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Tuck 126 [message #5078] Sat, 10 March 2007 15:29 Go to next message
karen_page  is currently offline karen_page
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A rather interesting continuation. Jill's reaction makes sense in one respect, but rather intriguing in another.

Jill only wants a boyfriend, and seeing Eugene dressed as Val was hard for her. She doesn't want to be a lesbian, or is it that she doesn't want to be seen as a lesbian. Quite a distinction.

Dad wants a label, either gay or straight. He doesn't seem to have thought of bi-sexual as a good enough label. Forcing Tuck to be one of the other could be hard.

Lastly, at the dance, Tuck was seen as Val. I'm not sure if Tuck noticed, but didn't seem to react.

I think I'll have more food and then re-read to see the rest I missed in the first read through.

Re: Tuck 126 [message #5079] Sat, 10 March 2007 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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karen_page wrote on Sat, 10 March 2007 20:29

A rather interesting continuation. Jill's reaction makes sense in one respect, but rather intriguing in another.

Jill only wants a boyfriend, and seeing Eugene dressed as Val was hard for her. She doesn't want to be a lesbian, or is it that she doesn't want to be seen as a lesbian. Quite a distinction.


I thought Jill might have reacted badly to:

03:14 2 Nov


"What? No, sweetie..." I could hardly believe I was doing this. "I need to sleep, and as late as possible tomorrow... I am not up for ANYTHING, for..." I shook my head.
"Not even breakfast tomorrow?" Jill asked, looking sad.
I shook my head. The idea of having to get up in six hours was just horrible.



Which could IMHO quite easily have been seen as a dismissive brush-off from a boyfriend who's only interested in sex, and isn't interested in sex right now.

That Jill probably just wanted to stay with Tuck that night - especially rather than go home.

[Updated on: Sat, 10 March 2007 17:02]


Rachel
Re: Tuck 126 [message #5080] Sat, 10 March 2007 21:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Interesting continuation, and so much for my expectation that the dance was going to have a significant impact on the plot, or at least on Debbie.

Meanwhile:

Makes sense that most or all the strangers figured that their costumed DJ was female.

But Jill feeling that same way about Tuck in normal clothes startled me a lot. (I doubt that many people missed it, but there was Jill's dismissal of Val when she left Tuck's car on Saturday, when Tuck had been in male mode all morning, and then her reaction when Tuck felt he needed to stop at Rachel's for Valerie clothes to go out for breakfast Sunday morning, something that Jill recognized as superfluous.)

As previous comments suggested, it leaves the question open (to me at least) as to whether Jill wants to compartmentalize her relationship by making it clear to herself and (eventually) everyone that she's sexually involved with Tuck and not Valerie, or whether she's so bothered by the way things turned out Saturday night/Sunday morning that she's trying to make amends with Kim to avoid having Tuck take her to school next week.

While I preferred the first alternative, it struck me as strange. Jill's general straightforward way of thinking and reacting would seem to make it unlikely that she'd try to separate Val and Tuck in her mind. That seems especially true since the clothes-at-Rachel's incident makes it pretty clear that Jill finds Tuck's efforts to separate the two personas to be futile and pointless.

One thought is that Jill's hetero self-image and her negative feelings about femininity made her want Tuck and not Valerie, and that Sunday morning might have crystalized the point in her mind that getting one or the other wasn't going to happen, and sent her on to Plan B with Kim.

Ellen may give us some indication at dinner, or tomorrow at school -- two situations where Jill has to relate to him as Tuck.

Eric

[Not that it matters, but has Bill wired Tuck's room again or was Tuck right in speculating that his sonic repression system wouldn't work on Jill's frequency?]

[Updated on: Sat, 10 March 2007 22:00]

One More... [message #5081] Sat, 10 March 2007 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Subtle line in the nightmare -- the Pack are all pulling off masks and turning into his male enemies -- EXCEPT Debbie. Of course, that could just mean that to Tuck's subconscious mind, there's nothing scarier that Debbie could morph into...

Eric

[Updated on: Sat, 10 March 2007 22:43]

Re: Tuck 126 [message #5082] Sun, 11 March 2007 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Josea  is currently offline Josea
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Quote:

I sighed. "But then I, she wanted to see me as Valerie next week. Which means I am going to have to get up even earlier..." *Bitch.* I mean, I could sort of see her point, but it wasn't her that had this interesting life. I wasn't sure she had a life.


Sheila will finally meet Valerie. Unless Tuck finds a way out of it.

-Josea
Re: Tuck 126 [message #5083] Sun, 11 March 2007 15:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Josea wrote on Sun, 11 March 2007 08:39

Sheila will finally meet Valerie. Unless Tuck finds a way out of it.
-Josea


Which Valerie will it be?

Breakfast morning (Gay Cafe) Val?
Babysitting Val?
Survivalist (camp kit) Val?
Business (ala last June LA convention) Val?
Waif looking (runaway Tuck) Val?
Party time Val?
Sleepover Val?
Out on a date Val?

Or, she can convince Sheila she's dealing well with the trauma by going in a cheerleader outfit!... Nah, I don't think so, but it would be too cute. Smile

Unfortunately, we can't add any of the fanfic Vals, but who says Tuck doesn't have the imagination to show up in a Laura Ashley outfit he might borrow from Sabrina? (I somehow think that Sabrina might have at least one in her closet...)

Did I miss any other Vals? The fact that Tuck has to get up extra early to change into Val might mean he's planning something to convince Sheila he can do it well. Somehow I thought that Tuck wouldn't go to Sheila as Val for fear of being locked up, as he explained the night he was caught by Sarah at the Mall. But I guess Tuck is convinced Sheila can now be trusted to actually see him en femme. Which leads to the point of how "outed" he thinks he is to the world, because Kelly was asking for his help on the GLEE thing this chapter. Is Tuck considered "outed" at McAllen, in spite of his own perception? Or is there still a large consideration of doubt?


[Updated on: Sun, 11 March 2007 15:24]

Re: Tuck 126 [message #5084] Sun, 11 March 2007 15:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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lurker wrote on Sun, 11 March 2007 11:13

Did I miss any other Vals? The fact that Tuck has to get up extra early to change into Val might mean he's planning something to convince Sheila he can do it well. Somehow I thought that Tuck wouldn't go to Sheila as Val for fear of being locked up, as he explained the night he was caught by Sarah at the Mall. But I guess Tuck is convinced Sheila can now be trusted to actually see him en femme. Which leads to the point of how "outed" he thinks he is to the world, because Kelly was asking for his help on the GLEE thing this chapter. Is Tuck considered "outed" at McAllen, in spite of his own perception? Or is there still a large consideration of doubt?



Well, I think the extra time is due to needing to go to Rachel's and change.

It hasn't occurred to Tuck yet that he can change *at home* and save a lot of time.

Keeping stuff at Rachel's as a hedge against situations where it's not wise to have Val seen at the Tucker house.

Mind you, I can see Tuck being hesitant about being Val around home, but it'd simply his life a lot if he accepts it as an option.
Re: Tuck 126 [message #5085] Sun, 11 March 2007 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Maybe I'm making a bigger deal about Tuck's next visit to Sheila than necessary, but it has got my attention. It may be several chapters away, but I don't see immediate value in questioning Val on her feelings just yet, rather, Sheila might turn it into an excursion to a coffee shop nearby to see Val in action? I don't see any objections by Val since she came in publicly as such. This would certainly give Sheila a lot more data points before she asks Val about her feelings.

Sometimes I wonder if Sheila is meant as a minor character thrown in for annoyance to Tuck, with occasional insights. Or, at some point in the saga, she becomes a real contributing guide for Tuck and the family. She appears to have some care and empathy for Tuck by her attempts to visit (and able to get at least one in) Tuck at the hospital. At least she now understands why Tuck feels threatened all the time. Just trying to peg her better in this saga...

-----------------
``May I ask to what these questions tend?''
``Merely to the illustration of _your_ character,'' said she, endeavouring to shake off her gravity. ``I am trying to make it out.''
- Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice

[Updated on: Sun, 11 March 2007 16:10]

Re: Tuck 126 [message #5086] Sun, 11 March 2007 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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As to "which Val", my guess is the babysitting version -- casual, long skirts, flats: domestic rather than provocative or pushy. Seems to me that this might be somewhat parallel to the summer-job situation with the Parkers -- Valerie would want to look reassuring, wholesome and unthreatening to an adult who has potential power over her. (It's also, presumably, more comfortable for her to wear than a lot of the alternatives.)

I'm guessing that Sheila's going to be expecting more of an artificial, role-playing situation than Val will deliver -- probably something like Val's "channeling" of Sabrina in Mike's car that first time with Da Boyz. Assuming Sheila is convinced of Val's genuineness and decides that Tuck seems perfectly natural as Valerie, I wonder if she'll conclude that Tuck is drawing an unnecessary distinction between the two personas. If that's the case or even if not, would she counter the doctors' recommendation of androgen supplements?

Eric

[Updated on: Sun, 11 March 2007 19:55]

Re: Tuck 126 [message #5087] Mon, 12 March 2007 03:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Eric wrote on Sun, 11 March 2007 15:53

As to "which Val", my guess is the babysitting version -- casual, long skirts, flats: domestic rather than provocative or pushy.
I'm guessing that Sheila's going to be expecting more of an artificial, role-playing situation than Val will deliver -- Eric

Hmmm....

Sometime next Friday evening in the Parker's kitchen...

"Um, Miz Parker? Ricky says you were taking him for a haircut tomorrow morning so he'd be ready for an afternoon wedding?" I held my breath. *Steady, let her nibble a bit...*

"Yes Valerie, it's going to be a hectic day tomorrow. Mr. Parker's cousin is remarrying and they thought it would be nice if the children were there ..." sighed Mrs. Parker.

"Well, uh, ....I wouldn't mind taking care of Stella in morning, so you can deal with Ricky... if it'd help that is, ...and I can bring her back by noon so you can get Stella ready in time." I offered with a tentative voice. *Hold that line a little longer...*

"Well, if you really wouldn't mind?" said a relieved Miz Parker. "I'll even pay you."

"Oh, that's n-...*oops*, um... OK, I'll come by around nine o'clock and bring her back about noon, all right?" I said cheerfully. *Hah! Hooked and Reeled!*

Later, Saturday morning...

"AHHHHHHHHHHH-" Stella shrieked.

"Eugene, why did you bring a baby here?" said a somewhat annoyed Sheila.

"Well, you said you wanted to see Valerie! And Valerie babysits Stella." I said, cooing Stella, rocking her in the sling, trying to calm her down. Apparently, everytime Stella looks at Sheila, she starts up. *Heh* It was almost as if she was coached. Thirty minutes down, thirty to go. Sheila is sitting in her chair, impatiently tapping her notepad. I noticed a foul odor and I looked at Sheila. *I must be a genius with this baby, or damned lucky*

"Why don't you use the restroom down the hall?" sighed Sheila. "And Eugene, you're going to have to talk about Val sometime..."

"Remember Stella, omerta!" I whispered to Stella, carrying her down the hall...

"No!" blurted Stella, oblivious to it all...
Re: Tuck 126 [message #5088] Mon, 12 March 2007 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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From 126, 12:42 1 Nov

"Dad, I don't know, okay? She... I liked it, and it was fun, but we haven't pledged anything or anything... Hell, I don't even know if she wants to admit it happened." That was entirely possible, now that I thought about it. "Maybe she was just lonely or something..."

I wonder if this explains the distance that Tuck thinks might exist with Jill? Or it's just possible that Tuck was an experiment for Jill? I guess the big question is, who did Jill think her relationship is with? Val or Tuck? I don't think it's really clear yet...

[Updated on: Mon, 12 March 2007 12:49]

Re: Tuck 126 [message #5089] Mon, 12 March 2007 17:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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It's certainly possible -- maybe even likely, after another reading of the chapter -- that Jill and Tuck are both convinced that the other doesn't want to pursue the relationship.

But I wouldn't take any stock in the theory that Tuck presented to Bill there, despite or even because of Tuck's "that was entirely possible, now that I thought about it." It doesn't seem to explain Jill's behavior on Saturday morning or evening/night, and Tuck appears to bring it up speciously here and then try to convince himself that it could be true, in his attempt to simplify matters in his own mind as to his sexual orientation.

We should know more after the next chapter. (Especially if Kim shows up and we find out why she invited herself over, assuming it wasn't just to monitor Mike and Valerie F.)

Eric
Re: Tuck 126 [message #5091] Wed, 14 March 2007 02:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erik  is currently offline Erik
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Still no sign of Travis. Travis doesn't know that Valerie is breaking up with him. He probably feels abondoned, or very worried. His lover has dropped off the face of the earth and isn't answering pages.

Imagine that the girl that Valerie ran into at Travis's apartment is actually the girlfriend of one of Travis's brothers. Travis uses the apartment for sexual liasons. Travis pretty much inheireted the apartment from his older brothers. Does this mean that other family members might use the apartment for the same reasons when they are back from college?

I keep thinking that Travis is innocent.

I see an emotional train wreck comming in the near future when Travis confronts Tuck.

Erik


You are not paranoid. We really are out to get you.
Re: Tuck 126 [message #5092] Wed, 14 March 2007 20:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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Erik wrote on Tue, 13 March 2007 22:37

Still no sign of Travis. Travis doesn't know that Valerie is breaking up with him.
I keep thinking that Travis is innocent.
Erik

I think it goes both ways here. Assuming Travis really doesn't know where he stands with Valerie, he could have inquired about Valerie at the Parkers. They haven't spoken to each other since Oct 2, and later on Oct 6, Mike reveals that Travis wasn't aware that Valerie lived as Tuck - Travis thought that Valerie was a full time persona and wanted a few days to think. Later, Lisa reveals Travis was inquiring after Valerie - but after being stonewalled by everyone, we might assumed that Travis gave up. Then on Oct 23, Tuck goes to Travis' place and sees "Ann" - so Tuck now thinks Travis has given up on the relationship. Which goes back to the point above, Travis could have gone to the Parkers to inquire about Val but he didn't. So I would guess he moved on....

I think this is one of those breakups where both parties sort of stepped away to avoid confrontation. It doesn't mean they can't get back together again but I think one can consider the relationship now dormant if not entirely dead.

[Updated on: Wed, 14 March 2007 20:54]

Re: Tuck 126 [message #5093] Wed, 14 March 2007 21:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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An interesting development would be if Jill (or maybe even Kim) and Tuck become a couple and they go out dancing. They run into Travis and his new girlfriend. What would be Travis' reaction when he sees Val in Tuck mode?
Re: Tuck 126 [message #5098] Fri, 16 March 2007 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Leesya  is currently offline Leesya
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lurker wrote on Wed, 14 March 2007 20:01

An interesting development would be if Jill (or maybe even Kim) and Tuck become a couple and they go out dancing. They run into Travis and his new girlfriend. What would be Travis' reaction when he sees Val in Tuck mode?



Would he see Eugene? I don't think so, since strangers saw Val even when Tuck was wearing the suit that evening with Julia (Episode 32). Travis thinks of Val, so I'd bet that he'd see his ex(?)-girlfriend in butch mode and not a boy.


MOFWIW
Re: Tuck 126 [message #5114] Fri, 23 March 2007 04:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Erik wrote on Tue, 13 March 2007 22:37

Imagine that the girl that Valerie ran into at Travis's apartment is actually the girlfriend of one of Travis's brothers. Travis uses the apartment for sexual liasons. Travis pretty much inherited the apartment from his older brothers. Does this mean that other family members might use the apartment for the same reasons when they are back from college?

It's not as though Travis or his brothers ever used the place only or primarily for sexual liasons. From what we've been told, they essentially lived there, except for (some) meals. Certainly the current furnishing there -- one bedroom with one bed -- wouldn't encourage a Jensen brother to return there while Travis was home. (Presumably back when an older brother had the bed and Travis was sleeping in the apartment living room -- hopefully the couch there converts to a bed -- he hadn't reached his present height.)

And I have trouble imagining that Anne, whom we've met at two parties, has been in a longstanding significant relationship with a brother of Travis who's at least two years older than she is and very likely living and going to college out of town. (If it's not a longstanding relationship, there's the question of how the two of them connected after the brother graduated from Red Bluff. Through Travis, I suppose, but then his not introducing her to Val that way seems puzzling.)

Travis allowing friends of his to use the place in his absence (or arranging to be absent so that friends can use his place) seems more likely, if there does turn out to be an innocent explanation for Anne's presence. (But I still think Anne's nonverbal answer to Val's inquiry tells us that Travis was there, paralleling as it does Val's answer to Anne back when the relationship was ongoing.)

Eric

(Typed "McAllen" instead of "Red Bluff" originally)

[Updated on: Thu, 12 April 2007 06:00]

Re: Tuck 126 [message #5130] Thu, 12 April 2007 05:51 Go to previous message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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lurker wrote on Mon, 12 March 2007 08:43

I guess the big question is, who did Jill think her relationship is with? Val or Tuck? I don't think it's really clear yet...

Rereading the sex scene again (which starts in 125), I wondered if Jill misinterpreted Tuck's question -- "So am I gay, or not?" -- to mean, in effect, "Am I Valerie (i.e., gay) or Tuck (straight) in this relationship with you?"

I don't believe there's any question that at the time Tuck raised the question, on a physical level Jill was relating to a male Tuck, and Tuck was responding accordingly. But Jill may have seemed less sure of that answer after (misinterpreting) Tuck's question, and a lot of what happened in bed the following morning may have left the question open to further doubt in Jill's mind.

(Admittedly, that theory supposes that Jill accepts "gay" as a synonym for "lesbian" in that context. I think that was the case when I was growing up, but I'm not sure people Tuck and Jill's age would have encountered that usage.)

Eric

[Updated on: Thu, 12 April 2007 05:56]

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