeling that it wasn't so much Debbie's training/threats as is was the fact that he had been to several sleepovers at Sabrina's by that point. For Tuck, the novelty of walking around a house filled with scantily young women first thing in the morning had worn off.

Plus, there is a difference at simply looking at or appreciating someone's physical appearance as happened in November and imagining what a relationship with that person would be like based on social observations and/or snipets of overheard conversations like Jill was talking about that morning.
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