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Future Tuck - generally [message #616] Sun, 24 November 2002 02:32 Go to next message
Sonya  is currently offline Sonya
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Hi all,

I'm starting this so I don't have to wade through all the thread titles to find somewhere to post general thoughts. And I'm doing it now that the technical problems have been solved for us - congrats to all who worked so hard!

And I have a few general thoughts.

A) Ellen has repeatedly promised, warned, told us that this ain't no fairy-tale so I'm kinda surprised that nearly everyone seems to think this is going to continue (end?) happily, or at least 'easily'.

B) Tuck ran away when he first got to hear about what's wrong with him, to both think about it and to look it up in the library he knew about at his sister's. I refuse to believe that he did not tell his sister something along the lines, and I refuse to believe that his parents were kept completely out of the picture. The almost too easy acceptance by the 'rents of events since then make me suspect that they are giving him room to come to terms with it, which means they know about it, which means they've done their own research.

C) Some of the Pack know what Da Boyz are capable of (revenge to that girl's screen, TV coverage of prank, etc. etc.) which surely means that all the Pack know. Could the Mike tripping persuade them all (Pack and Da B)that this was an attck on them all and could this lead to a joint effort which could be quite awesome as the two groups pool resources? Maybe so mega that the word gets round school not to mess with them. So Valerie could be safe at her existing school. Maybe ...... ????

D) Ellen has set the scene for Mike to suffer flashbacks or whatever. Imagine him freaking out whilst being Gamemaster! And imagine him doing that when Dobson's there!

E) Valerie and Travis make love. He sticks his in her. I have seen nothing to suppose that the lights are always off, so Travis MUST be aware of Val's physical aspects, even if only to line up for insertion. I must say that I'm confused by the supposition that Travis might think she could have children or rather would want to bear her own children.

Ok that's enough to be going on with - it's Sunday and it's time for the chores round the house.

Hope this new thread is helpful to keep topics together rather than appear under inappropriate headings.

Keep well, all.

LOL

Sonya
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #617] Sun, 24 November 2002 21:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bernard  is currently offline Bernard
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Most of us probably agree with your analysis. Ellen has tried to make this story as close to real life as possible and has succeeded to some large extent. And this is why we tend to react so strongly to the storie's content. This said, real life is not very nice and tends to bite back fairly regularly. Tuck/Valerie leads a VERY complicated life (more than mine anyway, but this IS a story after all). But in most people's life, that's more often than not a recipy for trouble, translating in too may threads to hold. In that sense, the last few episodes make me rather nervous. Things are too slow moving, and Ellen is setting up something rather dramatic. Mike's recent problems is just a hint. The upcoming medical meeting (Thursday after next, and September 11 1997 is a Thursday) is certainly a turning point but that is still nearly two weeks away in Tuck time, which translates to at least two chapters. On the other hand, it is Ellen's story and only hers (and I hope one of the good things in her life at this point, and she'll let Tuck and/or Valerie live and prosper some more). Maybe so. And maybe not. This is not a comedy, nice endings are not really required.

Re: Future Tuck - possibilities [message #618] Mon, 25 November 2002 15:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
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Bored well anything is possible, anything. . from love to hate, betrayal to never ending friendship, sacrifice to self serving. . that is the fun of reading this story. Exclamation


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Future Tuck - possibilities [message #619] Mon, 25 November 2002 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maynard  is currently offline Maynard
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I am wondering if as in real life there might not be a lot of pressure coming upon Tuck to conform to the male role that he is suppose to be. And I am thinking that this would be by the adult population. I suspect that Tuck would have a lot of peer support for what ever he/she decides to do.
My rambling thoughts.
Also, I think the big meeting is scheduled for Saturday after the test results are back, that is, during Tuck`s regular session with Shiela.
Re: Future Tuck - possibilities [message #630] Thu, 28 November 2002 19:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maynard  is currently offline Maynard
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Wondering if Tuck would appreciate the following-

Thanksgiving is where one species stops gobbling and another begins.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #633] Thu, 28 November 2002 21:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Upinmyhead  is currently offline Upinmyhead
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I don't know. I've never read Tuck and thought "Wow, he really wants to be a girl".

Maybe I'm missing something, but for me, Tuck's always been dressing up or whatever (at least since his breakup with Deb) because it's easier, not because he wants to do it. Like, with the Parkers. It's easier for him to pass as Valerie and babysit than it is to blow them off and get another job. Or Travis. It's easier to pass as Valerie and be seen as Travis' girlfriend, than to come out and be gay. (I always read Val's relationship with Travis as pseudo-straight.) I know they do gay sex and all, but the fact that when Tuck is with Travis, he's only ever Val is kind of like, Travis' "excuse" to be gay, because he's with a "girl", not a "boy". Even when Travis told Tuck he knew about him being male, he said "That you USED to be a guy", not "That you're a guy". Or referring to Tuck/Val as his girlfriend, which aesthetically is true, but not really. I can imagine that meeting Tuck would really throw him.

Anyway, I'm straying from my point. I've never been convinced that Tuck will just want to be a girl. He wouldn't have freaked out so bad when he first found out. Even now, he says his bio-chemistry is screwed up. If he preferred being a girl to a guy, I don't think he'd be so stressed about it, but I get the opinion that he wants to fix his body, if it's possible. I think he's really lucky that he's got a support system of friends. But I'm not convinced that he just wants to go girl.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #635] Fri, 29 November 2002 10:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maynard  is currently offline Maynard
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Upinmyhead wrote, But I'm not convinced that he just wants to go girl.

I agree. Tuck has more or less just slid into the role of Val. Remember the early discussions with Jack about why he was doing what he was doing. Tuck just went along with the gender explorer. Even when talking with Dobson at the Convention he did not have a real reason except to be with Debbie. And after the breakup it was a matter of convience. Tuck really has not seriously dealt with all the consequences of being a girl full time. Tuck lives from day to day, sometimes from project to project. He does not have long range plans except to go to college engineering major and copy his dad`s path.

I am hoping that somehow, Tuck can come to a point of telling Sheila about Val, how he is Travis` girlfriend, not his boyfriend. When Travis is with Val, isn`t Val on her back, so Travis can play with her breasts? And they have never taken a shower together, so maybe Travis hasn't looked that closely?
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #639] Mon, 02 December 2002 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lykofos
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Nevermind. I sooooo misread the post I was replying to.

No wonder my reply didn't make sense, even to me.

[Updated on: Tue, 03 December 2002 13:58]

Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #640] Tue, 03 December 2002 01:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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That would be on her back with her knees drawn up and hooked over Travis's shoulders. It's a position that is a test of flexibility for anyone, it had never occurred to any of the girls, apparently.

Also apparently all of them could do it, not unusual in young women without back or weight problems. But that Val could do it was what prompted the physical examination, it's a heck of a lot easier to do if your hips are jointed like a woman's rather than like a man's.

Val has girl hips, that's what was determined by the physical exam.

-- Erin
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #641] Tue, 03 December 2002 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maynard  is currently offline Maynard
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But Erin, what is Travis see? Does he just concentrate on Val as female?
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #642] Tue, 03 December 2002 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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I think he doesn't look or think about it much. Trav is in denial about what his relationship with Val is. He wants very much for Val to be all girl, his girl; and he allows himself to ignore evidence to the contrary. Ain't the first time someone in transition has had this sort of relationship.

Really, Trav may be the big strong jock, but Val is the leader in their relationship, socially. That part is not unusual at all, and Val does let Trav take a turn. I think, she would probably prefer that he led more often but Trav is sweet and considerate and doesn't want to push in a relationship where he has so much power, even if he isn't using it.

Also, unconsciously, tho this is sort of off the point, I think Trav is intensely proud of Val and would love to show her off. That's why he keeps forgetting the guys are coming over. LOL.

-- Erin
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #643] Thu, 05 December 2002 04:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nebula
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Tuck is hasn't stopped running away. Tuck lies to himself. He wouldn't and couldn't be Val, authentically, if he didn't deeply want to be Val - at least subconsciously. Societal and family expectations are powerful inhibitors. They create memes and mindsets that blinker self-honesty. Tuck has aspirations for his future. It looks like Tuck doesn't realize he can integrate Tuck and Val into a complete personna without sacrificing the future he wants.

The dialog I want to read is Val's first Saturday session with the shrink.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #644] Thu, 05 December 2002 05:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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nebula wrote on Thu, 05 December 2002 09:01

Tuck is hasn't stopped running away. Tuck lies to himself. He wouldn't and couldn't be Val, authentically, if he didn't deeply want to be Val - at least subconsciously. Societal and family expectations are powerful inhibitors. They create memes and mindsets that blinker self-honesty. Tuck has aspirations for his future. It looks like Tuck doesn't realize he can integrate Tuck and Val into a complete personna without sacrificing the future he wants.

The dialog I want to read is Val's first Saturday session with the shrink.


Yeah. Smile So does anyone think Sheila is going to be even a little bit surprised?


Rachel
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #645] Thu, 05 December 2002 06:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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nebula wrote on Thu, 05 December 2002 09:01

Tuck is hasn't stopped running away. Tuck lies to himself. He wouldn't and couldn't be Val, authentically, if he didn't deeply want to be Val - at least subconsciously. Societal and family expectations are powerful inhibitors. They create memes and mindsets that blinker self-honesty. Tuck has aspirations for his future. It looks like Tuck doesn't realize he can integrate Tuck and Val into a complete personna without sacrificing the future he wants.


Quite. Just recently finished reading Tucky Season SPOILERS BELOW, and it's well demonstrated there. Away from braking influences (like parents and school) and required to be in Valerie-mode on a full-time basis, what we see is that Valerie absorbs and integrates Tuck's "Eugene-ness", as it were, and so becomes a complete persona. Contrast with the main story, where precisely because Tuck divides time between being Valerie and Eugene, he can divide personality attributes between them too, so Valerie stays really quite Femme. Babysitter, girlfriend, sleepover-friend, breakfast-companion, mallrat... (Your basic "goddess in the kitchen, whore in the bedroom" type, if I was to be uncharitable Smile )

But in Tucky Season we get Valerie the consummate IT professional and cable-monkey (with added great song & dance routine), Valerie playing at urban-tactical (chasing down the girls with paintballs after they throw dirt at her window), Valerie DJing a dance party, Valerie hacking into the API newsfeed, Valerie singing a love song to her girlfriend... Not to mention the rollerblading, and oh that hair... Smile


Now, Tucky Season is more of a fantasy, a contrivance to push Tuck into full-time Valerie mode, where the main Tuck story is more rooted in the real (or at least the plausible) world, but still I think the point stands; that Tuck has been able to learn that being Valerie doesn't have to mean giving up on being Tuck, if you see what I mean. That's something that Tuck in the main story has yet to figure out.


Rachel
On Tucky Season [message #646] Thu, 05 December 2002 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Very interesting comments on Tucky Season.

- Erin
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #648] Thu, 05 December 2002 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nebula
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I agree, save for two reservations. First, so far Val seems to function as a compartmentalized personna - held separate from Tuck's by his fears. So far, he's too reliant on denial to integrate Val's experience. Second, including Tucky Season for the sake of discussion, there's more to integrating Tuck and Val than proving Val can function as an intergrated personna.

There are practical and emotional barriers. His peers who aren't among his friends, how would they react? Would his physical danger increase? Would it prejudice his future, spoiling his opportunities for a good life? How would he negotiate all the niggling practical problems? School? Identification? Et cetera.

Tuck has years of experience identifying as a boy. What's the emotional price of abandoning a male self-image and dreams for the future, as a man? Why would Tuck go to such lengths to hide Val from his parents if he wasn't afraid of their reation? Parents, other family, and who knows how many more, have an emotional investment in Tuck as a male, boy and young man. What are the risks of re-negotiating so many relationships?

To sum the price of a gender transition, add the fears as dollars and the practical problems as cents.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #649] Thu, 05 December 2002 17:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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nebula wrote on Thu, 05 December 2002 19:29

To sum the price of a gender transition, add the fears as dollars and the practical problems as cents.


Oh sure. That's what I meant by the "braking influences" I mentioned. Tucky Season removed Tuck from those influences.

OTOH as (insert probably-large proportion of fanbase that are TS) of us know, for the most part those fears are just fears; they can be overcome, and from the other side they don't seem so bad after all.

But Tuck is so terribly young, still, so there really shouldn't be too much hurry about it at this stage.

Reminds me - anyone else feeling the way this is already turning into a period piece? I mean, when Tuck started, Ellen was writing more or less in the same time period in which the story was set, but now we've run over five years ahead and a lot of big things have happened even in that time that 1997 now feels like the past.

Area for fun speculation... Where's Tuck/Valerie now, age 21 in December 2002? Smile


Rachel
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #650] Thu, 05 December 2002 20:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Shopping, of course. Smile It's Christmas season and the girl does like to shop.

- Erin
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #651] Thu, 05 December 2002 22:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nebula
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rachel.greenham wrote on Thu, 05 December 2002 14:30

OTOH as (insert probably-large proportion of fanbase that are TS) of us know, for the most part those fears are just fears; they can be overcome, and from the other side they don't seem so bad after all.



The smallest fear is an Everest, so long as you cower from it.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #652] Fri, 06 December 2002 03:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dark canuck  is currently offline dark canuck
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In tucky season, he's tied off from the world he knows, so he can let both sides of his persona form one being, resulting in a cool, confident valerie, for the most part. The real world, and people he knows, prevents that.

That being said, The fear that was talked about, hasn't Val overcome a lot of fear in the year that she's been dressing?? Granted, she's got a long way to go, but she's no longer afraid of the general idea of acting, looking, BEING female. I think the only thing separating Tuck from Val is the world that only Tuck knows (come to think of it, I guess that's kind of obvious...sorry, tired.) Were (original story line) tuck placed in a situation away from his past, like Aunt Janes, I think he would react in very much the same way.. Tucky seasons seems much less like fantasy (in tuck's world, I'm sure a lot of readers wouldn't mind all that much) than a "what if."
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #653] Fri, 06 December 2002 13:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nebula
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There are only a small number of classic plots and drama requires conflict. Isn't the heart of the dramatic tension the separation of Tuck and Valerie? I read the saga as a twist on the classic story of two destined lovers, divided by adversity until they can finally be joined in the story's denouement. Of course, for Tuck and Valerie, it would mean literally, rather than figuratively, becoming one.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #654] Fri, 06 December 2002 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yellow  is currently offline yellow
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Well, I may be sticking my neck out-here, but I don't think Tuck has two separate personas. Certainly, the way he presents himself affects others behaviour, however he's always seemed the same old Val/Tuck to me; I think he goes on dressing because he's learned to like the way other people respond to it, and the social possibilities it has opened up for him. I think Val is more liberated in "Seasons" because the chance of her confronting the negative social consequences of her actions is greatly diminished by the distance from home. Eugene's never really seemed to have a problem with his sex.

Thus, rather than a love story, to my mind Tuck's tale is the archetypical quest: like most teenagers he's trying to find out who he is, in a unique set of circumstances. Whether he finds his sexual identity a barrier to his social role in the future remains to be seen.

-Harry

Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #655] Fri, 06 December 2002 19:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nebula
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yellow wrote on Fri, 06 December 2002 12:57

Eugene's never really seemed to have a problem with his sex.



What do you mean by "his sex"? Sex is a complex idea. Sex may mean genitals, penis vs. vagina. Sex may mean procreation potential, to beget or bear children. Sex may mean role in intercourse, entering or receiving. Sex may mean social gender and/or societal role, man or woman? Tuck needn't express an open desire to be a woman to have problems with "his sex". Consider, as a start:

1) He's sterile (and has as yet unidentified intersex problems).
2) He's concluded he perfers men to women, as sexual partners.
3) The man he wants only wants Valerie - as a young woman.
4. He's developing breasts.
5. Physically, he's more attractive and credible as a woman.
6. He functions better in society as a young woman than as a young man.

Quote:


...Tuck's tale is the archetypical quest: like most teenagers he's trying to find out who he is, in a unique set of circumstances.



Mustn't a quest be a search for something? Can you search for something by running away and hiding from it? So far, Tuck has worked hard to avoid the truth, not find it.

[Updated on: Fri, 06 December 2002 21:57]

Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #656] Fri, 06 December 2002 21:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yellow  is currently offline yellow
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Quote:

What you mean by "his sex"?



In this case, just that he has no psychological problem with being physically male (even if he isn't) or being identified with as male.

Quote:

Mustn't a quest be a search for something?



Self-identity, is my assertion; I just don't see any evidence of a forgone conclusion to all this. To reiterate, sure he has trouble coming to terms with events in his life but isn't that the whole point of being a teenager? Wink

Personally, I'm more worried about Kim and Mike at the moment; their relationship seems to have been stuck in a holding pattern for some time now and any progress has been abortive. Still I've my fingers crossed that Mike's recent misadventure may serve as a catalyst of some kind!

-Harry
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #657] Fri, 06 December 2002 22:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nebula
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Quote:


In this case, just that he has no psychological problem with being physically male (even if he isn't) or being identified with as male.



Tuck hasn't voiced discontent, but that doesn't mean he won't. It's Ellen's story. Can anyone else predict where the story will lead? I can't, but I've known many transsexuals, including several with intersex conditions. Not all of them had "I've always been a girl" stories. Some of them didn't figure out what they wanted until later in life. Until they figured it out, they didn't have a problem with their sex, either.

Quote:

Self-identity, is my assertion;



Searching for self-identity might seem the point of being a teen, but I can't see how it's the point of the saga, so far. There are numerous examples of avoiding it, but how has Tuck actively tried to find a true self-identity? Have you a few examples?

[Updated on: Fri, 06 December 2002 22:51]

Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #658] Fri, 06 December 2002 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Maybe you have a different definition of the search for self-identity than I do but I can't think of more than a handful of episiodes that didn't have some element of that.

The whole saga seems to be a search for self-identity, and yes, Tuck runs from it when he gets close, just like a lot of real people do. It's like John Cleese said, "A man can run and run for year after year until he realizes that what he's running from...is hisself."

- Erin
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #659] Sat, 07 December 2002 02:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nebula
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The sticking point is intent. Tuck is making choices and having experiences that, from my point of view, ought to lead to self-discovery. BUT, self-discovery isn't really his motive, is it? Isn't it happening inspite of what he wants - to hide from it?

What I don't follow is why you and Harry believe Tuck is *trying* to find himself. If it's in the story arch, I've overlooked it. I'd like to read what you believe Tuck has intentionally done to discover who he is, rather than for some other reason.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #660] Sat, 07 December 2002 07:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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the whole tuck being an explorer started off with mike saying that tuck could just try things out for a while. he'd gain some kinda insight into how women think and then come back over to being a guy and just be swiming in girls. then he'd tell mike what he learned and he'd be swimming in girls too. and that much worked. he got book a girlfreind and was swimming in girls. just not the way mike envisioned.

the idea of tuck as an explorer was added to by jack when he was trying to define tuck and tuck didn't get care about the clothes so he wasn't CD or TV. tuck didn't actualy wantto BE a girl so he wasn't TS or GS. what mike said about just learning about things for a while was mentioned and so jack called him a gender explorer. tuck being IS or whatever doesn't really matter. tuck was always assuming that eventualy he'd go back to being just tuck and be a better man from his time spent as a girl. travis kinda changed that. but we'll see what tuck eventualy decided.

oh. and
Quote:

1) He's sterile (and has as yet unidentified intersex problems).
2) He's concluded he perfers men to women, as sexual partners.
3) The man he wants only wants Valerie - as a young woman.
4. He's developing breasts.
5. Physically, he's more attractive and credible as a woman.
6. He functions better in society as a young woman than as a young man.


is it actualy your argumant that everyone who grows breasts, is atracted to men, looks more like a girl than a guy, and gets along better with girls than with streight guys is really a girl in denial? if so i'm sure there are some gay men who would love to have a 'talk' with you about that. i know some FtMs that you should meet too.

all i'm saying is that you shouldn't use physical traits or sexual oriantation to decide what you think tuck's perfured gender/sex is. you wouldn't have liked people to do that with you. so, don't do it to tuck.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #661] Sat, 07 December 2002 08:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yellow  is currently offline yellow
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Quote:

Tuck is making choices and having experiences that, from my point of view, ought to lead to self-discovery



I agree and believe they are: For example, Eugene's accepted the fact that he's in a gay relationship. It's not something he'd have concieved of before the fact, but then it happened.

I don't think that the search for self-identity necessarily comes from constantly chasing new experiences. I believe it hinges on a deep understanding of our reaction to events whatever they are: Because Tuck fell into his relationship with Travis with all the facts up-front, he can be very honest emotionally. (Travis, of course, is another story altogether)

Conversely, Debbie is a huge emotional blindside and the thought of a confrontation with her nearly paralyses him with fear. Instead of addressing this he's built up a fantasy where Debbie is an "Ogre" and thus makes his fear justifiable. The true reason for his behaviour still isn't apparent to me; However I don't think it has anything to do with sex or gender, so I'm looking forward to more revelations.

Wink

-H

Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #663] Sat, 07 December 2002 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

Personally, I'm more worried about Kim and Mike at the moment; their relationship seems to have been stuck in a holding pattern for some time now and any progress has been abortive. Still I've my fingers crossed that Mike's recent misadventure may serve as a catalyst of some kind!


mike has always been a bit of a mystery. he kinda keeps to himself. the relationship with kim has been strained. but it's not anything mike has done or even can help.

i'm going to indulge in some HEAVY inductive reasoning here, but it's all in fun.

Mike was in Kim's room. Kim was drunk. Jill says Mike was in a bad mood. they didn't tell Tuck that Mike had been drugged, though they apeared to have known durring their talk with the jocks. whenever mike and kim start to make out, kim gets all tensed and freaks out.

so mabe this time kim tried getting drunk first. thinking that maybe that would help her relax and forget about her usualy problems. but she freaked out again. mike gets into a bad mood from being once again turned down by his own girlfreind. he heads out and proceds to try to drink himself out of his problems. but then the walls start melting and everyone turns into demons and mike hides and sneaks out of the house unnoticed.

OR maybe we could get paranoid and think... jill and kim knew that mike was drugged. but they didn't tell tuck becouse they didn't think he could deal with it, or some reason. maybe mike only got into a bad mood after he was drugged. but then why didn't jill tell tuck he was drugged. was she trying to and tuck slapped her? thats probably most likely. but whats the fun in that.

so, in the end what does it mean for mike. he may just have to break up with kim. a girl who can bearly stand to be touched by you isn't too much of a girlfreind. they have been working on it for the past three weeks atleast. though the problem goes back to april, 22 weeks, ago when they had to spend the night together. mike and kim have been dating for 26 weeks and she still has problems. it took no more than 13 weeks for tuck and deb to have sex, and 16 weeks till they had intercourse. tuck and travis had sex after only 3-4 weeks of really dating. mike is still a virgin. this is probably bugging him. ANOTHER reson that mike might not want to hear about tuck having sex. thought he might also have a small crush on val or something, though i don't think thats the major motivation even if it's true at all.

the best insight into mike's character is in all tucked up. but thats a fan fic so i don't know how much truth there is to his character therre.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #665] Sat, 07 December 2002 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Upinmyhead  is currently offline Upinmyhead
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Doragoon wrote on Sat, 07 December 2002 22:48

so, in the end what does it mean for mike. he may just have to break up with kim. a girl who can bearly stand to be touched by you isn't too much of a girlfreind. they have been working on it for the past three weeks atleast. though the problem goes back to april, 22 weeks, ago when they had to spend the night together. mike and kim have been dating for 26 weeks and she still has problems. it took no more than 13 weeks for tuck and deb to have sex, and 16 weeks till they had intercourse. tuck and travis had sex after only 3-4 weeks of really dating. mike is still a virgin. this is probably bugging him. ANOTHER reson that mike might not want to hear about tuck having sex. thought he might also have a small crush on val or something, though i don't think thats the major motivation even if it's true at all.


I doubt Mike has a crush on Val. He knows too much Very Happy Well, the way Mike sees Tuck to me is that his 'brother' is getting all dressed up as a girl, and is starting to fall into the role. Val being affectionate with Travis bothers him, though not enough to sacrifice his deep relationship with Tuck. But it does, and I'm sure he is worried at times by the fact that Tuck just... does it ("it" being the whole Val thing). He knows Tuck doesn't think it through as he should, and as a result he gets caught out and reacts accordingly.

On the Kim subject... boy, do I agree. Mike's a bit too chivalrous for his own good, sometimes. Kim has issues; the no-touching, the drinking, the shyness etc. And Mike's compassionate manner aside, he's getting the short end of the stick when it comes to a comfortable, stable relationship. I think he hangs on because he doesn't know any better. Kim's nice and all, but ultimately she needs to sort herself out. Mike's too chivalrous about it all (you know, the "I don't hate you, it's not your fault, I'm not worried, as long as you're comfortable"... all that). It's nice in moderation, but it's unhealthy in the long run, and it's been around six months. Of course, sex isn't everything, but it's not just sex that Kim can't deal with, and ultimately I don't think it's in Mike's best interests to dedicate his life to 'fixing' his girlfriend. It never works out, and I wouldn't doubt that in the end all that would change is Mike's confidence. It's a grinding feeling when you know your SO has issues that, for some reason or another, never get resolved.

Kim always has someone bigger, stronger or more assertive around to 'protect' her from anything she doesn't like. She doesn't really face things herself, and she has a support group of friends in the Pack that she can hide in. I think it's a hindrance to her dealing ability. She doesn't deal with problems.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #666] Sat, 07 December 2002 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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nebula wrote on Sat, 07 December 2002 02:15

The sticking point is intent. Tuck is making choices and having experiences that, from my point of view, ought to lead to self-discovery. BUT, self-discovery isn't really his motive, is it? Isn't it happening inspite of what he wants - to hide from it?


Why does intent matter? Conscious intent can't be the defining point, that's why I included the Monty Python quote. When you go on a voyage of self-discovery it may be that you THOUGHT you were going down to the corner for a six-pak of Dr. Pepper. The best self-explorations are serendipitous; intentionally trying to find oneself is a lot like trying to look up your own ass. Smile The first thing you have to do is discover you need a mirror.

nebula wrote on Sat, 07 December 2002 02:15

What I don't follow is why you and Harry believe Tuck is *trying* to find himself. If it's in the story arch, I've overlooked it. I'd like to read what you believe Tuck has intentionally done to discover who he is, rather than for some other reason.


I think the problem is your definition of trying, you seem to mean that the attempt has to be the sole focus and motivation or it doesn't count. When Tuck buys a cookbook, he's exploring his need to be appreciated for his talents; when Val shops for school clothes, she's exploring what makes her comfortable and projects the image she wants others to see. At Tuck's age, one cannot *not* be involved in self-discovery. IMO.

Tuck signs up for cosmetics courses and has all kinds of rationalizations for why this is a good idea but the important thing is the exploration of limits. Same for planning to spend all night at Travis's, sure the sex turns out to be good but Val couldn't have been sure it would, she doesn't have that level of experience yet.

- Erin
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #667] Sat, 07 December 2002 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

Kim always has someone bigger, stronger or more assertive around to 'protect' her from anything she doesn't like.


WOW!! thats a great insight. that would really explain why jil and kim get along so well. kim NEEDS jill. she needs jill to confront people. to help her hide. semi butch jill and her white blonde hair probably stand out more than the chubby little girl in the back. that would be something to look back in the rest of the story for. to see if you can see that relationship between the two of them.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #668] Sat, 07 December 2002 23:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nebula
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Doragoon wrote on Sat, 07 December 2002 04:42

the whole tuck being an explorer started off with mike saying that tuck could just try things out for a while. he'd gain some kinda insight into how women think and then come back over to being a guy and just be swiming in girls. ...
the idea of tuck as an explorer was added to by jack when he was trying to define tuck and tuck didn't get care about the clothes so he wasn't CD or TV. tuck didn't actualy wantto BE a girl so he wasn't TS or GS.



*Mike* suggested Tuck ought to do it for the insight. When Jack suggested, "gender explorer", Valerie agreed, not because it was true, but because, as she thought to herself:

"This sounded great. Anything that didn't make me gay
sounded great." - Tuck 21, 21:42 11 Mar

Neither explanation was Valerie's. Neither tells us why Tuck was willing to do it or is able to do it so well.

Quote:

tuck being IS or whatever doesn't really matter.


Who knows what set of instinctual gender templates dwell in Tuck's noggin? IS "males", as an exmple, those with Klinefelter's syndrome, are statisticly more likely to be TS than ordinary males. being IS doesn't make Tuck gender varient, but it increases the odds.

Quote:


is it actualy your argumant that everyone who grows breasts, is atracted to men, looks more like a girl than a guy, and gets along better with girls than with streight guys is really a girl in denial?



Short answer: no. Sometimes it matters. Sometimes it doesn't. Making a more attractive female than male is one one weight on the decision scale. (I'm not arguing to a jury, I'm explaining why I interpret the saga as I do.) Fitting in better as a woman may tip the balance between remaining male and changing - or it may not.

Quote:


all i'm saying is that you shouldn't use physical traits or sexual oriantation to decide what you think tuck's perfured gender/sex is.


Where have I declared I know what Tuck's preferred gender is? That's for Ellen to reveal. That said, remember, Valerie loves Travis. Travis is only interested in her as a woman and does not want her has a gay man. Of all the factors bearing on the integration of Tuck and Valerie, that may prove the most important. We'll have to wait and see.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #669] Sat, 07 December 2002 23:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nebula
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yellow wrote on Sat, 07 December 2002 05:16



I don't think that the search for self-identity necessarily comes from constantly chasing new experiences. I believe it hinges on a deep understanding of our reaction to events



My disagreement was over whether the heart of the drama is a *quest* for self-identity. If Tuck tried hard to discover his true self rather than trying hard to avoid it, I'd agree. What if you'd written that Romeo and Juliet was a romantic tragedy about two lovers kept apart by the hatred of their families, and then I'd disagreed because I thought the play was about the quests of two teenagers for there self-identities? What if I made the argument that Romeo and Juliet are teens and teens and must be in a quest for their self-identities because all teens are? What if I listed examples where Romeo learned more about himself and examples where Juliet's identity changed as well? Would that mean that the play was really about the quest of two teens for their self-identities?

Quote:


Debbie is a huge emotional blindside and the thought of a confrontation with her nearly paralyses him with fear. Instead of addressing this he's built up a fantasy where Debbie is an "Ogre" and thus makes his fear justifiable. The true reason for his behaviour still isn't apparent to me; ...



Tuck isn't the first boyfriend Debbie tried to convert into a male lesbian. A prior attempt discovered he was gay and it enraged Debbie. She swore to Tuck if he turned gay she'd kill him. When you consider how afraid Tuck is of being beaten or killed, it makes sense Tuck would want to keep his distance, even if Debbie seemed to retract her previous death sentence.

[Updated on: Sun, 08 December 2002 00:04]

Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #670] Sun, 08 December 2002 01:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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nebula wrote on Sat, 07 December 2002 23:58

My disagreement was over whether the heart of the drama is a *quest* for self-identity.


Okay, that wasn't what I got from what you were saying. You seemed to be disputing that there were any elements of self-discovery and I don't really recall anyone saying that Tuck was only about Eugene's quest for a self-identity. Maybe there has been some two way misapprehension here.

Still, I consider the story to contain so strongly a quest for self that I find it hard to understand why anyone would not see this as a major theme. You keep asking for some specific but I don't know what would satisfy your desire. Do you want Tuck to announce loudly that he is trying to find himself? Tuck isn't introspective enough to vocalize something like that.

To use your Romeo and Juliet analogy, to me it looks as if you are denying that R&J is a romance because they never have sex. Smile

Let's try to clear this up: if the main THEME (not plot; theme) of Tuck isn't self-discovery what is the theme? In your opinion? Smile

- Erin
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #671] Sun, 08 December 2002 01:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nebula
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Sat, 07 December 2002 13:10
[quote


Why does intent matter? Conscious intent can't be the defining point, that's why I included the Monty Python quote.



If I see a knight in armor, point to the west and tell him, "Good Sir Knight, the Grail is in the Abbey over that hill." and then he grabs the reigns and spurs his horse to the east, hell bent for leather, isn't it reasonable to deduce he isn't on a quest for the Grail even if some kind soul later drops it into his hands?

Quote:


I think the problem is your definition of trying, you seem to mean that the attempt has to be the sole focus and motivation or it doesn't count.



It has to be the primary motive for the drama to be *about* a quest rather than about something else, with self-discovery tossed for good measure. He is trying - trying to avoid finding because he's afraid of what he may find. How can the crux of the drama be his "quest" when he runs from it?

Quote:


Tuck signs up for cosmetics courses and has all kinds of rationalizations for why this is a good idea but the important thing is the exploration of limits.



The real motive for the class is unclear, even to Tuck. A willingness to explore limits doesn't mean it's the crux of the drama.

Is identity what you do or who you are? On a Myers-Briggs test you might find Tuck's profile begins with an "I" and Valerie's begins with an "E".

Speculative questions of the day:

What's Tuck's Myers-Briggs profile? What's Valerie's?

Perhaps it would make an interesting thread.

Quote:


Same for planning to spend all night at Travis's, sure the sex turns out to be good but Val couldn't have been sure it would, she doesn't have that level of experience yet.



Val knew how her body responded to kissing Travis. She went with what she wanted. Did the same myself the first time, and I sure didn't do it to discover who I was. Trust me, any self-knowledge I gained was incidental.

[Updated on: Sun, 08 December 2002 01:20]

Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #672] Sun, 08 December 2002 01:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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nebula wrote on Sun, 08 December 2002 01:14

If I see a knight in armor, point to the west and tell him, "Good Sir Knight, the Grail is in the Abbey over that hill." and then he grabs the reigns and spurs his horse in the east, hell bent for leather, isn't it reasonable to deduce he isn't on a quest for the Grail whether or not some kind soul later drops it into his hands?



None of the above would mean the story isn't about the quest. Smile Don't confuse the character's internal motivations with the theme of the story. If someone consistently runs from something in a story, then that something has much to do with the theme of the story.

Quote:

Quote:


I think the problem is your definition of trying, you seem to mean that the attempt has to be the sole focus and motivation or it doesn't count.



It has to be the primary motive for the drama *about* a quest rather than about something else, with self-discovery toss in to boot. He is trying - trying to avoid finding because he's afraid of what he may find. How can the crux of the drama be his "quest" when he runs from it?



How can it not? That's what baffles me, if someone in a story runs from a hurricane is the hurricane not important to the story? That seems to be what you are saying. It DOES not have to be the primary motive of the character to be what the story is about. Ever heard the phrase "up to your ass in alligators?" In the movie, Tombstone, Wyatt's principal motivation is to be a successful businessman, is that what the movie is about? Doc's motivation seems to be to live a good life of booze and gambling while waiting to die. The Clanton's want to rustle cattle, Mrs. Earp wants to get stoned on laudanum. None of those things is what the movie is about.

Neither plot nor motivation defines theme.
Quote:


Quote:


Tuck signs up for cosmetics courses and has all kinds of rationalizations for why this is a good idea but the important thing is the exploration of limits.



The real motive for the class is unclear, even to Tuck. A willingness to explore limits doesn't mean it's the crux of the drama.



Again, motive and theme are not the same thing. A character's motive isn't what the story is about, even a character's actions may not define what the theme of the story is. It's more in the way it is told. And Ellen is telling this story as a quest for identity. What else could it be?

Quote:


Is identity what you do or who you are? On a Myers-Briggs test you might find Tuck's profile begins with an "I" and Valerie's begins with an "E".

Speculative questions of the day:

What's Tuck's Myers-Briggs profile? What's Valerie's?

Perhaps it would make an interesting thread.



It might at that. Me I'm an XNXP. Smile

Quote:

Quote:


Same for planning to spend all night at Travis's, sure the sex turns out to be good but Val couldn't have been sure it would, she doesn't have that level of experience yet.



Val knew how her body responded to kissing Travis. She went with what she wanted. Did the same myself the first time and I sure didn't do it to discover who I was. Trust me, any self-knowledge I gained was incidental.



And again, that doesn't mean much in the context of what I was talking about, Val's motives are not the theme of the story.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #673] Sun, 08 December 2002 02:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nebula
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Sat, 07 December 2002 22:11


Still, I consider the story to contain so strongly a quest for self that I find it hard to understand why anyone would not see this as a major theme.



I'm becoming redundantly repetitive over and over again, but I disagree that the theme can be a *quest* for his identity, when he works so hard to avoid finding it. We can root for Tuck to discover his true identity.

Quote:


You keep asking for some specific but I don't know what would satisfy your desire. Do you want Tuck to announce loudly that he is trying to find himself? Tuck isn't introspective enough to vocalize something like that.



Being unclear about what he wants isn't the problem. It's about how much he doesn't want to discover who he is. Show me where he makes an effort to find himself and face the difficult questions. So far he's done his best to avoid dealing with his intersex condition. He's run from facing his parents with half his current life. He's hidden that same half from his therapist. Are those the choices of someone searching for their true identity?

Quote:


To use your Romeo and Juliet analogy, to me it looks as if you are denying that R&J is a romance because they never have sex.



The proper analogy would be for me to deny it's a romance if they avoided each other whenever them met because they are afraid of one another.

Quote:


Let's try to clear this up: if the main THEME (not plot; theme) of Tuck isn't self-discovery what is the theme? In your opinion? Smile



I wrote before, in this thread, only half in jest:

"Isn't the heart of the dramatic tension the separation of Tuck and Valerie? I read the saga as a twist on the classic story of two destined lovers, divided by adversity until they can finally be joined in the story's denouement. Of course, for Tuck and Valerie, it would mean literally, rather than figuratively, becoming one."

I see the theme, not so much as one of self-discovery, but as an internal conflict over self-acceptance. Why does Tuck not face what it means to be Valerie? Does he refuse to discover because he's afraid to face and accept it?



- Erin[/quote]

[Updated on: Sun, 08 December 2002 02:59]

Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #674] Sun, 08 December 2002 03:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cate
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All this talk about themes is making my poor confuzzled head hurt!

About the make-up/hair/beauty/what-eveh course. Wasn't that Debbie's idea, and after the breakup it was to far into the summer to change Tuck's schedule? If that is a correct assumption on my part, the theme is Tuck lets his/herself get roped into stuff by the principle of least-resistance. Not a very deep principle to say the least.

As for the rest of it, can't we look at the possibility that the whole schmeer is just a story? Ya know "Sometimes a story is just a cigar." er..."A cigar is just a stor..." OH! You know what I mean!
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #675] Sun, 08 December 2002 04:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nebula
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Sat, 07 December 2002 22:54
[quote


If someone consistently runs from something in a story, then that something has much to do with the theme of the story.



Having something to do with the theme isn't the same as being the theme.

Quote:


A character's motive isn't what the story is about, even a character's actions may not define what the theme of the story is. It's more in the way it is told. And Ellen is telling this story as a quest for identity. What else could it be?



Rehashing probably too much, as I wrote in a subsequent message, I read the saga as a conflict over self-acceptance, not a quest for self-discovery. I see the barriers to self-discovery as a consequence of the more important conflict. Tuck's running away from discovery is pivotal to the distinction. In reality, there are times when life can teeter on the precipice of the difference.

Quote:


It might at that. Me I'm an XNXP. Smile



"X"? Your first and third basic preferences vary from test to test, or you have low statistical confidence scores on them, or you wish to keep your I vs. E and T vs. F private? Smile

Mine's INTP - with the I and P preferences edging toward lower confidence scores.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #676] Sun, 08 December 2002 05:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nebula
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Cate wrote on Sun, 08 December 2002 00:29

All this talk about themes is making my poor confuzzled head hurt!



Please take two aspirins, get some sleep and post again in the morning. Smile

Quote:


As for the rest of it, can't we look at the possibility that the whole schmeer is just a story? Ya know "Sometimes a story is just a cigar." er..."A cigar is just a stor..." OH! You know what I mean!


Of course it's a story, but any story with such sparkling dialog and artfully drawn characters takes on a live of it's own. Besides, until Ellen deigns to grant us with another installment - hint, hint, we have to content ourselves with masticating what we have. Smile
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #677] Sun, 08 December 2002 05:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Sun, 08 December 2002 06:11

To use your Romeo and Juliet analogy, to me it looks as if you are denying that R&J is a romance because they never have sex. Smile


Er, they do. Right after they get married in secret.

Well, you could argue they had been playing patty-cake all night (the night followed by the "What light through yonder window breaks" scene), but then I'd have to laugh at you. Smile Onstage sex probably wouldn't have got past the Elizabethan censors, especially as in those days all parts were played by males, but IMHO the writing between the lines is in fairly bold type here. Smile


Rachel
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #678] Sun, 08 December 2002 10:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
fanchild  is currently offline fanchild
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Cate wrote on Sun, 08 December 2002 02:29

All this talk about themes is making my poor confuzzled head hurt!

About the make-up/hair/beauty/what-eveh course. Wasn't that Debbie's idea, and after the breakup it was to far into the summer to change Tuck's schedule? If that is a correct assumption on my part, the theme is Tuck lets his/herself get roped into stuff by the principle of least-resistance. Not a very deep principle to say the least.

As for the rest of it, can't we look at the possibility that the whole schmeer is just a story? Ya know "Sometimes a story is just a cigar." er..."A cigar is just a stor..." OH! You know what I mean!


To comment on the first part:

He has a bad habit of giving in to peer pressure from people he likes. Not an uncommon fault.

And the second part:

Well yeah, but... That is a whole different way of looking at it. Ya can try to guess Ellen's motives, or you can look at the characters as real people and try to analize them accordingly. Both are interesting things to do, I think. IMHO Ellen thought it would be funny to get Tucker into doing makeup as Tucker. But if you look at Tuck as a real person, he's got to behave in a consistant way. So he needs good reasons for doing stuff. At least good reasons in his own head. So Debbie got him into it, and it was too late to change it when they broke up. And then Jill begged him to stay with her. And he figures that all the jocks already think he is a faggot, so they won't be suprised in the least. So it shouldn't do any harm. Actually the class is more scary to Jill than Tuck. Tuck isn't the least bit afraid of makeup and girl stuff but Jill IS. And he wants to help his friend and give her support in her quest to become more "normal".


fanchild
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #679] Sun, 08 December 2002 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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nebula wrote on Sun, 08 December 2002 02:53


I'm becoming redundantly repetitive over and over again, but I disagree that the theme can be a *quest* for his identity, when he works so hard to avoid finding it. We can root for Tuck to discover his true identity.



Again, you seem to be conflating motivation and theme. At this point we are both repeating ourselves. Believe what you will, and I shall do likewise. Smile

Can we agree that this is a many-layered story open to many different interpretations, including some that are mutually contradictory but equally valid?

- Erin
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #680] Sun, 08 December 2002 14:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nebula
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I find it curious you seem stuck repeating your issue of motive/theme without respondeding to the real issue, as I see it, which is whether the theme is a quest for self-discovery or a conflict over self-acceptance. You contend the former and I the latter, but you've not acknowledged my view in any way suggesting you understand my side of the disagreement.

Do you understand my side and disagree, or do you not understand my side? It's hard to accept we've reached an impass over a difference of interpretation when you imply the difference is something it's not. How do I know you understand my opinion and aren't just arguing with a misconception of it?
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #681] Sun, 08 December 2002 15:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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nebula wrote on Sun, 08 December 2002 14:22

I find it curious you seem stuck repeating your issue of motive/theme without respondeding to the real issue, as I see it, which is whether the theme is a quest for self-discovery or a conflict over self-acceptance. You contend the former and I the latter, but you've not acknowledged my view in any way suggesting you understand my side of the disagreement.

Do you understand my side and disagree, or do you not understand my side? It's hard to accept we've reached an impass over a difference of interpretation when you imply the difference is something it's not. How do I know you understand my opinion and aren't just arguing with a misconception of it?


I would say that a conflict over self-acceptance is only part of the quest for self-discovery, another, and narrower, view of the same thing. Yes, Tuck has a conflict over self-acceptance, no, that is not the whole theme of the story.

I find it curious that you keep trying to refute the thesis of quest as theme by repeatedly conflating motive and theme. That's why I point it out when you do it.

You do not feel I have acknowledged your view, I feel that I have, and in turn do not feel that you have really considered what I and others have been saying.

Perhaps I have not considered all that you have been saying, but remember it was you who attempted to refute the quest as theme; I have been defending the quest hypothesis, not refuting the conflict one.

As I said before, your view of the story can be equally valid as mine. I don't get from you that you are willing to concede that mine is as valid as yours.

As to how you know whether I understand your opinion, you don't and you can't. No one can. It is the human tragedy that we are all alone with no one to talk to but shadows.

- Erin
"I know where I came from, but what about all you zombies?" - RAH
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #682] Sun, 08 December 2002 17:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KellyDahl  is currently offline KellyDahl
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I know this is a little late but earlier on I saw people posting results from Myers/Briggs tests. I would just like to say that in my opinion that after taking one(I can't remember the results), I find them to be somewhat inacurate. I also am really not impressed with them. Alot of the questions they ask my first and honest responce is to take both answers, which the test just doesn't allow.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #683] Mon, 09 December 2002 04:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ray96  is currently offline Ray96
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Hmm,

don't you have to discover about yourself to accept yourself? How can Tuck accept himself, if he hasn't found out, who he is? The path to self-discovery is certainly part of the story. But the search isn't very focused, because Tuck dosen't really like to face his problems.

Ray
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #684] Mon, 09 December 2002 07:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yellow  is currently offline yellow
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Wow! Well I don't think I really have anything to add that Erin hasn't voiced already. However, whilest I do chose to interpret "Tuck" as a story about self-discovery and am aware that this implicitly proscribes another interpretation; it is after all only from my point of view.

The significance of nuance is so heavily coloured by personal experience that we may be left just discussing semantics and though I am fascinated by language, it's so tied up in who we are that I don't feel we can untangle it in any short space of time; I do enjoy hearing other peoples perspectives (wouldn't be here otherwise Wink) but prefer to take them at face value, gradually building up a picture of the person over time. Anyhow, it wasn't my intent to hijack the thread and I apologise if my opening post seemed a little confrontational.

Quote:

Kim always has someone bigger, stronger or more assertive around to 'protect' her from anything she doesn't like. She doesn't really face things herself, and she has a support group of friends in the Pack that she can hide in. I think it's a hindrance to her dealing ability.



I agree it's a good observation (makes me think i don't pay enough attention to relationships within The Pack) esp. with regards to Kim and Jill. However I've always felt that The Pack are a very positive influence, protective without being indulgent: look at how they dealt with Debbie after "the split". If Mike and Kim did overcome their problems, do you think they would manage to stay together anyhow?

Quote:

IMHO Ellen thought it would be funny to get Tucker into doing makeup as Tucker



A case of Fate/Ellen feeling wicked? I think I agree. Very Happy
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #685] Mon, 09 December 2002 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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tuck has what my freind would call an electron personality. he coined that term after a character in apocalypse now who starts off as a marine, then becomes a fisherman, then something else, finaly ending up as a tribal canible. through the whole movie he just accepted whatever he was told. if he was supposed to be a marin, thats what he was. if he was supposed to be something else. he's become that. he rarely questioned what he was told and seemed to have little moral resistance to anything he'd become. his personality simply took the path of least resistance.

now i'm not saying that tuck is exactly like that. he does resist the change a little. at least in his own mind. but he's told to be something and he is that thing. he dated travis enough times and now he doesn't even question it. he was told he had to eb a female babysitter, and he was. the gay cafe knows him as a girl, so thats what he is when he's there. a paturn was established. and tucks personality has just been following the path of least resistance within that path.

that doesn't mean he can't be discovering himself. tuck is not his manorisms, his speach paturns, or the clothes he wears. he could be doing all the things he is doing as val and still be discovering things about himself. everyone is constantly learning more about what it means to be themselves. evry one is changing. static systems always explode into chaos. the few times tuck went static, something exploded. but atleast he's still there. he's adapted to the changes. he is a much more open to who he might be than he was at the begining of the story. he is still not accepting of everything about himself. but how many of us are? we all have a dark side. a side we don't want to face, and we don't want other people to see. tuck's coming to terms with his. and may eventualy embrace it. he hasn't yet. but that culd come at any time. it could come gradualy, or it could all come at once. we won't know. but one thing's for sure. if tuck hasn't faced his shadow by Sept 27th he's going to be in for another explosion.
Meyers-Briggs [message #686] Mon, 09 December 2002 16:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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The lack of ambiguity in the M-B test is probably why I come out different everytime I take it. That's why I listed myself as xNxP. Half the time I come out Introvert and half, Extrovert; I come out Thinking or Feeling in just about the same ratio. I am firnly Intuitive and definitely Perceiving, but the other two axes are iffy.

Carrying out your thought, I think (and feel Smile) that this is because when both answers appear correct (or both incorrect), which one I mark is probably a matter of chance.

- Erin
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #688] Mon, 09 December 2002 18:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
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Doragoon wrote on Mon, 09 December 2002 10:19

tuck has what my freind would call an electron personality. he coined that term after a character in apocalypse now who starts off as a marine, then becomes a fisherman, then something else, finaly ending up as a tribal canible. through the whole movie he just accepted whatever he was told. if he was supposed to be a marin, thats what he was. if he was supposed to be something else. he's become that. he rarely questioned what he was told and seemed to have little moral resistance to anything he'd become. his personality simply took the path of least resistance.


so what you are saying is if Tucker was put in a diffrent medium away from his current influnces of friends and current surroundings he would become a diffrent persona in the blink of an eye almost?

Quote:

now i'm not saying that tuck is exactly like that. he does resist the change a little. at least in his own mind. but he's told to be something and he is that thing. he dated travis enough times and now he doesn't even question it. he was told he had to eb a female babysitter, and he was. the gay cafe knows him as a girl, so thats what he is when he's there. a paturn was established. and tucks personality has just been following the path of least resistance within that path.


so you think being with Travis is merely a social construct and there are no true feelings involved? just a matter of doing what he was told to do ?
yes he was told to be a female babysitter but he could have said NO WAY and could have mowed yards or something else to make money
the gay cafe honestly could care less if he were presenting as male or female as I am sure there are some queens pop in from time to time all they are concerned with is making money.
I do not buy the routine theory totally as he is all too willing and happy to be Valarie. .if you showed Tuck/Valarie a dress to die for would s/he not drool and desire it? even if he may think no he doesn't slow down a bit in what he is doing or where he is going so he is actually thinking yes and loving it. . all he needs to do is accept it himself.

Quote:

that doesn't mean he can't be discovering himself. tuck is not his manorisms, his speach paturns, or the clothes he wears. he could be doing all the things he is doing as val and still be discovering things about himself. everyone is constantly learning more about what it means to be themselves. evry one is changing. static systems always explode into chaos. the few times tuck went static, something exploded. but atleast he's still there. he's adapted to the changes. he is a much more open to who he might be than he was at the begining of the story. he is still not accepting of everything about himself. but how many of us are? we all have a dark side. a side we don't want to face, and we don't want other people to see. tuck's coming to terms with his. and may eventualy embrace it. he hasn't yet. but that culd come at any time. it could come gradualy, or it could all come at once. we won't know. but one thing's for sure. if tuck hasn't faced his shadow by Sept 27th he's going to be in for another explosion.


self discovery I so agree and with the help of his therapist the coming to terms is indeed not only possible but now plausable.


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #689] Mon, 09 December 2002 22:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

so what you are saying is if Tucker was put in a diffrent medium away from his current influnces of friends and current surroundings he would become a diffrent persona in the blink of an eye almost?


probably not immediatly. but i'd think tuck would adapt to whatever suroundings he would find himself in. he'd probably take a lot of thought or think he's being clever or something. but he could adapt. look at what he does when he's at aunt jane's. he becomes totaly comfortable there and actualy manages to get a lot of freedom within the system.

Quote:

so you think being with Travis is merely a social construct and there are no true feelings involved?


no. i believe that most people are bisexual to some degree. who knows what tuck likes. he seems to like girls more often. and thats what he claims. but we don't really know. he did seem to like deb. he was atracted to her, but there wasn't the mental and emotional closeness he has with travis. but none of it would have happened if he didn't become open to the situation through being forced to play that role so many times. and social pressure probably helped out too.

Quote:

yes he was told to be a female babysitter but he could have said NO WAY and could have mowed yards or something else to make money


but he was told thats what he was going to do. the path of least resistance was to just go along with it. plus he needed a job. and that was a sure thing. summer jobs can be hard to find and lots of hard work. once again. it was the path of least resistance. it wuld have been harder for him to find his own job. plus he was probably worried about upsetting Deb.

Quote:

if you showed Tuck/Valarie a dress to die for would s/he not drool and desire it?


probably not. more than likely he'd think that it would be better for one of the pack. like the dress he got for jill. at most, all he'd think was that travis might like it.

Quote:

self discovery I so agree and with the help of his therapist the coming to terms is indeed not only possible but now plausable


though tuck does not need the gentle humanistic style help he's getting. it's not really getting through too him too much. he's got half of this sesion left and one full session, and then he's going to have to deal with whatever the tests show. she's been going easy on him. but now there's a deadline. tuck needs to get comfortable with whatever might happen. and he's still not there yet.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #690] Tue, 10 December 2002 05:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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About the dress, Tuck has already displayed the shopping reflexes the Pack helped Valerie develop. Yes, Tuck would think, how would Travis like me in this, but so do all other women think that way. I don't have the exact spot in the canon to point to, but Valerie has gone back to buy stuff that Tuck saw in the mall. Smile

-- Erin
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #691] Tue, 10 December 2002 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yellow  is currently offline yellow
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Quote:

though tuck does not need the gentle humanistic style help he's getting. it's not really getting through too him too much. he's got half of this sesion left and one full session, and then he's going to have to deal with whatever the tests show. she's been going easy on him. but now there's a deadline. tuck needs to get comfortable with whatever might happen. and he's still not there yet



Perhaps, but i suspect Sheila might use the test results themselves to confront him: She's been fighting slowly to gain his trust but can tell that Tuck's still holding out on her. If she uses factual information as a wedge to make him open up about his thoughts and feelings then he's less likely to misconstrue it as a personal attack. I think any change in style beforehand would be risky by comparison, making Eugene feel insecure just when he needs to be supported.

-H
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #692] Tue, 10 December 2002 11:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jaime  is currently offline Jaime
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[quote title=yellow wrote on Tue, 10 December 2002 06:30]
Quote:


Perhaps, but i suspect Sheila might use the test results themselves to confront him: She's been fighting slowly to gain his trust but can tell that Tuck's still holding out on her. If she uses factual information as a wedge to make him open up about his thoughts and feelings then he's less likely to misconstrue it as a personal attack. I think any change in style beforehand would be risky by comparison, making Eugene feel insecure just when he needs to be supported.

-H

Im not going out on a limb here, in jumping straight from the trunk.
We all know that Eugene's brain multi tasks when he is bored. When he goes to Sheila's he is normally day dreaming elsewhere, he has been caught afew times that way by her. If Sheila has the ammo (the test results) she will usa them in a tactful way(IMHO)
I dont believe that she will come out in a frontal assault on Eugene unless hes being evasive.
When Eugene finally gets to Sheilas (figuring 2-3 episodes) the family will be there also. Im curious what defenses Eugene will have up due to that.
Why do I figure 2-3 episodes? 1) There is still Tucks party with lots of evidence to go over and retaliation planning. He will see the incident involving Mike as an attack on the Ratz Boyz. With the pack there at the party you know they will be involved. This might place Kim in a very interesting position. The party was at her house afterall and directly involves her sister.
2) Than you have whatever action they decide to execute.
Than maybe he will finally get to Sheilas.

Just my thoughts............ what does that mean? probably not a damm thing Laughing
But what the hell !!
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #693] Tue, 10 December 2002 18:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

i suspect Sheila might use the test results themselves to confront him


confrint him about what? "i suspect you have been tampering with your DNA?" thats the only way tuck could be to blame for the results of the test results.

and jumping from, you are developing into a girl, or you are geneticly /biologicly a girl or something like that, jumping from that to, you have been dressing likea girl... thats not a logical jump.

the more logical jumps are from tuck's relationship with travis. though thats still a big jump. more than likely it will be mike once again pushing tuck and then shiela takes a shot in the dark that hits close enough for tuck to go ahead and come out with it.
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #694] Tue, 10 December 2002 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Confront does not mean accuse. It's a sort of forced presentation, here it is, deal with it.

Sheila does not seem to be that sort of counsellor to me.

- Erin
Re: Future Tuck - generally [message #695] Wed, 11 December 2002 05:14 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
yellow  is currently offline yellow
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Registered: December 2002
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Quote:

If Sheila has the ammo (the test results) she will usa them in a tactful way(IMHO)I dont believe that she will come out in a frontal assault on Eugene unless hes being evasive.



I think so too, however I do believe that she has to focus on Tucks reaction to the test results in their session or at least encourage him to talk with someone-else about it.

Quote:

...jumping from, you are developing into a girl, or you are geneticly /biologicly a girl or something like that, jumping from that to, you have been dressing likea girl... thats not a logical jump.



Absolutely, but that's not something I was attempting to imply; I think it should be clear from Tuck's behaviour to Sheila that a lot remains to be said, however I don't believe she'd make assumptions about exactly what that was.

Quote:

Confront does not mean accuse. It's a sort of forced presentation, here it is, deal with it.



Exactly, the term can have hostile overtones but it can also mean simply "To bring someone face to face with". It's unfortunate, in my experience, that some councellors choose to interpret it aggressively.

Quote:

Sheila does not seem to be that sort of counsellor to me.



Do you mean that she wouldn't employ confrontation? I suspect you'd be correct in an ideal situation, but I also agree that when the results come back it's necessary for Tuck to address the issue and not run away from it. Perhaps I am over-identifying with her (she is one of my favourite characters) but, regardless, I think Tuck's in good hands.

Smile

-H

[Updated on: Wed, 11 December 2002 05:17]

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