Home » Tuck Talk » Chapter by Chapter » tuck #118 is up
tuck #118 is up [message #4613] Sun, 09 July 2006 17:20 Go to next message
BubbleEntity  is currently offline BubbleEntity
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yay , * falls about reading *
Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4614] Sun, 09 July 2006 18:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BubbleEntity  is currently offline BubbleEntity
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the only comment i can make at this point is oh shit.

ok Rickys parents now know about Tuck, Travis has been cheating on Val (strongly implied anyway).
this will not do good things for her mental state, ...

Ellen, thanks for going back to first person, but wow, freight-train!
Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4615] Sun, 09 July 2006 19:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Well, we don't *know* what things look like from *Travis's* point of view.

I'll have to go back and check, but as I recall, all we know about Travis was that he'd asked some questions and *supposedly* Lisa had told him Val was sick.

We only have *third* hand evidence for that. Debbie said that Lisa said or some such.

Given the things we've seen about Lisa's attitude towards Tuck/Val I'll file that report under "very unreliable source: may or may not be true".

I'd also give a *lot* to know what sort of look was on Anne's face.

With regards to the Parkers, I wonder if Beth said anything to Travis's mother? I don't think she will now, not after Debbie & Mike got thru with her.

I'm *hoping* for a good outcome there, though it may take a while.

I do *not* want to think about what could happen if she lets the wrong thing slip around Ricky and he then reacts by mentioning getting dressed up as a girl....

I also swear that Ellen picked the point of maximal frustration to switch back to Tuck POV. I wanna know what happened at the school board and what else Debbie, Sarah tucker and other people have been up to.

Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4616] Sun, 09 July 2006 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yellow  is currently offline yellow
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I thought it was a very good chapter and I feel a little spoilt with all the content ^_- I was actually frightened it would cut off just after Debbie's intervention with the Parkers (I should have glanced at the scroll bar, I know, but I was a little gripped^^).

It's easy to empathise with the way Tuck's feeling, and the way the whole debate at the Parker's seems to pass by around him. The jump in writing style was slightly jarring: I kept on hearing this "Noir" type voice in my head when I read it at first, but a quick jump to some old chapters, and a hop back, cleared up things. It's a pleasure to hear "Tuck's" voice again ^_^

Mike's being a hero, Tuck's thinking at least (even if he is drugged to his eyeballs) and Travis has probably retreated to his social cocoon, who are now closing ranks around him: I sympathise with what he's been through, but really he's an ass if he takes the easy way out and runs away from a confrontation (and I think if he bothered to ask he'd appreciate Val's situation and thst might even cover for her "forgetfulness" beforehand).

I'm in a strage place with Travis because, while he's a nice guy from across the fence, he's going out with our girl and makes her behave like a complete idiot at times. I know it's young love...but seriously Tuck, you need to sort out where all this is going, and I need spider diagrams of what's going on with The Pack ^_-

[Updated on: Sun, 09 July 2006 23:30]

Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4617] Sun, 09 July 2006 23:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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BubbleEntity wrote on Sun, 09 July 2006 15:23

Travis has been cheating on Val (strongly implied anyway).

I think that's more classic Ellen misdirection than anything else. I could be completely wrong, of course. What Tuck thinks is going on often is not what is really going on, of course. We've been "spoiled" by far more reliable narrators in recent chapters.

I really need to re-read, not just this chapter but the whole story.

It was great to be back to Tuck's perspective, I love the chapter title. Very Happy

But Brooke is quite right on Ellen's timing to go back to Tuck- POV. Which should not in any way sound like I'm unhappy with the swap back, however. This is Ellen we're talking about; did we ever expect anything else?

And, as always, thank you Ellen. I still wish I could do more than just _say_ that.
Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4618] Mon, 10 July 2006 23:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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OtherEric wrote on Sun, 09 July 2006 20:56

BubbleEntity wrote on Sun, 09 July 2006 15:23

Travis has been cheating on Val (strongly implied anyway).

I think that's more classic Ellen misdirection than anything else. I could be completely wrong, of course. What Tuck thinks is going on often is not what is really going on, of course.

The girl that Val encountered at Travis' place was hostess to some of the parties that Travis and Val attended. One possibility of the biggest misdirection by Ellen is that Travis is actually known to be gay by his close friends, and they all support him. Going back to Jul 25, when Travis took Val to that party, Val sensed something was very odd about everyone's behaviour to Val.
from 23:22 25 Jul


"So why?" I persisted.
He shrugged again. "Just, I mean... It's a long story and I don't want to go into it here."
.....
I hoped, though, that he didn't think I'd forget and not ask later. Especially since, after we linked arms and walked back to the house, I caught some more stares and two girls whispering and looking at me.

Later, Travis explains he's extrememly shy and everyone was just surprised. It's possible that Travis is withholding some info about his friends knowledge about him from Val. This leads to a conjecture that some of Travis' friends suspect that Val is either a gay cross-dresser, or a just a girl who dates gay males. All of Travis' friends go along with it since it gives him a respectable social life. For all we know, Anne could be Travis' version of Mike and is with Travis to console him. However, why Val was in her car for 44 minutes and Travis never came out to speak to her is a mystery, unless Travis thinks the relationship is over, or Anne doesn't tell Travis who was at the door...
-----------------------------
It is apparent that the Parkers are getting used to the idea of Valerie's nature. Clearly, Mr. Parker doesn't see Val as much a threat to the children as Mrs. Parker. What I thought interesting was Ellen chose to have Mike call Valerie Tuck while in the Parker household. So, there's an implication the Parker's know Valeries' real name. Obviously, Mrs. Parker wants to know more about Val by speaking with Sarah.
Speculation is this: Now that adults around Valerie knows what's going on, would Sarah object to Val babysitting anymore? Secondly, is Valerie's biggest fear the revelation to Sarah by Mrs. Parker about Travis in a conversation?
Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4619] Tue, 11 July 2006 04:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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I think the next episode is going to start at around 7PM and it's going to give us a completely different outlook on what just happened.

Or if Ellen is really evil she'll start the next morning giving us no clue what happened and both tuck and us running along with our misconceived ideas. Probably the latter. Either way, there is a lot more going on in that last hour than we saw.

Did anyone else feel like this episode was more fragmented than usual? I felt like there were a lot more things that Tuck (or Ellen) wanted to hide from us. I don't' remember the cuts to a new timestamp being as abrupt in previous episodes. I was thinking this might also be because of all the drugs Tuck is on, but a lot of them are just too convenient. Short little two or three minute gaps in the story that could have answered a lot of the readers questions were obtrusively skipped over.
Anne and Travis [message #4620] Tue, 11 July 2006 05:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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I don't think Anne is misdirection, as well as that might fit Ellen's style. Lurker's point about the 44 minutes that the car was outside seems pretty telling: if Anne had an innocent reason for being there, SHE'D have come down to try and explain it.

FWIW, we (and Tuck) have met Anne four previous times: 4 Jan, 25 Jul, 28 Aug and 4 Sep. Three were parties to which she'd invited Travis, who brought Val along. The final meeting came when Val and Travis ran into Travis's friends at a dance venue that "a friend" -- almost certainly Anne -- had recommended to Travis.

If Val interpreted her correctly, Anne nonverbally inquired on two of the first three occasions as to whether Val and Travis were sexually active together. (In January, Val answered, accurately, that they weren't; during the summer, equally accurately, that they were.) In the meeting after Labor Day, Anne got Val to confirm the report that Val had spent the holiday in Travis's bedroom.

So (assuming Anne thinks of Val as female), it's a good bet, I think, that Anne, having admired Travis for a long time when he wasn't looking for a girlfriend, stepped in as soon as she could when Val made the position available.

(Ellen neatly reverses Anne's old nonverbal question this time. Val tells us, "I didnít ask a question, but her face answered me anyway. 'Sorry to bother you,' I choked out...")

The Congreve quote at the end really bothers me, though. The only character that it seems that it could apply to is Val, and it seems to me way out of character for Val to start hating Travis in a situation where she has every reason to think she's at fault. That's especially true with Mike on the scene to tell Tuck, if he starts blaming Travis (or Anne) for the whole thing, to get his facts straight first.

(Miz Parker, on the other hand, seems to have come a long way back toward acceptance for someone who started out describing Tuck as "THAT" and got headed off in part by the threat of a lawsuit against her sister.)

Eric
Re: Anne and Travis [message #4621] Tue, 11 July 2006 08:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

if Anne had an innocent reason for being there, SHE'D have come down to try and explain it.
Who's to say they didn't? 40 minutes is a long time for mike to let Tuck sit in the car and cry. There's no reason to believe that someone didn't come out and talk to Tuck, or invite him in and talk for 30 minutes or so.

Quote:

Miz Parker, on the other hand, seems to have come a long way back toward acceptance
Two sides are wrestling in her mind. It's one thing to declare yourself open-minded, it's another to act it when the time comes. She wants to talk to tuck's parents, which could mean she's searching for understanding, but more likely, she's searching for an out. Wanting a reason to fire Tuck that will let her still think of herself as tolerant. If she can't find a reason, she'll become slowly more hostile to Tuck until it becomes inevitable that a something happens to give her a reason to fire tuck.
Re: Anne and Travis [message #4622] Tue, 11 July 2006 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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Eric wrote on Tue, 11 July 2006 02:02

FWIW, we (and Tuck) have met Anne four previous times: 4 Jan, 25 Jul, 28 Aug and 4 Sep. Three were parties to which she'd invited Travis, who brought Val along. The final meeting came when Val and Travis ran into Travis's friends at a dance venue that "a friend" -- almost certainly Anne -- had recommended to Travis.

If Val interpreted her correctly, Anne nonverbally inquired on two of the first three occasions as to whether Val and Travis were sexually active together. (In January, Val answered, accurately, that they weren't; during the summer, equally accurately, that they were.) In the meeting after Labor Day, Anne got Val to confirm the report that Val had spent the holiday in Travis's bedroom.


Whoa!

I think you read *way* too much into that unspoken question. I read that (and still do) as "Are you & Travis an item?" (ie "are you his girlfriend?" as opposed to "just a date")

#118 [message #4623] Wed, 12 July 2006 01:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sluggo  is currently offline sluggo
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I wonder how long Debbie has been preparing that discussion for the Parker's. She didn't even seem a bit surprised or angry. Just laid out the facts and let the Parker's do what they wanted. I do know that if they get rid of Val, Ricky is going to be imposible for the next sitter. As long as he had some idea that Val was going to come back, he was fine. But now you might see some real rebelling from the kid.

From a quick scan (don't you love grep) Lisa didn't tell Travis that Val was sick, just that she was busy with everything else going on at McAllen. (Check the end of #109.) In #118 its been almost a month since Travis and Val have even seen each other. Travis was still quite passionate about Val after 2 weeks. I don't think that he would start "seriously" dating someone new yet.

I loved hearing from Tuck again. I was also glad that the desision to get up and moving was hurting him. (I know that sounds evil, but I still don't think many people would even try leaving the house yet, yet he is driving and babysitting.) Every day things are getting a bit more real to him. He is realizing that going back to school is going to be really rough. He still wants to go, but now he knows that he can't just go now. He also knows that a lot of stuff is being done in his interest, without his knowledge and that is starting to piss him off. Sarah and Debbie are going to have to sit down and explain everything that they have masterminded to him.

THANK YOU ELLEN for another great chapter.


-sluggo-
Re: Anne and Travis [message #4624] Wed, 12 July 2006 02:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Doragoon wrote on Tue, 11 July 2006 05:52

Quote:

if Anne had an innocent reason for being there, SHE'D have come down to try and explain it.
Who's to say they didn't? 40 minutes is a long time for mike to let Tuck sit in the car and cry. There's no reason to believe that someone didn't come out and talk to Tuck, or invite him in and talk for 30 minutes or so.

If someone can tell me differently, great, but I don't think Ellen's ever omitted anything as significant as a further encounter between Tuck and either Anne or Travis would have been at that particular time. I feel obliged to conclude that Tuck hasn't met or talked to anyone other than Mike during those 40 minutes.

Eric
Re: Anne and Travis [message #4625] Wed, 12 July 2006 03:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Brooke wrote on Tue, 11 July 2006 10:46

Whoa!

I think you read *way* too much into that unspoken question. I read that (and still do) as "Are you & Travis an item?" (ie "are you his girlfriend?" as opposed to "just a date")

Looking at it again, you're probably right. I'm not sure why I thought there was more to it than that when I first read it.
Re: #118 [message #4626] Wed, 12 July 2006 03:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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sluggo wrote on Tue, 11 July 2006 22:36

I wonder how long Debbie has been preparing that discussion for the Parkers. She didn't even seem a bit surprised or angry. Just laid out the facts and let the Parkers do what they wanted.

Particularly so if Tuck's narration was accurate about Debbie bringing up a specific court case to support her position.

sluggo, continued

In #118 its been almost a month since Travis and Val have even seen each other. Travis was still quite passionate about Val after 2 weeks. I don't think that he would start "seriously" dating someone new yet.
Certainly makes one wonder if Lisa said something malicious to Travis (or something encouraging to Anne) after the shooting incident that changed things.

sluggo, continued

Tuck also knows that a lot of stuff is being done in his interest, without his knowledge and that is starting to piss him off. Sarah and Debbie are going to have to sit down and explain everything that they have masterminded to him.

That's not quite what I'm getting:

-- Tuck did get some explanations from the family the morning after the strike began, which impacted him so little that we still haven't heard about them ourselves.

-- Tuck asked Mike for and got a written report, which so far he has refused to read. Tuck's actively avoiding his mother in large part to avoid listening to more detail on what's going on.

-- I get the feeling that while Tuck knows that everything Debbie's doing happens to further his own interests as well as hers, Tuck's not ready to deal with the situation beyond keeping himself alive and functional. Annoyance may (as you said) be setting in, but neither second-guessing nor taking further control seems to be in Tuck's immediate plans.

Eric
Re: Parkers [message #4627] Wed, 12 July 2006 07:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
karen_page  is currently offline karen_page
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There is a lot of help to keep Val babysitting. It seems to have been forgotten, especially by Val, that she agreed to take the male hormones and would bow out of the sitting.

The parents also haven't appeared to push Val into stopping sitting. Has Bill come round slightly, or is he just easing back on the situation until Tuck is a bit better? Over the last few chapters he certainly has appeared to support Tuck over Sarah over this.

Re: #118 [message #4628] Wed, 12 July 2006 11:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Just my drive-by thought for the day:

Is it just me, or has Tuck had most of Tuck's reasons to be Valerie taken away recently? The parents know, the employers know, Travis may be out of the picture now.

It's far from complete, but it seems like Tuck is running out of external excuses to be Valerie. I'll be interested in seeing just how Tuck deals with that. Tuck has never been big on introspection; but I bet Tuck comes up with some reason to stay Valerie, no matter how irrelevant to the earlier excuses it is.
Re: #118 [message #4629] Wed, 12 July 2006 19:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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What if Tuck were to start back to school--as Valerie?

Since I don't think Ellen is going that way, maybe it's worth a fanfic. Smile

- Erin
Re: #118 Random thoughts .... [message #4630] Wed, 12 July 2006 22:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Timeline of marginal importance

25 Sep - We learn about Tuck's genetics
2 Oct - Travis and Val argues - last contact with each other
3 Oct Fri - Sarah finds Tuck at Mall with Stella
5 Oct - Debbie and Sarah discuss Valerie's job
9 Oct Thu - Tuck assaulted in locker room - Debbie assists Mike at ER, she invokes spousal authority
Oct 11 Sat- Homecoming Dance w/o cheerleaders
Oct 12 Sun - Tuck awakened by his favourite soothing music...
Oct 13 Mon - Tuck's laptop phone's home (ok,ok, it pings the firewall...)and leads to some of the perps
Oct 15 Wed - Sarah reins in Debbie to strategize propaganda
Oct 16 Thu - Tuck flash "shoots" Debbie, Band Hall was vandalized Thu nite
Oct 17 Fri - Upset Band students becoming discontent, Kelly outs herself at noon, fights are starting
Oct 20 Mon - Valerie returns to babysitting - more fights at McAllen breakout
Oct 21 Tue - Strike at McAllen

Chapt 96 (Sep 25) was posted in May 2003, three years ago reader time. But it's only been three and half weeks, Tuck time. A LOT HAS HAPPENED to Tuck in three weeks, particularly Oct 3 thru Oct 22. IMHO I think we sometimes overanalyze the depth of what our beloved teen characters can be thinking or planning (as if this were the real world), of course, if any overanalyzing is expected, then it should be Ellen's intentions....

As late as Oct 16, there's a dinner conversation between Deb and Lisa, over the ignorance about Val by Travis (much of it info kept from him). So the speculation that Travis has given up on Val may be premature. Why Anne is there can be equally innocent as well as damning. Ellen may not have rolled the plot dice on this yet.

Since Oct 9, Debbie has become more involved with the Tuckers. Her role in the story has increased significantly, to facilitate change at McAllen. However, a key player in the school politics, I am waiting to see Dobson reveal himself as a leader (or not) - currently he's passive aggressive for political reasons. While he may not be technically astute with all of the office computer issues, you don't rise to Principle, leaping over a few heads, without some grey matter (maybe a school board member is a friend of "Betty"). At some point, he might possibly manipulate Sarah and Debbie to help structure the school to a more tolerant environment. Let's face it, politically, if it fails, he can blame it on Sarah and Debbie's meddling, if it succeeds he wins. Someday, Tuck and Debbie will graduate and be gone, he still has to live with the consequences, plus he has his own personal interest for tolerance.

Travis has been only passing mentions (IMHO at least) since Oct 2. I don't think Lisa sees Val as a rival with Debbie, as to be malicious in dealing with Travis. It buys her nothing - though, I still want to understand what was the deal that Lisa got from Travis to set up the Christmas party date with Val 9 months earlier. It can explain a lot about Travis and Lisa. They seem to be more acquaintances than friends, judging by Lisa's condescending attitude towards Travis. Actually, Lisa seems condescending to everyone, except Debbie...

A lot of characters were developed and "plot positioned" in the multi-POV chapters, particularly Kelly, Jody, and Debbie. It helped round out the story. I don't think this storytelling device should be abandoned, maybe use it once every 7-8 chapters to allow us to see the Tuck universe outside of Tuck's misperception. I understand that some of you may argue that that's the purpose of the single POV. Just my opinion...

The potential of major negative ramifications between Val and the Parkers are now minimized. Parkers know about Val and are still allowing her babysitting. Besides Val's relationship with the Pack, it has been Val's only environment where Val experiences and learns "feminine" nurturing. If the Parkers continue to keep Val, has this environment been tainted? Could she now hold and cuddle Ricky when he's hurt without Beth Parker thinking "pervert"? Val was comfortable because she was fully accepted as female. Val is not comfortable now. Beth will have to naturally react to Val as a female, as a catalyst for Valerie to feel this comfort again, otherwise the babysitting job is doomed.

Are we going to see a conclusion to the Tuck series on Halloween? A conclusion in 9 days Tuck time is still compressing a lot of subplots to satisfactory resolutions...
Re: #118 Random thoughts .... [message #4631] Wed, 12 July 2006 23:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Thanks for the timeline. It's good to have a reminder about how quickly things are developing.

lurker wrote on Wed, 12 July 2006 19:11

I don't think Lisa sees Val as a rival with Debbie, as to be malicious in dealing with Travis. It buys her nothing...

No, any malice would be related specifically to the incident on Thursday. Lisa felt Tuck needed to pay for his actions, and depriving him of Travis would be a relatively easy way to do that. It could be accomplished at Red Bluff and therefore wouldn't interfere with or complicate anything that Debbie was doing at McAllen. (Only question to hold her back would be whether Lisa thinks Sarah Tucker knows about and approves of Travis, and further would suspect Lisa's involvement in a breakup. That seems like a longshot to me. I'd agree with you that I don't think Lisa would fear Tuck (or Val) as a competitor for Debbie's affection.)

lurker, continued

The potential of major negative ramifications between Val and the Parkers are now minimized. Parkers know about Val and are still allowing her babysitting.

More "reduced" than minimized, I think. There was a lot of stick (threat of getting Cindy fired, discussion about legal action) involved in the decision along with the carrot of tolerance, etc.

Besides Val's relationship with the Pack, it has been Val's only environment where Val experiences and learns "feminine" nurturing. If the Parkers continue to keep Val, has this environment been tainted?

Completely so, IMO. The only question left, I think, is how to spare Ricky from the meltdown. He's too good recognizing feelings and emotions to be fooled for long by reassurances from Val and his parents, if the latter are forthcoming at all.

The big point here, though, which Ellen has now made explicit, is that the Parkers provided a low-stress environment for Val (and, perhaps more to the point, for Tuck, who was under maximum stress at school, and at considerable stress at home trying to avoid exposure).

Improvement in Tuck's medical condition over time should reduce Tuck's current concern over the Parker house becoming a medically life-threatening situation for him. But I'm pretty sure he'll never regain Beth Parker's complete support and confidence. Even if he does, the fact that it disappeared once won't let Val ever take it for granted. Accordingly, it'll never be a comfort zone again.

Eric
Re: Parkers [message #4632] Thu, 13 July 2006 00:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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karen_page wrote on Wed, 12 July 2006 04:22

The parents also haven't appeared to push Val into stopping sitting. Has Bill come round slightly, or is he just easing back on the situation until Tuck is a bit better? Over the last few chapters he certainly has appeared to support Tuck over Sarah over this.

I think Bill Tucker, ideally, would like to see Tuck come to a rational decision to quit sitting, based on degree of threat vs. reward, and other quantifiable factors. (He doesn't know yet, of course, that the situation has changed considerably since Val resumed sitting.) As for Tuck vs Sarah, I think the description that we got from Bill's own POV when Tuck said he'd be returning to school applies: Bill thinks they're both wrong.

Eric
Re: #118 [message #4633] Thu, 13 July 2006 00:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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OtherEric wrote on Wed, 12 July 2006 08:40

Just my drive-by thought for the day:

Is it just me, or has Tuck had most of Tuck's reasons to be Valerie taken away recently? The parents know, the employers know, Travis may be out of the picture now.

It's far from complete, but it seems like Tuck is running out of external excuses to be Valerie. I'll be interested in seeing just how Tuck deals with that. Tuck has never been big on introspection; but I bet Tuck comes up with some reason to stay Valerie, no matter how irrelevant to the earlier excuses it is.


I think you're right on both points.

But there's still Ricky. I'm pretty sure everyone involved (including Tuck) feels, rightly or wrongly, that trying to explain the intersex concept to Ricky would interfere with his normal childhood development. So it'll be Val babysitting as long as the job continues. (I suspect, though, that short of banning all contact between them, they won't be able to keep Ricky in the dark for the rest of the year.)

Eric
Re: #118 [message #4634] Thu, 13 July 2006 00:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Wed, 12 July 2006 16:20

What if Tuck were to start back to school--as Valerie?

Since I don't think Ellen is going that way, maybe it's worth a fanfic. Smile

- Erin


Well, Rachel would be the natural for it, since her Tuck *did* go that route.

But I have reason to believe that she's kinda busy with her existing stuff. Smile
Re: Anne and Travis [message #4635] Thu, 13 July 2006 03:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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Eric wrote on Wed, 12 July 2006 02:53

Doragoon wrote on Tue, 11 July 2006 05:52

Quote:

if Anne had an innocent reason for being there, SHE'D have come down to try and explain it.
Who's to say they didn't? 40 minutes is a long time for mike to let Tuck sit in the car and cry. There's no reason to believe that someone didn't come out and talk to Tuck, or invite him in and talk for 30 minutes or so.

If someone can tell me differently, great, but I don't think Ellen's ever omitted anything as significant as a further encounter between Tuck and either Anne or Travis would have been at that particular time. I feel obliged to conclude that Tuck hasn't met or talked to anyone other than Mike during those 40 minutes.

Eric

She could reveal what happened in the next chapter like she did with chapters 50 & 51.

For the last two scenes in chapter 50, there was a time jump from 20:51 27 Jun where they were finishing dinner to 22:37 27 Jun where Val and Travis were making out somewhere.

At the begining of Chapter 51, those two scenes are repeated along with a lot of what happened in the intervening 1hr 46min.
Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4636] Thu, 13 July 2006 03:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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Brooke wrote on Sun, 09 July 2006 19:56

I'd also give a *lot* to know what sort of look was on Anne's face.

Maybe Val wasn't reacting to the emotion being displayed so much as smudged lipstick or some other visual indicator(s) that Anne had been locking lips with, presumably, Travis.
Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4637] Thu, 13 July 2006 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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maltor wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 00:57

Maybe Val wasn't reacting to the emotion being displayed so much as smudged lipstick or some other visual indicator(s) that Anne had been locking lips with, presumably, Travis.

Well, the operative word here is presumably. However remote or unlikely, Travis could easily be elsewhere and loaned his friend the Suburban and access to his place while he is out for the evening, so his friends (which include Anne) could have some uninterrupted privacy. Intimate relationships in a car or van aren't so romantic in many a young lady's mind, and not all teens have their own private pads. It's obvious that Ellen is having us hang on this one until it gets explained later....
Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4638] Thu, 13 July 2006 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Doragoon wrote on Tue, 11 July 2006 09:31

Or if Ellen is really evil she'll start the next morning giving us no clue what happened and both tuck and us running along with our misconceived ideas.


Whoa! What a GREAT idea!
*scraps a chapter and a half and starts over*


Ellen
nosig
Tuck #118 Nightgown minutia ... [message #4639] Thu, 13 July 2006 21:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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From evening Oct 20, Chapt 117

"Are you wearing a nightgown?" she burst out.
"What?" Tucker looked down at himself. "No! This's a tank top. Why'd you think it was a nightgown?" Tucker frowned at her. "Are you okay? You seem a little..."

21:02 21 Oct

When I picked up the tank top and smelled it, to see if it was still useable, it reminded me of Sabrina a week ago. *Wait, that wasn't a week,* I remembered dimly. It just felt like it. *Still, this doesn't look anything like a nightgown,* I thought as I held it up and looked at it. It was white, which shouldn't count but might have, but that was about it. Unless she called a 'nightgown' anything anyone slept in, like Jill's oversized T shirts.

When the subject of the nightgown was first brought up, I thought it was just to introduce insignificant character idiosyncracies and bantering to fill a story. Outside of Tuck's confusing sense of time (last night versus last week) discussing the subject of the nightgown vs tank top seemed to have a purpose. Looking for anyone's opinion if this apparent minutia in the story has any relevance, either in Tuck's head or Sabrina's...

I have a bad third eye, I have a tendency to see things that aren't really there. Someday, I'll be diagnosed a real paranoid... Confused

[Updated on: Thu, 13 July 2006 21:18]

Re: Tuck #118 Nightgown minutia ... [message #4640] Thu, 13 July 2006 21:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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lurker wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 18:13

Outside of Tuck's confusing sense of time (last night versus last week) discussing the subject of the nightgown vs tank top seemed to have a purpose. Looking for anyone's opinion if this apparent minutia in the story has any relevance, either in Tuck's head or Sabrina's...

I can't come up with any, other than answering the ambiguity from the last chapter (especially after it became a point of discussion here), or to set up some sort of reversal later (e.g., Tuck decides to make it to Sabrina's sleepover, looks for Amy's nightgown and discovers that he's worn it recently).

Eric
Re: Tuck #118 Nightgown minutia ... [message #4641] Thu, 13 July 2006 22:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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It's a tanktop unless a girl is wearing it, then it's a nightgown. Smile I think it was a way to show that Sabrina sees Tuck as female. When in Tuck mode, Tuck does not notice there are boobies in his cereal, er, clothing. Smile

- Erin
Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4642] Thu, 13 July 2006 23:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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lurker wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 14:51

Well, the operative word here is presumably. However remote or unlikely, Travis could easily be elsewhere and loaned his friend the Suburban and access to his place while he is out for the evening, so his friends (which include Anne) could have some uninterrupted privacy. Intimate relationships in a car or van aren't so romantic in many a young lady's mind, and not all teens have their own private pads. It's obvious that Ellen is having us hang on this one until it gets explained later....



I've been thinking about how Travis had a girlfriend who was out of town when he originally met Valerie. Could Anne have been that girlfriend and, over the last month with Travis worried about Valerie, has tried to "comfort" Travis in the hopes of winning him back? It's one of the few things that make sense to me.

In many ways Travis reminds me of my older brother. He was a popular jock in high school but extremely shy around girls. We've seen Travis being incredibly shy with Valerie, even after their first couple of dates. We even saw Travis so nervous on the third date (7 Mar) that Valerie "restarted" everything. Based on this, I think that Travis is just incredibly shy rather than gay.

Last, in chapter 51 (22:08 27 Jun) Val asks why Travis likes him and he says it's because she reads similar things to what he does, in fact that she reads at all. Anne (typical cheerleader type based on Val's opinion of her at parties) does not seem like a girl that Travis would start dating this quickly after Val.
Alternative Explanations [message #4643] Fri, 14 July 2006 01:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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lurker wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 12:51

maltor wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 00:57

Maybe Val wasn't reacting to the emotion being displayed so much as smudged lipstick or some other visual indicator(s) that Anne had been locking lips with, presumably, Travis.

Well, the operative word here is presumably. However remote or unlikely, Travis could easily be elsewhere and loaned his friend the Suburban and access to his place while he is out for the evening, so his friends (which include Anne) could have some uninterrupted privacy. Intimate relationships in a car or van aren't so romantic in many a young lady's mind, and not all teens have their own private pads. It's obvious that Ellen is having us hang on this one until it gets explained later....


Seems to me that the "unasked question" dovetails too nicely with the two occasions when Val nonverbally answered Anne's (seemingly) identical unspoken inquiry. I'll be very surprised if Anne isn't asserting a serious relationship with Travis.

What Travis will do about it when he finds that he's been inadvertently emulating Sheila the First by abandoning someone who was hospitalized remains to be seen. He may not be the pure and noble Boy Scout that Val thought he was, but I can't see him as a hypocrite.

Eric
Hey, Wait a Minute... [message #4644] Fri, 14 July 2006 01:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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18:42 23 Oct

It was looking at supper that made me think of Travis[...]
"Wh- Oh, heck, we never did..."
"Ahrk!"
"You never did listen to your voicemail, did you," he stated.[...]
"Noooo!" I moaned. "But-"
"I donít know if this is a good idea," Mike warned.
"I HAVE to- and if he sees me like THIS, and I can show him-"
"No, bad." He ran his fingers through his hair as he looked away.
"No it isn't! He wouldn't-"
"Shut UP," he said. "I'll help, but shut up."
I shut.[...]
"Your pager's gone, right?" he asked.
"Yeah?" *So?*
He nodded at something. "Okay, call him now."

What's with the voicemail question? Travis has never had access to Tuck's voicemail, only Val's pager and presumably her email address (or a dummy address that allowed Travis's email to get to Tuck's machine). Did Mike give him the voicemail number three weeks ago when he saw Travis around the weekend of the communication lockdown? Seems unlikely; Travis still didn't seem to have it when he asked Lisa what was going on, last Thursday.

Eric
Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4645] Fri, 14 July 2006 06:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

Whoa! What a GREAT idea!
*scraps a chapter and a half and starts over*

See, this is why Whateley died and Tuck won't. In the Whateley forum, someone would have yelled, "You can't tell us what to write!" and maybe banned me from the chat room. However, Ellen is able to take my comment and use it as an opportunity to be evil by responding with a hopefully sarcastic comment and not really giving anything away. (Except that she's evil which we all knew already.)


Quote:

Anne have been that girlfriend and, over the last month with Travis worried about Valerie, has tried to "comfort" Travis in the hopes of winning him back?

Didn't Travis indicate that that was just a line he used. I mean, his mother was setting him up on dates. This isn't the kinda guy to have one in each port. However, I can see that Anne could be trying to get rid of Val by pretending to be closer to Travis than she really is thus giving herself a better chance with him.


Quote:

What's with the voicemail question?

Val has her own voicemail box on Tuck's system. I'm pretty sure that he's used it before, as in, before Tuck got the pager.
Re: Hey, Wait a Minute... [message #4646] Fri, 14 July 2006 15:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Eric's query on story continuity led me to the following:
Eric wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 22:55

Did Mike give him the voicemail number three weeks ago when he saw Travis around the weekend of the communication lockdown?

Well, Ellen will now say he did... Rolling Eyes
Eric wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 22:55


Seems unlikely; Travis still didn't seem to have it when he asked Lisa what was going on, last Thursday. Eric


In defense of Val...
21:01 6 Oct


I actually had email again. This one was from Mike.
<Talked to Travis,> he'd written an hour ago. <He's pissed. Give him some time to think about things. WHY didn't you TELL him about your other (original) life?>
"Well, it didn't come up!" I complained loudly back at the email.
<You dumbass,> he continued. <That's what he's most pissed about. He told me he'll call you in a few days. Suggest you don't call him first.>

This last part implies a phone number was given to Travis...however, I can't help think that Mike would violate a Tucker security protocol - volunteering such information without permission. However, as Mike's been the guardian of Tuck's health I'm sure he thought it was in Tuck's best mental interest...
Also, Val was told by Mike not to contact Travis until Travis contacted her, and she probably followed that advice. Include the fact that Val's sense of time was still off (illustrated by thoughts regarding Sabrina and the nightgown) Val's mental clarity to respond to her environment including communications was poor. Which probably has led to the present status between them.
From One of These Days, 14 Oct


"From a little questioning," Lisa said as she forked her salad around, "_I_ don't think the little shit has mentioned to Travis that he's, uh, not quite one thing or the other.
...later...
"Has he been calling Valerie?"
"Yeah; no answer, and he's been paging her too."
"Shit... I hadn't heard anything about the pager," she explained."

The email between Tuck and Mike implies that Travis is certainly aware of Tuck/Val's double life. What it illustrates here is Travis maybe protecting Val's privacy (as well as his own) from Lisa? Travis may think that Lisa doesn't know about Tuck/Val. Lisa, certainly doesn't know that they've been physically intimate or the subject wouldn't have come up.
This leads to a thought: Does Debbie know that Travis and Val were in a physical relationship as opposed to just dating? Is there real justification to Tuck's fear of Debbie's reaction?

[Updated on: Fri, 14 July 2006 15:59]

Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4647] Sat, 15 July 2006 00:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Doragoon wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 03:45

Val has her own voicemail box on Tuck's system. I'm pretty sure that he's used it before, as in, before Tuck got the pager.

No, Tuck set up the "Val" box for Jack, and he's the only one who ever used it during the story -- which is why Tuck never remembers to check it. Inertia seems to be the only reason it's still there; if it had remained in active use, the Pack, most of whom prefer to think of Tuck as Val (or at least tend to say "Hey, Val" when he picks up the phone), would have been leaving their messages in that box, and it's clear that they weren't doing so.

Before the pager, Travis had to go through Lisa, Val's "social director", to reach her. But Val and Travis didn't get seriously involved until the pager was available; for one thing, Travis didn't know Val was local.
Re: Hey, Wait a Minute... [message #4648] Sat, 15 July 2006 01:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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lurker wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 12:50

Travis may think that Lisa doesn't know about Tuck/Val.

Travis told Val that he learned Val "used to be a guy" by getting Lisa drunk. If that's true, then what Travis was trying to avoid letting Lisa know was that he knows that she knows. (If anyone can follow that.)

Of course, we now know (via the email from Mike) that Travis DIDN'T know that Tuck was still operating in male mode at school and at home. Given Lisa's personal and business relationship with Debbie, would Travis think it possible that Lisa's unaware of that? I guess it's conceivable. (Would he have asked Mike about it, and would Mike have answered if he did?)

Eric
Re: Hey, Wait a Minute... [message #4649] Sat, 15 July 2006 05:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Me hat's off for the duchess. It's a tangle worthy of old W.S. Smile
Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4650] Sun, 16 July 2006 05:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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How much detail does everyone think Mike and Tuck went into when describing his condition to the Parkers? Also, since Debbie was complaining at the end of chapter 107 that she knew about the biology lecture in the Tuckers basement, but that nobody would tell her anything more than the fact that it took place, does she now know as much as the Parkers or had someone else explained things to her before this?

I think that as much as she wants to keep the contract with the Parkers, any frustration she might have felt at having to show up and fight for it was mitigated by finally learning some of what was discussed at the basement lecture.
Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4651] Mon, 17 July 2006 03:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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maltor wrote on Sun, 16 July 2006 02:19

How much detail does everyone think Mike and Tuck went into when describing his condition to the Parkers?

More, actually, than I expected, since the one statement we get has to do with the internal difference between the female side of Val's interior and the other (tumorous) side.

My best guess is that Mike went into as much detail as he could in an effort to "blind them with science" and maintain control of the situation.

maltor, continued

Also, since Debbie was complaining at the end of chapter 107 that she knew about the biology lecture in the Tuckers basement, but that nobody would tell her anything more than the fact that it took place, does she now know as much as the Parkers or had someone else explained things to her before this?

Good question, especially since she missed most of Mike's presentation here. I'm not sure whether she actually knows as much, now, as the Parkers do; her part of the presentation would have been involved with the events during and after Tuck's assault, along with better keying the whole situation to what she knows about the Parkers' attitudes and worldview.

I can't really think of any previous point at which Debbie would have had things explained to her. Mike could have explained it in the hospital ER as he was cleaning up, I suppose, but I doubt that it would have been at or near the top of his list of subjects. And it certainly doesn't sound like something Sarah Tucker would have conversed about with Debbie and Lisa at the restaurant. Outside of that, Debbie's been so preoccupied with the school project that she'd have seen any time spent satisfying her curiosity as a misuse of resources.

Eric
Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4652] Tue, 18 July 2006 21:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Eric wrote on Mon, 17 July 2006 00:41

...she missed most of Mike's presentation here. I'm not sure whether she actually knows as much, now, as the Parkers do; her part of the presentation would have been involved with the events during and after Tuck's assault...

I'm inclined to believe she still knows very little because Mike spent ten minutes before Debbie's arrival going over Tuck's genetics in detail, nor does it seem likely that Mike was able to spend much time in his call to Debbie other than to come quickly as possible to the Parker's and telling her to "play his lead" when she arrives. I think we are seeing Debbie's natural quick wit at the Parker's meeting, with her skill of influencing the Parkers, turning Valerie from a perceived threat to a victim. But I don't think she knows any specific details about Tuck, just acting as if she does.
Mr. Parker has suddenly become an interesting character as he appears to be unconcerned about Valerie, as opposed to Beth Parker.
from 17:05 21 Oct


"Well, Beth, you did ask for a girl," Mister Parker said...
Miz Parker started, "I ASKED for a girl because-"
"That's what I don't understand," Mr. Parker interrupted..

I gather from this he didn't seem to care if the babysitter was male or female and is the most open-minded of the two.
As I mentioned earlier, the Parker environment is now probably tainted for Valerie. One wonders how much of Mrs. Parker's fear about Valerie would change if Susan were to show up at the door one evening to pick up Val? Would the visualization of a sister with a close resemblance and similar speech pattern provide enough diminution in Beth's mind, that to Beth, Valerie is not a perverted cross-dresser, and thus allow the environment to become more comfortable for Val? Right now, it looks like Valerie might be quitting as this is no longer an emotional safe-haven for her...

[Updated on: Tue, 18 July 2006 21:54]

Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4653] Wed, 19 July 2006 00:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I think the refrigerator comment showed that Beth is willing to be defused. Smile
"You Did Ask for a Girl..." [message #4654] Wed, 19 July 2006 04:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Since Lurker brought it up...
from 17:05 21 Oct


"Well, Beth, you did ask for a girl," Mister Parker said...
Miz Parker started, "I ASKED for a girl because-"
"That's what I don't understand," Mr. Parker interrupted..

Is the implication there that Debbie would have had Tuck show up in male mode if Beth Parker hadn't requested a girl? That doesn't seem like something that you tell a customer -- that in effect they never had a choice in the matter. If that's the implication, it also seems crippling to the main argument: that Val is "real" and not just a convenient way for D&E to market Tuck's services.

Eric
Beth Parker and Val [message #4655] Wed, 19 July 2006 04:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 21:13

I think the refrigerator comment showed that Beth is willing to be defused. Smile

The question isn't really about Beth, though; it's about Val's comfort level. I don't think that's going to come back.
Re: Beth Parker and Val [message #4656] Wed, 19 July 2006 22:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Eric wrote on Wed, 19 July 2006 09:10

Erin Halfelven wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 21:13

I think the refrigerator comment showed that Beth is willing to be defused. Smile

The question isn't really about Beth, though; it's about Val's comfort level. I don't think that's going to come back.


Then it seems she has to make a choice between "Real life" and escaping from it ^_- Personally, I hope she will tough it through.
Re: Beth Parker and Val [message #4657] Thu, 20 July 2006 01:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Is Tuck really comfortable anywhere?
Re: Beth Parker and Val [message #4658] Thu, 20 July 2006 02:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Wed, 19 July 2006 22:45

Is Tuck really comfortable anywhere?

A very good question. I could be wrong, but it seems like Valerie was more comfortable a lot of places than Eugene. Sitting was an excellent example of this; but that's probably no longer the case. How comfortable Tuck appears there over the next few sessions will be very telling, I think...
Re: Beth Parker and Val [message #4659] Thu, 20 July 2006 02:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Wed, 19 July 2006 22:45

Is Tuck really comfortable anywhere?

Not any more. Could he find a new oasis? I'm not sure how he could even search for one at this point, short of heading for Louisiana and the Laniers. (And he wouldn't do that right now because it would leave his friends in danger at school.)

Sheila the shrink might have some ideas, I guess, except that I'm inclined to doubt that Tuck or even the family would take them seriously. The Pack would probably like to find someplace where Val can relax, starting with this weekend's sleepover. (Actually, the Gay Cafe could work, if they could convince Tuck that nobody there cares whether he dresses consistently from one week to the next.)

Eric
Re: Beth Parker and Val [message #4660] Thu, 20 July 2006 15:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I think that Beth is more hurt than angry. Hurt that Val was keeping such major secrets from her, while she really wasn't keeping anything from Val. Val has helped Beth get dressed before. That would seem to me at least to be a very personal expirience (in retrospect). Finding out that the person that you admited into your bedroom wasn't who they said they were will really freak you out. Then there is the whole "how do we explain this to Ricky and the boys" part.

We all knew this was coming at some point. So far Beth is handling it better than most people would.

Anyone else think that as long as Mr. Parker gets to eat, he really dosn't care what the chef is wearing. Just kidding. He wants everyone to be happy. He knows that Beth was happy when Val came. He knows that Ricky is happy when Val is around. Stella dosn't seem to care either way.


-sluggo-
Has Sheila ever been helpful? [message #4661] Thu, 20 July 2006 20:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Eric wrote on Wed, 19 July 2006 23:55

Sheila the shrink might have some ideas, I guess, except that I'm inclined to doubt that Tuck or even the family would take them seriously.

I understand why Sheila exists in the story, since the time Tuck took a runner, but after 6+ months - has she really been helpful to Tuck? Has Tuck had any epiphanies on who or what (s)he is because of Sheila? It's funny because Bill/Sarah sent Tuck to Sheila to deal with such issues, and yet, I agree with Eric, that the family doesn't seem to take her any more seriously than Tuck does (remember her visit to hospital and Bill's reaction)- so what's the point? Is this a medical requirement by Doc Treble because of Tuck's response to Val's genetics? Pro forma? Mike does a better job getting into Tuck's head.
I sometimes view Sheila like the TV shrinks in Mr. Monk, or in the Sopranos, someone's just there to facilitate to the audience what the character feels but never really does anything...
Re: Beth Parker and Val [message #4662] Thu, 20 July 2006 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Eric wrote on Wed, 19 July 2006 23:55

Erin Halfelven wrote on Wed, 19 July 2006 22:45

Is Tuck really comfortable anywhere?

Not any more. Could he find a new oasis? I'm not sure how he could even search for one at this point, short of heading for Louisiana and the Laniers. (And he wouldn't do that right now because it would leave his friends in danger at school.)

Sheila the shrink might have some ideas, I guess, except that I'm inclined to doubt that Tuck or even the family would take them seriously. The Pack would probably like to find someplace where Val can relax, starting with this weekend's sleepover. (Actually, the Gay Cafe could work, if they could convince Tuck that nobody there cares whether he dresses consistently from one week to the next.)

Eric


I'm not sure *where* Tuck/Val will wind up eventually. But I begin to think things have reached a point where he hasn't really got anything to *lose* by trying to live exclusively as Val for a while.

It's not like the threat level at school could increase much.

The question that I can't answer is if he can think of something he'd *gain* by it (besides cutting down on clothes changes and stories to keep straight).

Wonder if Shiela can think of something? And if she can, if anybody will listen?

For that matter, even if the Tuckers listen, I see Sarah going ballistic. Not sure what Bill would do. Tuck's response is anybody's guess.

Re: Beth Parker and Val [message #4663] Thu, 20 July 2006 22:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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sluggo wrote on Thu, 20 July 2006 12:31

I think that Beth is more hurt than angry. Hurt that Val was keeping such major secrets from her, while she really wasn't keeping anything from Val. Val has helped Beth get dressed before. That would seem to me at least to be a very personal expirience (in retrospect). Finding out that the person that you admited into your bedroom wasn't who they said they were will really freak you out. Then there is the whole "how do we explain this to Ricky and the boys" part.


What's to explain to the boys? they have no more need to know what's in Val's underwear than they would with any other sitter.


sluggo wrote

We all knew this was coming at some point. So far Beth is handling it better than most people would.



Actually, I didn't expect it to come. It was a possibility, but I figured it was at least as likely that Tuck would start transitioning or something without the Parkers ever finding out.
Re: Has Sheila ever been helpful? [message #4664] Thu, 20 July 2006 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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lurker wrote on Thu, 20 July 2006 17:57

Eric wrote on Wed, 19 July 2006 23:55

Sheila the shrink might have some ideas, I guess, except that I'm inclined to doubt that Tuck or even the family would take them seriously.

I understand why Sheila exists in the story, since the time Tuck took a runner, but after 6+ months - has she really been helpful to Tuck? Has Tuck had any epiphanies on who or what (s)he is because of Sheila? It's funny because Bill/Sarah sent Tuck to Sheila to deal with such issues, and yet, I agree with Eric, that the family doesn't seem to take her any more seriously than Tuck does (remember her visit to hospital and Bill's reaction)- so what's the point? Is this a medical requirement by Doc Treble because of Tuck's response to Val's genetics? Pro forma? Mike does a better job getting into Tuck's head.


I think Shiela has gotten Tuck to consider a few things he wouldn't have on his own.

And trust me, Tuck hasn't been seeing her *nearly* long enough for "major" breakthroughs.

Also, consider the way the discovery of Val by Sarah would have played out if Shiela wasn't there. Tuck could have wound up isolated enough to either attempt suicide, or to have gotten killed by not caring enough to be careful.
Re: Has Sheila ever been helpful? [message #4665] Fri, 21 July 2006 01:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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lurker wrote on Thu, 20 July 2006 20:57

Eric wrote on Wed, 19 July 2006 23:55

Sheila the shrink might have some ideas, I guess, except that I'm inclined to doubt that Tuck or even the family would take them seriously.

I understand why Sheila exists in the story, since the time Tuck took a runner, but after 6+ months - has she really been helpful to Tuck? Has Tuck had any epiphanies on who or what (s)he is because of Sheila? ...

How many sessions has he danced around the issue of how he and Travis initially got together and how they were able to be seen together in public without creating a scene? Sheila only knows about Travis because Mike ordered it. If Sarah hadn't been at the mall that night she most likely still wouldn't know about Valerie.

Tuck's situation and the issues he needs help with are too complex for her to provide meaningful help when he keeps hiding CRITICAL information from her.
Comfort Zones [message #4666] Fri, 21 July 2006 07:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Wed, 19 July 2006 22:45

Is Tuck really comfortable anywhere?

It occurs to me there's one place where Tuck's condition is known, even taken in stride, without causing him any stress: John's beauty shop. I wonder if some sort of apprenticeship/work-study situation there might be in his future, even without completing the cosmetology class at McAllen. Admittedly, John did want Tuck/Val to choose a presentation before working there, but John's customers seem unlikely to be scared off by an androgynous assistant.

John's association with Debbie would be a negative, but there seem to be indications in the latest chapter that Tuck is ready to move beyond primal fear where Debbie's concerned. Actually, that last is probably worth a topic all its own...

Eric
Re: Comfort Zones [message #4670] Tue, 01 August 2006 09:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
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Mrs. Parker and Val after 118:

I think that Beth Parker is going to be fairly wary of Val for a
while but her discomfort is likely to wane a little over time.
I'd love for something like this to occur:
----------------------------------
Ricky was watching TV and Stella was playing happily in her
playpen when Mrs. Parker came into the kitchen. She'd really
calmed down about me in the last few days, but she'd been
watching me out of the corner of her eyes. "Valerie ...," she
started, then tilted her head toward the pool doors.

I wiped my hands on a towel and followed her out, leaving
the door open a crack to make it easier to listen for Stella.

Mrs. Parker took a chair on the far side of the picnic
table, where she'd be facing the door, and motioned me to the one
beside it where my back would be to the doors. I couldn't tell
if it was deliberate or not. "Valerie," she continued, "what I
really want to know is why."

I could guess what she wanted to know but I had to make
sure. "Why I was pretending to be a girl?" She nodded and I
started to explain, "Well, it started out with a Halloween
costume contest at school. Debbie and me were dating and she did
me up like this reely kewel valley grrrl."

Mrs. Parker smiled at the accent.

"So, after that it was kind of a joke that Debbie and her
girlfriends were playing on everyone, dressing me up and taking
me out. I started to enjoy it, once I got over being nervious,
being an honorary girl and one of the Pack."

I paused for a moment and waited for Mrs. Parker's nod of
understanding. "Anyway, when you and your friends wanted a day
out Debbie couldn't find anyone else and she drafted me. So
that's how you knew me as Valerie, and after that it woulda been
*really* hard to explain. I never *meant* to lie about it, it
just kinda happened."

Mrs, Parker nodded and started to say something, then
stopped and thought for a moment. "You and Debbie were dating,
as, uh, as boy and girl when this started? Didn't you think it
might be a bit odd, her dressing you up as a girl?"

"Well, I thought it might be a bit unusual but I wasn't
going to complain, especially when her mom didn't say anything
about Valerie spending the night."

Mrs. Parker gave a short bark of laughter then sobered
almost immediately. "So that's why the breakup with Debbie was
so bad."

I had to nod. "Yeah. It was pretty bad, but afterward
all my girlfriends, *Valerie's* girlfriends, rallied around me.
They didn't want to lose my friendship, either as Valerie *or*
Tuck." I shook my head and sighed. "I guess that's the other
reason I'd hate to give up being able to do Valerie."

"I don't quite understand. 'Give up being able to do Valerie?'"

"My family and my guy friends, the ones who know me as
Tuck, most of 'em want me to take hormones to make me more of
a guy." I made a motion toward my breasts. "Possibly even have
surgery. I hate hospitals and needles and the thought of taking
injections that might turn me into a male asshole really scares
me. It would mean giving up sitting Ricky and Stella, and
cooking dinner for you and Mr. Parker, and, and just being
someplace accepting and safe and *happy*...."

The whole thing just sucked me under at that point, like
the undertow in front of a really big wave that pulls you down
for the wave to roll you over and over. It just poured out of
me, all the frustrations and fears and unhappiness. When I came
up for air I found that Mrs. Parker had cuddled me like I did
Stella, with the dishtowel between us to keep my makeup off her
blouse.

I sat back and dabbed my eyes with a corner of the
towel. "Uh, sorry about coming unglued like that."

Mrs. Parker looked at me with this sad little smile
and shook her head. "I, *we*, had no idea of how bad.... Have
you talked to anyone about this, *all* of this?"

I thought of Mom the Inquisitor and Dad, and Travis and Sheila
the shrink, and Jack. "My sister Susan and my cousin Amy know,
but they don't live here. For the rest, some people know some
parts but nobody knows everything. Especially not about Travis.
And *he* didn't know about the non-Valerie parts, which is why he
was so mad."

Mrs. Parker sat back a little. "Valerie, I hope you'll
continue to work for us. We really appreciate what you've done,
and you've been such a positive influence on Ricky." She shook
her head a little. "I can't promise to understand what's
happening to you, but I can promise to listen if you need to
talk."

We both heard Stella make that "my diaper is icky" sound
and we both started to get up. Mrs Parker said, "I'll get this
one. You fix your makeup before you come in."
----------------------------------
Having Beth Parker as a nurturing motherly influence and
their house as a safe haven for Valerie would be good for Tuck,
at least in the short term. I'm not sure about what effect it
would have on Tuck in the long run.

As far as the Saga of Tuck is concerned, I have the
feeling that Beth Parker's not going to be this accepting. Ellen
has her own plans for Tuck, and I have the impression that
denying Tuck a safe haven for Valerie may fit into her Evil
Plans. Only time will tell, if Ellen sees fit to enlighten us.

Just my two zorkmids' worth.
Re: Comfort Zones [message #4672] Wed, 02 August 2006 05:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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I liked your storyline there (and am inclined to agree that Ellen doesn't have anything that warm and fuzzy in mind).

But the one thing you didn't really have Miz Parker consider in that scenario was the implication of Tuck dating Debbie and Val dating Travis, both to the point of having sex (since you have Val mention that about Debbie here). If forced to confront that issue, Miz Parker might see that it makes good sense from the standpoint of Tuck/Val trying to figure out where he/she fits in, but I can't see Miz Parker getting emotionally comfortable with the idea.

(Heck, it's hard to see TUCK getting emotionally comfortable with the idea, though Mike pressed the issue on him at least a couple of times, at the theme park and again at the mall. From that standpoint, I can see why Ellen seems to be engineering a breakup with Travis, which would make Tuck -- should he try to get into a new relationship -- have to look harder at whether his self-ID as a gay male has any validity.)

Eric
Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4674] Fri, 04 August 2006 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mthead  is currently offline mthead
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Lot of discussion about Val in this thread.
Actually, Val never showed up in #118. Everything was dealt with as Tuck.
Re: tuck #118 is up [message #4675] Sat, 05 August 2006 03:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
mthead wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 10:22

Actually, Val never showed up in #118. Everything was dealt with as Tuck.

I see your point, and would agree for the most part.

I'd question the point, though, in the case of the (non)showdown with Travis. Would Tuck overrule Mike as to the best way to explain the situation to Travis, the way Val did this time?

And although the 40-plus minute break between entries reduces certainty in the matter, that final scene certainly seemed to suggest more of an emotional collapse by Valerie than another asthma attack by Tuck. (And the reaction certainly seems different from the breakup with Debbie three months ago.)

Eric
Re: #118 Random thoughts .... [message #4685] Wed, 16 August 2006 12:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iWindoze  is currently offline iWindoze
Messages: 172
Registered: September 2002
Location: USA
Senior Member
[quote title=lurker wrote on Wed, 12 July 2006 21:11]
Timeline of marginal importance


Oct 12 Sun - Tuck awakened by his favourite soothing music...



Whoa! favorite ???!?!?

Quote:

*Mike? Why are you playing that horrible shit into...*

*What's going on, anyw-*

Memory returned in a rush.


And later,

Quote:

"He always did hate Modern English," Sarah said to Dana, as she wiped her eyes.

"No kidding." Dana would never have thought to try some sort of disliked music to wake someone up, but it had worked in this case. Sort of. Eugene hadn't done TOO much damage to himself, but he'd done enough, and that was after the morphine she'd ordered into his IV port before they'd tried it.

"Mother of God..." Dana mentioned as she scanned the ECG strip. He'd gone from a resting pulse of around 55 or so, to 65 or so when he first moved, then shot up to 170 in less than a second. He still hadn't recovered from that; the monitor showed he was trotting along at 85, though his pO2 was hovering around 93 percent. He was still having trouble breathing, though; several days of congestion, mucus, asthma byproducts, and possibly blood had to be impairing his ventilation. He needed to cough it all out, which was going to present a problem.


Looks to me like someone needs to go back and re-read #107 again...

--iWindoze

PS: Is anyone else having extreme difficulty logging in? I'll try to make a thread about it if the server will let me but it literally tok me over ten minutes to get to the login page, and from there get logged in!! The [ c o d e ] tags seem to be broken too....

Re: #118 Random thoughts .... [message #4686] Wed, 16 August 2006 14:47 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
Messages: 290
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Location: Bristol, UK
Senior Member
iWindoze wrote on Wed, 16 August 2006 17:17

lurker wrote on Wed, 12 July 2006 21:11

Timeline of marginal importance


Oct 12 Sun - Tuck awakened by his favourite soothing music...




Whoa! favorite ???!?!?


... etc.

Quote:

Looks to me like someone needs to go back and re-read #107 again...


Um, someone missed the sarcasm memo? Razz


Rachel
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