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Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4540] Sun, 11 June 2006 17:48 Go to next message
lurker
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Way to go Ellen!!! Tuck 117 up!

[Updated on: Sun, 11 June 2006 17:49]

Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4541] Sun, 11 June 2006 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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From "Free Four"

...Somehow he looked worse when he was walking around than he had for the last couple of days in the hammock. *Maybe it's just the way he's moving,* * Brian thought. A memory surfaced, and he thought, *He's even worse than he was last Halloween.*

Maybe it's something new to be added to Tuck lore, but Tuck appears to have had either a serious illness or had just recovered from another physical attack before Tucks' first chapter, when he appears as Val for the first time with Debbie. This then opens up the speculation of how much physical abuse Tuck was encountering when the Tuck story began. Of course, if it was serious, Sarah might have yanked Tuck from school at that time...

[Updated on: Sun, 11 June 2006 20:04]

Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4542] Sun, 11 June 2006 21:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Finally.

I need to re-read; not just this chapter, but all the non-Tuck chapters. Or, more likely, the entire story.

But this is, finally, back to being Tuck, even if it's not back to the normal format quite yet. And I am very, very glad to have it back.

Thank you, Ellen

(And, as I glance at my bookshelf with the copy of GURPS Prisoner and the 1st edition HC Moon is a Harsh Mistress I was lucky enough to find at a library sale for 25 cents, I am remined of just how close to home the cast really is to me.)

More coments after I reread some.

OtherEric
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4543] Sun, 11 June 2006 23:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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I just want to elaborate on my previous post, since I think I was perhaps a bit understated.

This chapter had, for lack of a better word, the Magic back. It's back to the story where I would eagerly check for more news every day or two, even when I knew there was no chance of anything new. It's the story where I was inspired to do the "today in history" entries for an entire year. This is the story I've missed more than even I realized.

I know Ellen needed to show what she did over the past 14 non-Tuck episodes. But some of the Magic was gone for me reading it in serial form as it dragged on, even if I had faith it would come together in the end.

I'm not sure I can tell you exactly what clicked in this chapter, unless it was Valerie making a return appearance. But I think it was more than that.

I never lost faith that this would come back; I thank you again, from the bottom of my heart, for your sharing this with us, Ellen. (I just wish I had a job right now so I could help you from my pocketbook as well.)

OtherEric
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4544] Sun, 11 June 2006 23:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Amy!  is currently offline Amy!
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lurker wrote on Sun, 11 June 2006 20:03

From "Free Four"

...Somehow he looked worse when he was walking around than he had for the last couple of days in the hammock. *Maybe it's just the way he's moving,* * Brian thought. A memory surfaced, and he thought, *He's even worse than he was last Halloween.*

Maybe it's something new to be added to Tuck lore, but Tuck appears to have had either a serious illness or had just recovered from another physical attack before Tucks' first chapter, when he appears as Val for the first time with Debbie. This then opens up the speculation of how much physical abuse Tuck was encountering when the Tuck story began. Of course, if it was serious, Sarah might have yanked Tuck from school at that time...


Umm, I think that this may be a misreading. See Tuck 2, "Tuckered Out", 15:41 1 Nov. And note that Tuck 1, "Tucked In", has first timestamp of 16:44 26 Oct. I think that this is a reference to Brian seeing Tuck stumbling tired and showing interesting marks on 1 November; it's likely that Brian knew *something* was going on (Tuck was out all night, for one thing, and he may have been displaying post-assault sorts of reactions as well, following the McPhear episode (and he was happily drugged up on Valium)).

Phear teh cute ones. Smile

Amy!
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4545] Mon, 12 June 2006 00:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sluggo  is currently offline sluggo
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With all the back story on how bad Tuck's recovery time can be, this still seems too soon to me. It seemed like he got all his homework done in two days while still being drugged up and not able to breath. And as soon as he decided to get up and get moving, he's back to well enough to fool Mrs. Parker into thinking that she is well again. I understand that Ellen (and most of the members of this board) wanted to get back to the original story style and that it wasn't possible with Tuck being stuck at home. But it still seems very rushed. (OK everyone can BOO me now.)

Ok now that I got that out of my system, GREAT CHAPTER. All of the little plots and storylines that we have complained about not hearing enough about seemed to be touched on. And some progressed quite a ways.

I know this sounds weird from me, but it's nice to see Valerie back. It is a great way for Tuck to escape and have some "normalcy" in his life. Just having that one place where he knows that he won't need the body armor (on the other hand having body armor around Ricky does sound like a good idea). It should help Tuck out emotionally even at the risk to Tuck physically.

My memory of November 1st and Brian was that he saw the bruising from the corset and then thought of Debbie and didn't even want to know what happened. Brian was still the innocent yet annoying little brother character to us all at that point. Brian has grown a lot over the year. Now he is the annoying little brother who has his uses at times.


-sluggo-
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4546] Mon, 12 June 2006 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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'Scuse me for being a bit defensive, but...

sluggo wrote on Mon, 12 June 2006 05:49

With all the back story on how bad Tuck's recovery time can be, this still seems too soon to me. It seemed like he got all his homework done in two days while still being drugged up and not able to breath. And as soon as he decided to get up and get moving, he's back to well enough to fool Mrs. Parker into thinking that she is well again.


From Episode #117

Beth (Parker) had been worried about Valerie, because of the mask and because she looked so thin and pale, but even though she was moving slowly - *No wonder, with surgery for a collapsed lung,* she'd thought - she was cheerful and somewhat talkative as (...)


Sluggo, I think you must've missed this part... There's a big difference between "totally recovered and back to normal" and "well ENOUGH". Val has the latter but, as Beth Parker observed, she's nowhere near the former yet.

Ellen
nosig
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4547] Mon, 12 June 2006 10:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Mon, 12 June 2006 14:09

'Scuse me for being a bit defensive, but...

sluggo wrote on Mon, 12 June 2006 05:49

With all the back story on how bad Tuck's recovery time can be, this still seems too soon to me. It seemed like he got all his homework done in two days while still being drugged up and not able to breath. And as soon as he decided to get up and get moving, he's back to well enough to fool Mrs. Parker into thinking that she is well again.


From Episode #117

Beth (Parker) had been worried about Valerie, because of the mask and because she looked so thin and pale, but even though she was moving slowly - *No wonder, with surgery for a collapsed lung,* she'd thought - she was cheerful and somewhat talkative as (...)


Sluggo, I think you must've missed this part... There's a big difference between "totally recovered and back to normal" and "well ENOUGH". Val has the latter but, as Beth Parker observed, she's nowhere near the former yet.

Ellen
nosig



I was thinking the same thing... Barely well enough, in fact arguably not really well enough at all, just deciding to do it anyway. Smile

I see it almost as self-medication for Tuck. Whatever the physical stresses, sitting for the Parkers is psychologically so rewarding and healing in a way that being home simply isn't right now.

Same thing happened after the split-up with Debbie, IIRC. In my recent (and incomplete) re-reading of Tuck, I've noted the times Tuck does something instinctively that's exactly what she needs to do.

So there's the "contractual obligation" pretext, but maybe it's telling that Tuck only uses that with the parentals this time, and not, for instance, with Mike.

In response to OtherEric...

OtherEric

I know Ellen needed to show what she did over the past 14 non-Tuck episodes. But some of the Magic was gone for me reading it in serial form as it dragged on, even if I had faith it would come together in the end.

I'm not sure I can tell you exactly what clicked in this chapter, unless it was Valerie making a return appearance. But I think it was more than that.


Hehe, are we really that easy to please? Rolling Eyes

It may be more that for the first time we're seeing Tuck being proactive again, rather than just a passive sick-child. (No wonder Sarah was angry?) God, Tuck needed to get out of that house. (I wonder if this is also lurking behind Tuck's insistence on going back to school early. Tuck's reasons are often not Tuck's stated reasons, even to himself.)

I wonder how long the body armour will last. I think it will prove too cumbersome, both physically and (more importantly?) socially. And I do kind of admire Sarah at least for one thing: While Bill's reaction is the defensive entrenchment typified by the body-armour (and guns, and surveillance tech...), Sarah, with Debbie, is trying something that might make such a measure unnecessary. You SHOULD NOT have to send your kids to school wearing armour.

Perhaps a difference in their willingness to invest in the society in which they live - is it something worth trying to make better for your children, or something you have to protect your children from?


Rachel
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4548] Mon, 12 June 2006 11:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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I'm wondering if the parentals, especially sarah, will *notice* that going back to babysitting, while tiring, *helps* Tuck.

And an odd note. When the "there's nothing to wear to bed" came up, I expected that tuck would wind up in some of Val's stuff (or possibly the nightgown Amy left behind for him?)

What I *didn't* expect was him trying to deny it to Sabrina.

I was also a bit surprised that he changed at Rachel's rather than at home. though that could be because most of Val's babysitting stuff is over there.

But after thinking for a bit, I guess he's *really* uncomfortable about being Val at home of around the parentals and Brian.

Understandable, given the way all three found out.

But I think that's one of the "issues to be resolved". Before making those decisions about his future that he still has to make, I think Tuck needs to have some "Val time" around the family *without* it being a major negative thing.

Just so he won't have the only memories of Val around mom/dad/Brian being so negative. Because that'd tend to skew his decision unless he does a lot more thinking than usual.
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4549] Mon, 12 June 2006 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Brooke wrote on Mon, 12 June 2006 16:40

I'm wondering if the parentals, especially sarah, will *notice* that going back to babysitting, while tiring, *helps* Tuck.

And an odd note. When the "there's nothing to wear to bed" came up, I expected that tuck would wind up in some of Val's stuff (or possibly the nightgown Amy left behind for him?)

What I *didn't* expect was him trying to deny it to Sabrina.


I'm so naive. I took the tank-top explanation at face value. Smile It's not like Tuck proved it (eg: by getting out of bed or moving bedclothes aside). I excuse myself with reference to your observation - why deny it to Sabrina?

(It might just happen to be the truth even so. I'm sure Tuck has tank-tops as well as at least one nightgown.)

I thought it was a lovely image though, Val through Sabrina's eyes just at that moment. Some of the imagery picked up from her being at the Parkers is sticking with me too. She's so frail right now, but she's trying, and asserting who she is. She's had enough of just lying around being the victim. It's lovely.

BTW, other things also noticed:

Bill questioned the wisdom of going to babysit, but made no attempt to stop her, and wouldn't back Sarah on it later.

Anger from Sarah and Mike about it, both of whom are her self-appointed protectors and Val did something out of their control and independence-asserting.

Debbie, on receiving the message that Val intended to go to the Parkers, didn't hesitate or question it for a moment. She immediately pulled Kim off onto something else that needed doing and took it for granted that if Val said she would babysit, it would happen. She's not unaware of Tuck's physical condition right now. Who's showing the most faith in Tuck right now, despite everything? (BTW, this isn't part of a 'Tuck and Debbie will get back together' theory. Faith in someone is a completely different matter.)

Quote:

I was also a bit surprised that he changed at Rachel's rather than at home. though that could be because most of Val's babysitting stuff is over there.

But after thinking for a bit, I guess he's *really* uncomfortable about being Val at home of around the parentals and Brian.

Understandable, given the way all three found out.


Absolutely. No way ready to do that at home yet.

Quote:

But I think that's one of the "issues to be resolved". Before making those decisions about his future that he still has to make,


There's no tearing hurry to make lifelong decisions. I think that's Tuck's feeling on the matter anyway. Doesn't want to shut things off yet, either way, which the parentals do, I feel.

Never forget, this is a 16-year-old kid. I wouldn't want to hurry em.

Quote:

I think Tuck needs to have some "Val time" around the family *without* it being a major negative thing.

Just so he won't have the only memories of Val around mom/dad/Brian being so negative. Because that'd tend to skew his decision unless he does a lot more thinking than usual.


And they'd know that and act accordingly? (ie: knowing how powerfully that kind of pressure works on Tuck, to push for their preferred outcome?

Like I said, Tuck needed to get out of that house, and to do something Val-affirming, and she did so, against quite a lot of physical pain and difficulty, enough that no-one would have thought badly of her staying in bed for another few days. That instinct at work again. I wonder how coincidental it was that it happened so soon after Mike went home too.


Rachel
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4550] Mon, 12 June 2006 15:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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The little bit of Sarah being asked about "her daughter" at the doctor's hasn't drawn any comment yet. Just a little wiggle on that line to keep us hooked. Smile
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4551] Mon, 12 June 2006 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Renee Mc  is currently offline Renee Mc
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Mon, 12 June 2006 13:58

The little bit of Sarah being asked about "her daughter" at the doctor's hasn't drawn any comment yet. Just a little wiggle on that line to keep us hooked. Smile


I wondered on reading this if it wasn't a reference to Susan's test data or any follow-ups rather than anything to do with Val.

On other things... WOOHOO! *fist pumping* It's all coming together. Yay!


" Ain't no justice here.
Not unless you make it.
Ain't no freedom here
Unless you take it all.
Ain't no safety anywhere
Unless you keep your rifle bare.
Time and change are everywhere
And you gotta rise or fall."

-Leslie Fish "No High Ground"

Happily waiting for 118

-Renee


fnord*no sig here*fnord
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4552] Mon, 12 June 2006 17:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

I wondered on reading this if it wasn't a reference to Susan's test data or any follow-ups rather than anything to do with Val.

That was how i read it too. Anyone calling with Tuck's medical records would have the name Eugene infront of them.
"Sarah's Daughter" [message #4554] Tue, 13 June 2006 01:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Mon, 12 June 2006 12:58

The little bit of Sarah being asked about "her daughter" at the doctor's hasn't drawn any comment yet. Just a little wiggle on that line to keep us hooked. Smile

Susan internally noted, in connection with Tuck's medical tests after the attack, that she had test records of her own to pick up; I'd be extremely surprised if this isn't the follow-up to that.

Eric
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4555] Tue, 13 June 2006 01:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Mon, 12 June 2006 12:58

The little bit of Sarah being asked about "her daughter" at the doctor's hasn't drawn any comment yet. Just a little wiggle on that line to keep us hooked. Smile


That's probably the test results for Sarah and *Susan* that Amy's mom was calling about the week before (many chapters back)
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4556] Tue, 13 June 2006 03:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Brooke wrote on Tue, 13 June 2006 06:58

Erin Halfelven wrote on Mon, 12 June 2006 12:58

The little bit of Sarah being asked about "her daughter" at the doctor's hasn't drawn any comment yet. Just a little wiggle on that line to keep us hooked. Smile


That's probably the test results for Sarah and *Susan* that Amy's mom was calling about the week before (many chapters back)


... and I'd expect Sarah to wig out a bit if doctors started referring to Tuck as her daughter. And she didn't.


Rachel
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4557] Tue, 13 June 2006 07:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Some comments and questions:

- Some really great scenes here. Jody smilingly returning the Prisoner salute is probably the best vignette I've seen here that didn't involve a major character -- it works beautifully on literal and symbolic levels. Cute, having the gaming group become the first homophobia "offenders". Also cute, having Jody convinced by Debbie about the virtues of altruism.

- So the fifth perp in Tuck's assault WAS a girl, and wasn't in the men's restroom with the other four. But if she was a cheerleader, that'd run counter to Mike and Debbie's original conclusion that none of them were capable of a premeditated attack plan. (However, as I noted previously, there's no actual secret as to the identity of that fifth person, except to us readers. And we now learn that the same is true of the person who stole the laptop: Bill, his attorney, the authorities and probably Tuck know all about what happened; it's just us readers that haven't been told. Will Tuck tell us in the next chapter? Or is the actual identity of the perp someone we've never heard of and therefore irrelevant to us, as (apparently) was the case with the roach in the computer system at school?)

- Germ warfare? Seems to be looking more likely that the garbage and drink can that Debbie planted may have belonged to someone who was ill (Mike?) and been used to spread something contagious among the football team in hopes of decimating their numbers before the inevitable fight broke out.

- Ellen seems to be backing off a little about putting Tuck's school location on the Indiana side of the Ohio border; last chapter, Dobson told Arlene Raleigh that the appellate court ruling in the Wisconsin case was binding (which would be true in Indiana but not Ohio), but now he tells Kelly's teachers only that the school board will probably think so.

- Is Debbie literally going to try to set up a Heinlein cell system with all the names and phone numbers she's collecting of potential strikers? Seems to me to be too hierarchical a concept for the current purpose.

- I'm voting tank-top. Even if Tuck's not expecting a nightmare since he's not headed for school, there are still too many ways he could be seen by someone else in the family before he gets dressed the next morning. (Didn't happen, but...)

- I thought on first reading that Ricky had actually spotted Travis or his truck through the front window. (Wouldn't have been that surprising if Travis had been routinely driving past the place daily to see if Val's car was there.) But I assume he was just reacting to Mike having rung the doorbell.

- Anyone figure this out?
Quote:

"Yeah," Dan said, "she took something else... uh, insecure line." "We need to go over there again," George sighed. "And Mike's gone home." "His house?" "Yeah, probably." "Probably?"
Dan's first statement presumably refers to Sarah Tucker and the inserts. But where are Dan and George going? Another nighttime excursion to McAllen on Sunday night? (Seems unlikely, since we don't hear of Brian or Jill or Kelly getting involved.) To Tuck's house? They never get there. To Mike's?

Eric
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4558] Tue, 13 June 2006 12:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quoth  is currently offline Quoth
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Excellent Chapter!

- The idea of Tuck lying to Sabrina didn't occur to me. I guess it is possible, but why on earth would he?

- Eric: Mike strategically coughed on a specific set of locker locks when he realised he was coming down with something in 110. Presumably they were targetting perps.

- Does anyone have a clue what this is about:
Quote:


"She WHAT?!"
"I swear, I saw her..."


cause I'm stumped.

I can't wait to get inside Tuck's head again Very Happy
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4559] Tue, 13 June 2006 19:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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From 117

..."Well, it had to come from SOMEWHERE," Dobson said disbelievingly."The police arrested two separate groups of students for attempting to vandalize the school with posters over the weekend, but... are you claiming that someone snuck in and did this?"

Looks like at least two other groups are into this night work and it's fortunate none of the rat boyz or pack members got caught. Of course, the vandalism could just be the exterior only kind, not the Breaking & Entering kind...
Surprise that no discussion took place among them as to who was caught. Of course Dobson's forwarnings helped our protagnists to avoid such situations... Looks like imminent anarchy at McAllen High. I'm rather curious as to who did get caught. Jocks? Cheerleaders? Band members? It could shade schoolwide perception on who's responsible for the proganda and how they feel about being manipulated.
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4560] Tue, 13 June 2006 22:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Eric wrote on Tue, 13 June 2006 04:38

Some comments and questions:
- Germ warfare? Seems to be looking more likely that the garbage and drink can that Debbie planted may have belonged to someone who was ill (Mike?) and been used to spread something contagious among the football team in hopes of decimating their numbers before the inevitable fight broke out.


No, Mike was coughing on the dials of the locks or the handles of various people's lockers. That's a *very* effective transmission vector if the organism lasts long enough.

Because you'll touch the "seeded" area with your dominant hand. And then you'll touch things like your face, pencils, food...

Quote:

- Is Debbie literally going to try to set up a Heinlein cell system with all the names and phone numbers she's collecting of potential strikers? Seems to me to be too hierarchical a concept for the current purpose.


The tetrahedral "mesh" organization doesn't *have* to be hierarchical. It's just easier to set up that way, so as to avoid gaps and overlaps.

Quote:

- I'm voting tank-top. Even if Tuck's not expecting a nightmare since he's not headed for school, there are still too many ways he could be seen by someone else in the family before he gets dressed the next morning. (Didn't happen, but...)


I'm suspecting that it was a nightgown, and probably Amy's as he was *very* clear about not having anything to wear to bed. And because he pulled up the covers.

I may be wrong. But it "feels right" (not that that means anything with Ellen!)
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4561] Tue, 13 June 2006 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Quoth wrote on Tue, 13 June 2006 09:44

Excellent Chapter!

- The idea of Tuck lying to Sabrina didn't occur to me. I guess it is possible, but why on earth would he?


Same reason he pulled the covers up so she couldn't get a closer look. I mean, she's seen him *naked*...

Regardless of Val or Tuck mode, why would he/she suddenly need to cover *shoulders*?

Quoth

- Does anyone have a clue what this is about:
Quote:


"She WHAT?!"
"I swear, I saw her..."


cause I'm stumped.


No idea. And I'm wondering too.

Of course, it could be something like the mystery person looking at tuck's chart in the hospital and going "that's not right". We *still* don't know what that was all about.


I can't wait to get inside Tuck's head again Very Happy[/quote]
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4562] Tue, 13 June 2006 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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There's such detail about the construction of the armor that Bill is making and adjusting for Tuck. I became amused at the description of Bill taking the sledge hammer to form the steel plates.
As I read that, I kept thinking of the scene in Kurosawa's film Yojimbo, or Clint Eastwood's role in A Fistfull of Dollars, or the parody (maybe homage?) of the same by Michael J. Fox in Back to the Future 3, where the attackers are surprised by the appearance of the makeshift armor. Visualization of a hard bare-handed punch landing on Tuck in a cafeteria or shopping mall altercation resulting in a busted hand by the attacker - maybe Tom Lenich. Surprised
Can't wait to see how Ellen sets this one up. I know, such a scene would now be cliche - but sometimes cliches can still be fun. Of course, since I mentioned it here, it or a variation of such probably wouldn't happen... Crying or Very Sad
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4563] Wed, 14 June 2006 01:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Brooke wrote on Tue, 13 June 2006 19:26

...it could be something like the mystery person looking at tuck's chart in the hospital and going "that's not right". We *still* don't know what that was all about.

Since I've been assuming we all were right that it was Beth Parker's sister, I was really interested to see what Beth might know when Val returned. The paragraph from Beth's POV certainly suggested that she took Val's explanation (surgery for a collapsed lung) at face value. You'd think that if Cindy Upshaw knew something as significant as she'd have found in Tuck's medical records, she'd have told Beth something right away, even if it was just the extent of his injuries, to give her a better idea of when Val was coming back.

Eric
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4564] Wed, 14 June 2006 03:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Josea  is currently offline Josea
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Eric wrote on Tue, 13 June 2006 22:51

Brooke wrote on Tue, 13 June 2006 19:26

...it could be something like the mystery person looking at tuck's chart in the hospital and going "that's not right". We *still* don't know what that was all about.

Since I've been assuming we all were right that it was Beth Parker's sister, I was really interested to see what Beth might know when Val returned. The paragraph from Beth's POV certainly suggested that she took Val's explanation (surgery for a collapsed lung) at face value. You'd think that if Cindy Upshaw knew something as significant as she'd have found in Tuck's medical records, she'd have told Beth something right away, even if it was just the extent of his injuries, to give her a better idea of when Val was coming back.

Eric


I don't think that Cindy Upshaw knows who Eugene Tucker is, she only knows that Valerie Tucker babysits for her sister. That scene in the hospital is still a mystery.

-Josea
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4565] Wed, 14 June 2006 06:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quoth  is currently offline Quoth
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Brooke wrote on Tue, 13 June 2006 19:26


Same reason he pulled the covers up so she couldn't get a closer look. I mean, she's seen him *naked*...

Regardless of Val or Tuck mode, why would he/she suddenly need to cover *shoulders*?



Hmm. I read it as the covers were already up when she knocked, and that Tuck was just in that position. Rereading, it's possibile that Tuck dived under the covers when Sabrina knocked, not wanting to be caught sorting laundry in a nightdress.

But mostly it was just Tuck's attitude - s/he doesn't hide embarssment that well, so the fact that s/he is calm and collected while Sabrina seems disoriented suggested to me that Sabrina was just confused.

On the other hand, you're right, Tuck was very clear about there not being anything to wear.

Brooke wrote on Tue, 13 June 2006 19:26


Of course, it could be something like the mystery person looking at tuck's chart in the hospital and going "that's not right". We *still* don't know what that was all about.



I got pretty convinced by the Cindy argument to the first mystery comment, and this one could be explained by it as well - if Cindy and Beth finally had a chance to talk about Val. My other vague ideas were Debbie being seen vandalising the band room or someone telling Travis they had seen Val up and about today.
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4566] Wed, 14 June 2006 14:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sluggo  is currently offline sluggo
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I vote nightgown. A tank top probably wouldn't have sparked that thought in Sabrina's head. I think he was hiding because at the moment he was Tuck in a nightgown, vs Val going to bed. Val and Tuck still aren't one identity. Tuck gets hit, Val goes dancing.

And Ellen, I'm sorry if I made it sound offensive, or at least made you go on the defense. I just was saying I thought that it was a little too quick for Tuck to be up and leaving the house. Most of your characters agreed with me. Thats also why I went on to say that I loved how Tuck handled the rest of the day. At least thats what I meant to say. Maybe I shouldn't try and write these posts after working in the yard all day.

-sluggo-


-sluggo-
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4567] Thu, 15 June 2006 07:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Josea wrote on Wed, 14 June 2006 00:20 :

I don't think that Cindy Upshaw knows who Eugene Tucker is, she only knows that Valerie Tucker babysits for her sister. That scene in the hospital is still a mystery.

The assumption behind the theory is that Cindy recognized Valerie (she DOES know what Valerie looks like, whether she remembers her last name or not) in the hospital emergency unit while working there as a night nurse. Upon seeing a male name on the accompanying chart, she read enough of it to explain the anomaly.

What's attractive about the theory is that it suggests that Beth Parker will find out from Cindy that Val is intersexed, which would very probably lead to greater equanimity on the Parkers' part than a discovery from another source that Val is male -- or worse, a personal discovery, at the Parkers' house some afternoon, that Val has male external genitals.

Eric
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4568] Thu, 15 June 2006 11:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sluggo  is currently offline sluggo
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Eric wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 04:52


The assumption behind the theory is that Cindy recognized Valerie (she DOES know what Valerie looks like, whether she remembers her last name or not) in the hospital emergency unit while working there as a night nurse.


Unless Cindy switched shifts then there is a very good chance that Cindy never saw Tuck (or did I forget something again). Tuck was taken to the hospital during school hours I believe he arrived there in the neighborhood of 2pm. Tuck was taken to surgury well before Cindy would have come on shift. Most ER nurses I know don't have time to walk up to the Intensive Care ward to check out the patients the other shift had.


-sluggo-
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4569] Thu, 15 June 2006 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Anyone else notice that this chapter was frigg'n HUGE? It's almost 50% longer than chapter 20, the longest chapter up until this one. It's almost twice as long as the average episode! We just got a two for one here, this chapter should have been both chapters 117 and 118. Any thoughts as to why Ellen decided to put them into one chapter and release them at the same time?
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4570] Thu, 15 June 2006 12:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Doragoon wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 17:36

Anyone else notice that this chapter was frigg'n HUGE?

Oooh, I did I did! *waves hand excitedly*
Doragoon wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 17:36

We just got a two for one here

Not that I get any thanks for doing this, of course.
Doragoon wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 17:36

Any thoughts as to why Ellen decided to put them into one chapter and release them at the same time?

"Whaaaa! I hate this multi-POV! When are you going to get back to writing real Tuck?! Whaaaaa!"


Ellen
nosig

Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4571] Thu, 15 June 2006 15:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Renee Mc  is currently offline Renee Mc
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 10:53

Doragoon wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 17:36

Anyone else notice that this chapter was frigg'n HUGE?

Oooh, I did I did! *waves hand excitedly*
Doragoon wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 17:36

We just got a two for one here

Not that I get any thanks for doing this, of course.

Ellen
nosig




*realiizes Ellen hasn't been worshiped properly recently*

*grovels intensely*

Thank you, Oh Great Mistress of the Tuck! Thank you!

-Renee


fnord*no sig here*fnord
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4572] Thu, 15 June 2006 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Josea  is currently offline Josea
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Eric wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 04:52

Josea wrote on Wed, 14 June 2006 00:20 :

I don't think that Cindy Upshaw knows who Eugene Tucker is, she only knows that Valerie Tucker babysits for her sister. That scene in the hospital is still a mystery.

The assumption behind the theory is that Cindy recognized Valerie (she DOES know what Valerie looks like, whether she remembers her last name or not) in the hospital emergency unit while working there as a night nurse. Upon seeing a male name on the accompanying chart, she read enough of it to explain the anomaly.

What's attractive about the theory is that it suggests that Beth Parker will find out from Cindy that Val is intersexed, which would very probably lead to greater equanimity on the Parkers' part than a discovery from another source that Val is male -- or worse, a personal discovery, at the Parkers' house some afternoon, that Val has male external genitals.

Eric
Assuming Cindy was assigned to Tuck, did she recognized him when he with all the bruses? And if so why didn't she say something to somebody by now? If she was assigned to take care of Tuck then she would have be in contact with Bill, Sarah, Brian and Mike. Whouldn't she have said some thing to them like "Oh my God! She babysits for my sister's children. What happend?" Or maybe that would not be proffessional.

While it is quite possible that is was Cindy who noticed an anomaly in the chart, I'm not sure that is the case.

-Josea

Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4573] Fri, 16 June 2006 06:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Hey, I've been re-reading the chapters since it went 3rd person, updating my character lists, and I just hit an odd coincidence that I had to mention before i forgot about it.

You think Monica Riggins, the transfer student who got placed in a lower math than she wanted, is related to Mr. Riggins, the DA on Tuck's case?

I have a lot more little suspicions like Andy Costello being the same Andy that's friends with Travis, but the Riggins one struck me as the most likely to be true.

And on a side note... 256 posts! Woo Hoo!
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4584] Thu, 22 June 2006 04:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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sluggo wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 08:55

Unless Cindy switched shifts then there is a very good chance that Cindy never saw Tuck (or did I forget something again). Tuck was taken to the hospital during school hours I believe he arrived there in the neighborhood of 2pm. Tuck was taken to surgury well before Cindy would have come on shift. Most ER nurses I know don't have time to walk up to the Intensive Care ward to check out the patients the other shift had.

josea wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 15:56

If she was assigned to take care of Tuck then she would have be in contact with Bill, Sarah, Brian and Mike.

Sorry for being imprecise. My assumption was that Cindy worked the night shift in the ICU, or happened to be assigned there that particular night. (All we've been told, as far as I know, is that she works nights at a hospital and has a nursing degree.)

In all, Tuck spent Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights in that unit, with Sarah Tucker present. So Cindy wouldn't have met any of the rest of the family, assuming she began her shift after 10pm and ended it before midmorning. (It does seem a little odd, though, if she's confused by the situation, that she doesn't introduce herself to Sarah in hopes of clarifying matters. How much Sarah would be willing to explain is another question.)

(We get one more story fragment from an unidentified hospital observer's POV, Sunday morning when Tuck is awakened. It seems too late in the morning to be Cindy, but I suppose it's possible.)

Eric

[Updated on: Thu, 22 June 2006 04:30]

Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4585] Thu, 22 June 2006 05:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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It's not all that uncommon for nursing staff to work *twelve hour* shifts. They only do it three or four days a week, but...

Even if they only work eight hours officially, overtime is common.
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4587] Thu, 22 June 2006 18:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Is the only information we've gotten about Cindy working at the hospital at 10:19 26 May? Does it ever say what hospital she works at, what she does there, or what department she works in? I'd kinda assumed she worked in obstetrics, but I don't know where I got that idea.

But I think the biggest reason Cindy Upshaw couldn't have seen tuck in the hospital was that if she knew, then she probably would have been so shocked and upset that she has to talk to Mrs. Parker about it. She would have told Ricky that Val wasn't going to be able to baby-sit him anymore, and he would have mentioned that. Any other situation means that someone thought a cross-dressing teen is a good person to have babysitting. That's just too happy fluffy for Ellen to write. If this was the normal potted plant story like Gaby, I'd say that was possible. But Ellen is too mean and honest with her story.

Though, I was wrong about Ellen not making Kelly actually being a girl. I was counting on a double fake out that never came. But if I'm wrong about this, why would Cindy wait a week to tell Beth?
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4589] Thu, 22 June 2006 21:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Doragoon wrote on Thu, 22 June 2006 23:42

That's just too happy fluffy for Ellen to write. If this was the normal potted plant story like Gaby, I'd say that was possible. But Ellen is too mean and honest with her story.


Just a thought - is 'honesty' always defined by the cruellest outcomes? Is anything less than unmitigated disaster, rejection, bigotry and abuse of the protagonist always going to be seen as a 'cop-out'? Isn't that just another way to try to 'herd' the writer to an outcome that fits and satisfies a particular world-view?

In the real and honest world good things also happen, acceptance is also found, and people do get it. Not all, but some, and enough to make life worth living, and even good. The authentic voice is not necessarily the one that tells the tale of most woe.

I'm holding out for Beth Parker being totally cool about the whole thing if she ever finds out. Now that would be a shock to the preconceptions held by Valerie and her family. In fact I occasionally amuse myself with the idea that Beth Parker figured it out (or enough of it anyway) months ago and would be so relieved at Valerie finally coming out so she could actually say it's not a problem. This sort of thing does happen in the real world too. It's a big world.


Rachel
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4590] Fri, 23 June 2006 03:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Doragoon wrote on Thu, 22 June 2006 15:42

Is the only information we've gotten about Cindy working at the hospital at 10:19 26 May?

Only other data I have (15:40 15 August) is when Beth Parker is talking to Valerie staying for one's degree and getting married and dropping out to raise a family. Beth makes it clear that Cindy got a nursing degree and a start on her career at the analogous time in her life, and that she's about six years older than Beth, who's "28--almost 29." Nothing specific, though.
Quote:

I'd kinda assumed she worked in obstetrics, but I don't know where I got that idea.

Possibly from Beth saying (07:52 28 July) that the reason Val might be able to babysit in the fall was because Cindy, Beth's first choice, didn't want to deal with a baby again (Stella) at home "after a few years of doing it." But it seems clear from the whole passage that Cindy HASN'T been involved with very young children since her own sons grew past that stage in life.
Quote:

But I think the biggest reason Cindy Upshaw couldn't have seen Tuck in the hospital was that if she knew, then she probably would have been so shocked and upset that she has to talk to Mrs. Parker about it. She would have told Ricky that Val wasn't going to be able to baby-sit him anymore, and he would have mentioned that. Any other situation means that someone thought a cross-dressing teen is a good person to have babysitting.

Cindy (if she's the one) knows that medical tests show Tucker as intersexed; for all she knows, Valerie may have been living and working as a female fulltime at least since the first set of tests came back anomalous last spring. (She knows Val was sitting for Ricky and Stella during the spring break.) That'd be a substantially different set of circumstances than someone cross-dressing in order to babysit. The trouble with that line of thinking is that with Sarah Tucker present in the hospital at the time of discovery, Cindy almost has to introduce herself and get some clarification. Could that have happened without our knowing it? I don't think so, now that we've seen Sarah's POV on Tuck sitting again, and exposure wasn't even on her mind.

Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4591] Fri, 23 June 2006 04:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Doragoon wrote on Fri, 16 June 2006 03:16

You think Monica Riggins, the transfer student who got placed in a lower math than she wanted, is related to Mr. Riggins, the DA on Tuck's case?

Check it again -- Riggins is the public defender representing one of Tuck's attackers, not the DA's office. That'd in effect put them on opposite sides here, like Yancey of TraumaFlight and James Yancey, arrested for the attack on Tuck. Relationship's not impossible, but unlikely.

Also, interesting that Debbie spends a lucrative afternoon trying to brainwash Monica Kutch for the upcoming week's events, but it's Monica Riggins, source of misinformation, who comes up with the magic word.

Quote:

I have a lot more little suspicions like Andy Costello being the same Andy that's friends with Travis...

Possible, I guess, since he lives "miles away" from his friend Steve, one of the newly-out gay guys at McAllen. And it could be Travis's Andy (or, really, anyone else) who happens to spot Valerie and Mike leaving the Parkers' Monday evening and tells Travis "I swear, I saw her" in the latest unattributed scene. But not likely.

Quote:

And on a side note...

Everett, Washington? Quite a move...
Re: Tuck#117- Free Four [message #4594] Fri, 23 June 2006 13:16 Go to previous message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
Messages: 334
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Quote:

Check it again -- Riggins is the public defender representing one of Tuck's attackers, not the DA's office.

Ya, I have him listed at a public defended on my character descriptions. I just typed it wrong.

Quote:

...unlikely

Yes things are unlikely, but are they any less likely than Cindy having seen tuck in the hospital? Speaking of which, they wouldn't have included the interested info on his chart. That information is kept by those doctors. Not every bit of a patient's medical history is kept on their chart.

Quote:

Everett, Washington? Quite a move...

Ya, that was quite a drive.
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