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Tuck 120 [message #4765] Sun, 10 September 2006 21:38 Go to next message
Quoth  is currently offline Quoth
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... is up! Very Happy
Re: Tuck 120 [message #4766] Sun, 10 September 2006 21:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Good, too. Smile Made me want to bake cookies. Smile
Re: Tuck 120 [message #4767] Sun, 10 September 2006 22:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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I wonder if Bill and Sarah are listening in? Finding that Tuck is being addressed as both Val and Tuck....OTOH, I'm surprised that Tuck doesn't warn the gang of that potential (recall Tuck's paranoia of Sheila's office being bugged by Bill?)

'And E.T. was Old Yeller from outer space,'?Laughing Love that...
Re: Tuck 120 [message #4768] Mon, 11 September 2006 01:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cate
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Anyone else get the feeling Sarah was more ready to extend her "everyone has a right to chose" liberalism to Kelly, than she was to Tuck? Usually we are more willing to extend sympathy to our own, before doing it to strangers. Tuck is in for a long row to hoe.
Re: Tuck 120 [message #4769] Mon, 11 September 2006 02:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Cate wrote on Sun, 10 September 2006 22:10

Anyone else get the feeling Sarah was more ready to extend her "everyone has a right to chose" liberalism to Kelly, than she was to Tuck? Usually we are more willing to extend sympathy to our own, before doing it to strangers. Tuck is in for a long row to hoe.

No, Sarah hasn't had any problem that we've seen with sexual orientation. (Tuck thought she would, but it seemed clear to me that it was just part of Tuck's "I've failed you" guilt trip, compounded by his own mental discomfort on the issue, which we've seen occasionally. It's hard for me to imagine Sarah having said anything in the past that would justify Tuck's concern.)

For Sarah, it's a question that's been part of political discourse for a long time, and she undoubtedly established her position on it long before it mattered to the family, unless she has or had some gay friends or relatives that Tuck doesn't know about. Apart from anything else, gay acceptance is something that liberals and libertarians agree upon, so the only arguments the other way come from people with whom Sarah would have no sympathy.

A gender identity question, on the other hand, is something newly relevant to her that she's having emotional trouble accepting in Tuck. (FWIW, my feeling is that if Tuck had told Sarah and Bill that he identified as female, she'd suppress her discomfort and help make it happen; conversely, if he opted for the testosterone injections and cosmetic surgery, she'd be satisfied with that. But Tuck's indecision leaves her unable to create a plan to protect him from this particular problem, which stymies her on more than one level, leaving only the emotional discomfort.)

Eric
Re: Tuck 120 [message #4770] Mon, 11 September 2006 03:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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A few notes:

- At 20:06, another reference by Tuck to "the other girls" at a point where he's engaged in a primarily-Tuck activity (in his room, taking his medication, with Mike and Jill at the door).

- It's puzzling to me why Ellen excluded Kim from this gathering. A couple of possibilites come to mind: one, we miss out on learning whether Kim's interest in "womyn's" poetry has led to (or derived from) any lesbian experiences; two, if she doesn't know about the nature of the relationship between Debbie and Lisa, her absence here leaves her ignorant.

- If the kitchen is indeed under inventory control via barcode, I wonder how item usage is handled. Does the cook have to use the scanner again when something gets cooked or consumed? Seems to me that using the same automatic device for pluses and minuses would get things hopelessly confused in no time, but otherwise, you have someone sitting down and doing data entry at a keyboard after every meal.

00:11 26 Oct

"Like that time when you banged your head and bled everywhere?" Kathy reminded me. "You WHAT?! He what?" Mike demanded, first of me and then of Kathy.

I'm surprised that Mike's so shocked, since he was present (and Kathy wasn't) for a later episode that meets that description: the one outside the Gay Cafe with Kelly.

- Amanda was uncomfortable at her first party with Val last year, but has no problem with Kelly. Draw conclusions at your own risk...

Eric
Re: Tuck 120 [message #4771] Mon, 11 September 2006 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Eric wrote on Mon, 11 September 2006 08:19


00:11 26 Oct

"Like that time when you banged your head and bled everywhere?" Kathy reminded me. "You WHAT?! He what?" Mike demanded, first of me and then of Kathy.

I'm surprised that Mike's so shocked, since he was present (and Kathy wasn't) for a later episode that meets that description: the one outside the Gay Cafe with Kelly.


Once, and one time only:
The characters in Tuck are the best representations of humans I (author) can manage. Humans don't remember everything, they're not necessarily accurate about the parts they do remember, and each one has a different set of experiences from a different perspective. And, unlike us (author and readers), they can't go back and re-read records of what happened, unless someone went to the extra trouble of writing them down (like certain reports).
If I (author) wanted to have an "objective" recording of what was happening like videotape, I'd be writing from a different Point-Of-View, like Third Person Omniscient. Since I (author) am not writing in this POV (and in Tuck, I have not except by uncorrected writing error), you can take it that I don't want 3rd-Omniscient.
The Tuck POV episodes are from the perspective of ONE individual, and despite the past tense they are what that one individual observes thinks and understands at the time (otherwise it'd be icky to write and I wouldn't do it). Have you ever been mistaken about what you were SURE was happening in some instance? Then the same thing COULD happen to Tuck...
In this particular case, I can offer two explanations, either or both or neither of which might be "true". One: Mike doesn't remember any head-bleeding incidents during the ~15 seconds remaining in that time segment. Kathy definitely wasn't around for the one at the cafe, and Mike wasn't at the particular sleepover. He might remember them shortly after the cutoff - or, never. Two: Mike does remember those two, but thinks (possibly momentarily) Kathy may be referring to a third one he doesn't know about.


Ellen
nosig
Re: Tuck 120 [message #4772] Mon, 11 September 2006 15:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Eric wrote on Mon, 11 September 2006 00:19

If the kitchen is indeed under inventory control via barcode, I wonder how item usage is handled. Does the cook have to use the scanner again when something gets cooked or consumed? Seems to me that using the same automatic device for pluses and minuses would get things hopelessly confused in no time, but otherwise, you have someone sitting down and doing data entry at a keyboard after every meal.
Eric


One of the things I enjoy about Tuck are the odd day to day minutia that Ellen tosses in these chapters. I was tempted to comment yesterday but at the time decided to leave this one alone because it opens the issue of how anal Bill is with regards to money - apparently very...
Bill's use of inventory control could really be just an account managing device as opposed to wanting to understand the increment/decrement of specific items in the database. However, this also implies that as they scan the items in, they would have to add the cost per item as well. This would allow Bill to analyze how much they spent on peas for the month, etc., and not really counting the individual items as they are consumed. You assume consumption upon purchase of new items...
In 1997, I don't recall if vegetables have those number stickers we now see in the supermarket for the clerks to type in for weighing. Therefore, one would have to manually type in these items for adding them into the database. Decrement could easily be a pull-down menu on a terminal in the kitchen of what's in the Fridge to toggle it's use. But I still find this time consuming enough for the household to rebel at the thought. OTOH, Tuck has corresponded with Bill regarding house recipes while Tuck was cooking for the Parker's, so it would be entirely plausible that whoever was cooking that night in the Tucker household would type in the evening's menu, obtain the necessary recipes, and the system would automatically decrement the appropriate items used for dinner. Since technology is supposed to make things easier, there's a point of diminishing returns here.
I would have thought the simplest way to inventory the items would be to scan the receipt with an OCR reader and you wouldn't have to deal with the vegetable/fruit items described above, as well as get the added benefit of the cost of goods without having to add any manual entry. But, we're discussing Bill here, a man who hangs on to teletypes....
What would be interesting to see is if the items in the weapons locker are inventory controlled as well (especially the ammo Smile )
----
change of subject...
It looks like Ellen used this chapter to settle the nightgown issue discussed in these threads with Sabrina... Smile


[Updated on: Mon, 11 September 2006 15:51]

Re: Tuck 120 [message #4773] Mon, 11 September 2006 22:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Ellen, I apologize for upsetting/annoying you.

In this particular case, I wasn't trying to expose Mike's reaction as a continuity error. It's just that it struck me as an overreaction, given all the physical trauma that Tuck has been through, most of which Mike has known about or been working to alleviate.

Eric
Re: Tuck 120 [message #4774] Tue, 12 September 2006 04:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Eric wrote on Tue, 12 September 2006 03:33

Ellen, I apologize for upsetting/annoying you.


*sniffs several times, looking very sad*
Actually, you just edged me over the reply threshold. Seems that a lot of people make that "mistake"...

Eric wrote on Tue, 12 September 2006 03:33

In this particular case, I wasn't trying to expose Mike's reaction as a continuity error. It's just that it struck me as an overreaction, given all the physical trauma that Tuck has been through, most of which Mike has known about or been working to alleviate.


Parents as well as others have been known to get a bit... erm, hypersensitive at such times.


Ellen
nosig
icon5.gif  Re: Tuck 120 [message #4775] Tue, 12 September 2006 06:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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Temporarily ignoring issues about her sexuality, does the fact that Kelly is at this particular sleepover an indication that she is being treated as an equal with the other girls. At the last sleepover it was made clear to everyone that Kelly knew about Tucks biology and Valerie, but that she wasn't cleared to know about Travis yet. So since when has been OK to mention his name, let alone say things like "You broke up with Travis" with Kelly present? Or did everyone decide beforehand that there were going to be no secrets that night? I mean besides mentioning Travis, several of the girls learned that there is more to Debbie and Lisa than a business relationship.
What Kelly Knew and When She Knew It [message #4783] Wed, 13 September 2006 17:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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It's more likely than not that Kelly learned about it the night before. The one sentence we get from the relevant (22:09 24 Oct) conversation -- "I know what they were doing! I saw it in her face!" almost (but not quite) had to be preceded by some reference to "HIS house/door/friend/whatever", even if Travis wasn't mentioned by name.

If so, Kelly had about ten minutes to ask Kathy or someone for a clarification, and unlike Mike (who was shadowing Val and therefore unable to prevent it), I think any of the Pack would have provided her with at least the detail that yes, Valerie had a serious boyfriend.

That would be one possible explanation as to why Kelly didn't react when it came up the following night. On the other hand, it would have been difficult at that time and place for Kelly to interrupt and ask about it, given that (from her perspective at least) she'd just been officially accepted into the group, and Tuck/Val was refusing to permit discussion on the point.

As to whether Kelly's now accepted as an equal by the group, it's probably pretty close. She's still two years younger, relatively naive and (at least until this sleepover ends) not nearly as bonded with the group as most of the others. (Julia has her own circle of friends, but this isn't her first sleepover with this group.) I'm not sure how many of their past secrets they're ready to tell Kelly, other than (as we saw) certain items relevant to sexuality and therefore to Kelly's situation. (And it's not as though everyone there is as ready as Kathy to talk about it.) And Kim remains something of a wild card, having missed both last night's outing and tonight's sleepover.

Eric
Re: Tuck 120 [message #4786] Fri, 15 September 2006 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Josea  is currently offline Josea
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Eric wrote on Mon, 11 September 2006 00:19

A few notes:

- At 20:06, another reference by Tuck to "the other girls" at a point where he's engaged in a primarily-Tuck activity (in his room, taking his medication, with Mike and Jill at the door).

...

Eric

I think he meant "the other girls who are coming over" and was not including himself.

-Josea
Re: Tuck 120 [message #4787] Mon, 18 September 2006 20:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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I've been wondering and been unable to locate within the Tuck tomes whether or not Bill has ever shown anger to the kids. The closest we get of Bill are of authoritative dispassionate punishments he metes out to the kids (fines, movement restrictions, etc.) but no anger by Bill. Only when he was in the military was some anger ever indicated to have occurred, but this was volunteered by Bill in a story about himself. None was observed of Bill by any other character in the series. Is Bill really stoic? Or does it just seem that way to Tuck? All other family members have had some form of negative emotion illustrated....
Re: Tuck 120 [message #4788] Tue, 19 September 2006 00:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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The ambiguity is perfectly Ellen. Smile

- Erin
Re: Tuck 120 [message #4789] Tue, 19 September 2006 05:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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lurker wrote on Mon, 18 September 2006 17:25

I've been wondering and been unable to locate within the Tuck tomes whether or not Bill has ever shown anger to the kids. The closest we get of Bill are of authoritative dispassionate punishments he metes out to the kids (fines, movement restrictions, etc.) but no anger by Bill. Only when he was in the military was some anger ever indicated to have occurred, but this was volunteered by Bill in a story about himself. None was observed of Bill by any other character in the series. Is Bill really stoic? Or does it just seem that way to Tuck? All other family members have had some form of negative emotion illustrated....

FWIW, we've seen, in a section from Debbie's POV, that until she encountered Sarah recently, she'd assumed that Tuck's father rather than his mother was the angry one in the family. A few possibilities:
1. Debbie was extrapolating from Tuck's grounding in January, assuming that Bill had punished Tuck out of anger;
2. Bill did something explosive in Debbie's presence prior to the start of the story;
3. Sometime during the story period but before the October assault on Tuck, something happened between Debbie and Bill when Tuck wasn't present, so the story didn't cover it.
4. As you suggest, Bill isn't necessarily as calm around his children as Tuck perceives him to be in his internal monologue.

I'm not sure whether the first is sufficient, but I'm inclined to doubt the other three.

As for the reason that Bill stays cool, he has his own sense of perspective on these things, reflecting both his past military experience and his survivalist mindset: When you're standing by, waiting for either revolution or repression to hit, you're best off not getting angry at mere personal or family matters.

Eric
Re: Tuck 120 [message #5046] Tue, 20 February 2007 13:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Man, I don't know how I missed THIS before, but:

Kathy said, during the sleepover, at 22:21 25 Oct

"'Cause, I didn't find doing her anything other than intellectually interesting, and when she was doing me I noticed about halfway through that I was fantasizing about M- some guy I knew doing it instead of her." Kathy was unusually dark pink at the moment, and I wished I had a camera so I could immortalize one of the rare times Kathy Got Embarrassed.


I mean, Kathy lets half-slip the name of a guy she was fantasizing about, and then attempts to cover it. A name beginning with "M." In a sleepover with Mike present. And then she gets SERIOUSLY embarrassed.

Am I reading too much in it?

Sir Lee

[Updated on: Tue, 20 February 2007 13:12]


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Tuck 120 [message #5049] Tue, 20 February 2007 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morgan  is currently offline Morgan
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Tho there was nothing concrete, I had the feeling that the story
wasn't recent, i. e. it was before the Pack & Da Boyz became
friends. Also I thought Kathy was embarressed that she was
admitting to fantasizing about ANY male and that she was about
to mention his name. Remember, in the conversation in her car,
she said she didn't talk about people she said no to, and I
assumed she didn't give names out to non-Pack or guys.

Morgan
__________________
This night, We'll pass the business privately and well.
- The Taming of the Shrew (Act iv, scene 4)
Kathy and Mike [message #5050] Wed, 21 February 2007 08:04 Go to previous message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Sir Lee wrote on Tue, 20 February 2007 10:11

Kathy lets half-slip the name of a guy she was fantasizing about, and then attempts to cover it. A name beginning with "M." In a sleepover with Mike present. And then she gets SERIOUSLY embarrassed.

Am I reading too much in it?

Probably. If Kathy had been interested in Mike before Kim grabbed him she'd have let him know, subtly or otherwise.

(OK, depends on the timing: if Kathy had someone of her own while Mike was dating Tina, the opportunity might not have been there. And Debbie might well be manipulative enough to have seen the advantage of getting the more controllable Kim together with Mike before force-of-nature Kathy could grab him, since Mike figured to be the only potential obstacle to Debbie's complete control of Tuck/Val.)

But while Kathy'd presumably not try to steal Mike from someone (Kim) in her own group, she certainly has no reason to back off from Valerie F. now, and the aerobics class would afford her a real opportunity.

Still, as I was trying to fall asleep tonight this suddenly came to mind from Mike and the Pack's previous sleepover:
03:19 14 Sep

"Kelly, me, Mike, and whoever dares sleep next to Mike," I decided, pointing at one bed.
"I'll do it," Kathy offered after several seconds. "Mike-"
"I know!" he complained.
She looked at him for a bit, then nodded. "Okay."
Mike thought about something for a while, then said, "Uh, Kathy?
If I get, like, an erection? Don't beat the shit out of me, okay? It's not voluntary."
"As long as you don't go poking that thing where it hasn't been invited," she replied.

Mike COULD have misinterpreted Kathy's "Mike-", but it hardly seems likely, given that particular time and place (and Kim being present).

And Mike and Kathy are probably together again this time, though they're not in Tuck's bed:
01:58 26 Oct

"So, what was that about the lesbian orgy?" Mike asked out loud. Kathy just reached over with one arm and whacked him...

So I can't rate it impossible -- just unlikely.

Eric
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