Home » Tuck Talk » Chapter discussion of Tuck Season... » Number Nine... Number Nine...
Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6371] Sat, 27 March 2010 09:35 Go to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Is Paul dead? Did he die in a car crash with Ellen?



...

No, really, Episode #9 is finally up. #10 is outlined.


Ellen
nosig
Re: Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6373] Sat, 27 March 2010 10:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Huh. We finally see the retelling of Tuck's escape and meeting Trish. As expected, it's somewhat darker in tone than in the old draft, and WAY more detailed. The rain was a nice touch.


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6374] Sun, 28 March 2010 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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May be darker, but I like it better. Pauline is no longer hanging around Trish voluntarily - which fits an older sister - and they do have a mother and a home and suchlike, none of which was ever shown or referred to in the original.

Also, I think I got some humor in there as well... though I think I can find myself laughing onanistically over pieces that no one else even recognizes.

Plus, y'know, pizza. =) Everyone likes pizza...


Ellen
nosig
Re: Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6375] Sun, 28 March 2010 10:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sir Lee  is currently offline Sir Lee
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Oh, I agree that it fleshes the characters and storyline better. That's part of what makes it "darker." I don't know if "dark" is the appropriate term here, as it has some implications I don't feel are appropriate. But "serious" imply lack of humor, which definitely is not the case.

Madcap comedy, as a genre, doesn't lend itself to careful characterization. As soon as you abandoned the shallowness of the madcap and dove for three-dimensionality of the characters, a somewhat darker tone was unavoidable. It still has humor, sure, but it's a different style of humor.

However, consider this: you DO show a gift for madcap comedy at times. It shows in parts of the main "Tuck Saga," it shows in the old draft of "Tuck Season" and "Bikini Beach: All Tucked Up". Maybe madcap no longer fits the direction Tuck is taking, but...

Well, you have intimated at times that -- besides computer, health, and money problems and Real Life getting in the way -- sometimes it's the dread Writer's Block that keep you from writing more Tuck Saga/Seasons. Perhaps a side project, unrelated to Tuck, with totally different tone and a looser structure -- more episodic and madcap, less concerned with continuity and deep characterization -- more "Looney Tunes," less "Babylon 5" -- could help you get around that block.


Don't call me Shirley. You will surely make me surly.
Re: Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6376] Mon, 29 March 2010 15:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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At some point, Valerie will want to retrieve her computer and stuff...

As for the darker tone, I don't know if we should call it dark yet, but I see it as an opportunity for more pathos in the story for characters such as Trish. The latter Jane Thompson stories had her charges work with the less fortunate as to develop their empathy. It will be natural for Valerie to bond with Trish in a way even Valerie doesn't yet expect.
Re: Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6377] Mon, 29 March 2010 21:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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I don't know much about ASL proficiency ratings, but I was wondering about the fact that Valerie was spelling out some common nouns and verbs, looking for the proper signs from either the sisters or the mother. What is her level of proficiency?
In the canon, Tucker passes an ASL exam on Aug 18, to get out of taking a language class. I am presuming that this was an AP type exam - so, shouldn't he already know the signs for "delivery", "summer" or "healthy"? It would be proper signs, assuming there are ones, for maxi-pads, makeup or hair dye in which he might not be familiar.
On the other hand, I can appreciate in this Seasons story that Ellen wouldn't likely have the chance to work in a scenario of Tucker discussing and learning special words in sign language about Newtonian mechanics with a deaf physics teacher....
Re: Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6378] Tue, 30 March 2010 17:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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lurker wrote on Tue, 30 March 2010 02:14

What is her level of proficiency? In the canon, Tucker passes an ASL exam on Aug 18, to get out of taking a language class. I am presuming that this was an AP type exam

Nope, it was more a 2nd-year-of-high-school Foreign Language level of proficiency. It's been years since he was around kids who 'spoke' ASL, and he's forgotten some, and never picked up other signs. I thought it was more realistic to have Tuck not entirely native-fluent in a language he hasn't spoken regularly since 1st/2nd grade.

As for "darker, but..."; how about using the phrase 'not as light'? Or, perhaps, 'not as lite'.
Madcap will come later, when Tucker is more convinced that he isn't going to wake up in chains in Saudi Arabia or Singapore or someplace.

Ellen
nosig
Re: Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6379] Tue, 30 March 2010 18:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Sir Lee wrote on Sun, 28 March 2010 15:57

Perhaps a side project, unrelated to Tuck, with totally different tone and a looser structure -- more episodic and madcap, less concerned with continuity and deep characterization -- more "Looney Tunes," less "Babylon 5" -- could help you get around that block.

I don't think I _CAN_ write, ANYTHING, without paying attention (deep attention, verging sometimes on obsessive) to characterization, continuity, and the like.

Ellen
nosig

[Updated on: Tue, 30 March 2010 18:16]

Re: Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6380] Sat, 10 April 2010 10:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
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I wonder how long it'll be until Jane (or someone) generates enough clue to retrace the route they took that day? And are sufficiently observant of the busineses they pass?

Or when Art and Darryl arrive and get the story of how Tuck's security cable disappeared. The obvious conclusion is that Tuck had something he wanted to keep secure, something that Marie didn't find. The logical corollary is to search Tuck's room, really search, and finding the laptop and the remainder of the escape-and-evasion kit just might give Jane the insight that Tuck's not what she expected. Plus the dress would indicate that Tuck's not at all uncomfortable in women's clothing.

The laptop brings up another point: if they turn it on it'll obviously be working but not in any way with which they'll be familiar. It does have a modem and Jane might get a listing of recent calls from The Phone company.

On a totally different topic, I kinda wonder about the food stamps and under what circumstances Trish had them.
Re: Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6381] Mon, 12 April 2010 03:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
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mkemp wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 07:27

The laptop brings up another point: if they turn it on it'll obviously be working but not in any way with which they'll be familiar. It does have a modem and Jane might get a listing of recent calls from The Phone company.


Won't do any good. Tuck will have dialed into a node for a common ISP or some other generic modem access pool. From there, tracing will be difficult.

I remember that sort of thing from the 80s. Dialing into Compuserve or Dow Jones while on a trip. And if you know what you are doing, you can dial out again.

We know Tuck knows enough to spoof phone company computers. And likely the same for getting around on the Internet.

So all they'd know is that he'd dialed into a modem pool.

Also, odds are that they won't have anything but a login prompt if they find and start the computer.

Quote:

On a totally different topic, I kinda wonder about the food stamps and under what circumstances Trish had them.


Her family is poor, Food stamps are pretty standard for poor folks. And by the late 90s, they weren't actual "stamps" (actually scrip) in most states, but rather a form of debit card.
Re: Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6383] Tue, 13 April 2010 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iWindoze  is currently offline iWindoze
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lurker wrote on Mon, 29 March 2010 20:14

I don't know much about ASL proficiency ratings, but I was wondering about the fact that Valerie was spelling out some common nouns and verbs, looking for the proper signs from either the sisters or the mother. What is her level of proficiency?


As someone who signs, (albeit I'm more of a pidgin mix of the various "Signed English Exactly" or SEE failed experiments of eighties and nineties...to understand the politics involved run down a copy of Harlan Lane's When The Mind Hears) I can testify that Tuck's method of signing corresponds closely to my own and I didn't pick it up until I was just hitting my early teens despite having been hard of hearing for all my life. The way I was taught was to work around the word I was reaching for and then finger spell it, either asking for the proper sign or having the other person immediately supply it for me without prompting.

Also there are some signs that are regionalisms. Just like hearing people develop an accent in their speech signers adopt signs that are specific to one region only. Then there are "home signs" which grow out of a smaller community of Deaf people or a single Deaf child living within a hearing family, if the parents don't learn sign language (and you would not believe how often parents don't, Tuck's parents are a rarity in that they went through the effort of learning signs to help communicate with him when he was younger) they start making up their own and sooner or later these can crossover into common use. The word "immature" wasn't formally distributed until the late 90's for instance when Gallaudet University (first college for the Deaf in the United States) made up a word to use for it. Country names change all the time due to political correctness--for instance Japan and Japanese used to be the letter "j" near the eyes, then changed to be a gesture intended to describe the islands. Korea and Korean used to be the letter "k" by the eyes and was changed a gesture by the head intended to describe the traditional hats some Koreans wore. That was changed yet again recently and I never bothered to learn the new sign, since most people still know the old one and I don't see how it can be considered racist myself, while I can understand why some might think the original could be seen as derogatory and not descriptive...

Any way, yeah I was looking forward to seeing Trish again and was not disappointed in the way signing was handled. It felt completely natural and correct to me.

--iWindoze
Re: Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6384] Tue, 13 April 2010 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iWindoze  is currently offline iWindoze
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Tue, 30 March 2010 17:16

Sir Lee wrote on Sun, 28 March 2010 15:57

Perhaps a side project, unrelated to Tuck, with totally different tone and a looser structure -- more episodic and madcap, less concerned with continuity and deep characterization -- more "Looney Tunes," less "Babylon 5" -- could help you get around that block.

I don't think I _CAN_ write, ANYTHING, without paying attention (deep attention, verging sometimes on obsessive) to characterization, continuity, and the like.

Ellen
nosig



I'm sorry but Bikini Beach: All Tucked Up disagrees with you.

I'm not saying that you didn't do characterization or work within your own continuity there, but my understanding has been you have that story set outside the normal Tuck universe and despite the beginning of that story being set in the Tucky Seasons universe it is considered outside that universe as well. The story itself is just a madcap adventure with lots of fun involved in it. There were times when I pictured Tuck doing a classic Daffy Duck "Woooo---hooo---wooo!" while running through the park. Pure fun!

So maybe of you get stuck you could try your hand at some "drabbles" as becoming popular on many fanfiction story sites. These are short stories that act more like an extended outline than any actual story and are intended as a collection of scenes using familiar characters in strange new situations, sprinkled liberally with humor. They are also extended out takes of scenes that simply refused to be written seriously.

I know that we'd love to read whatever you can pull up for us, but if you don't feel comfortable, you just don't. Just don't try to pretend you're not capable, because none of us can swallow that! We know better...

--iWindoze
Re: Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6385] Sat, 17 April 2010 17:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lurker
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parsing what iWindoze wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 09:48


As someone who signs, .....

Any way, yeah I was looking forward to seeing Trish again and was not disappointed in the way signing was handled. It felt completely natural and correct to me.
--iWindoze


iWindoze,
Thanks for an explaining about a world I am totally unfamiliar with, it gives an interesting insight that parallels to the speaking languages.

My parents immigrated to this country just before WWII. My cousins immigrated in the 70's. When our Grandma past on in the late eighties, all the family gathered at the wake. There was some communications among the parents and the adult children in the mother tongue. Afterwards our recently immigrated cousins chuckled at our version of the old country language. They said we spoke using an English accent and syntax and used rural idioms as if were the 1930's in the countryside. It is similar to your use of regionalism of signing.

Great explanation, thanks!
Re: Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6386] Mon, 19 April 2010 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iWindoze  is currently offline iWindoze
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lurker wrote on Sat, 17 April 2010 16:28

iWindoze,
Thanks for an explaining about a world I am totally unfamiliar with, it gives an interesting insight that parallels to the speaking languages.


Glad I was able to be of assistance!


When I was first learning Sign Language myself, I would often run into words that one person knew and another didn't--when I finger spelled the word, that person would usually grin and sign the version of the sign they were most familiar with. Until I realized what was happening this would be a very frustrating experience for me, because I would berate myself for screwing up the signs--not realizing that there were dozens of signs for the same thing but dependant on which region of the United States that person was from.

lurker wrote on Sat, 17 April 2010 16:28

My parents immigrated to this country just before WWII. My cousins immigrated in the 70's. When our Grandma past on in the late eighties, all the family gathered at the wake. There was some communications among the parents and the adult children in the mother tongue. Afterwards our recently immigrated cousins chuckled at our version of the old country language. They said we spoke using an English accent and syntax and used rural idioms as if were the 1930's in the countryside. It is similar to your use of regionalism of signing.

Great explanation, thanks!


Well that's the thing to remember too--the ASL signed in the United States had its origins in the Sign Language used in France, since it was a Deaf French teacher who was brought over to the United States and it is from him we get our sign language. So there is a common root in the signs used in the United States and France up until the 1800s when they diverge and develop seperately, the FSL mixing with some of the "home signs" used in Europe, the ASL signers mixing and adding to the language from the Native Americans of various tribes and places like Martha's Vinyard where a genetic quirk resulted in an unusally high population of Deaf people and whose "home signs" were added to the language.

I imagine I could understand some signs if I were to visit France but the further lingustic drift would result in much more confusion than the humor of your cousins. That's the thing people forget about language--it is a living breathing changing thing...

--iWindoze

Re: Number Nine... Number Nine... [message #6425] Wed, 14 July 2010 18:32 Go to previous message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Back-checking something, and I re-found this:

iWindoze wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 18:00

Ellen Hayes wrote on Tue, 30 March 2010 17:16

Sir Lee wrote on Sun, 28 March 2010 15:57

Perhaps a side project, unrelated to Tuck, with totally different tone and a looser structure -- more episodic and madcap, less concerned with continuity and deep characterization -- more "Looney Tunes," less "Babylon 5" -- could help you get around that block.

I don't think I _CAN_ write, ANYTHING, without paying attention (deep attention, verging sometimes on obsessive) to characterization, continuity, and the like.

I'm sorry but Bikini Beach: All Tucked Up disagrees with you.

I'm not saying that you didn't do characterization or work within your own continuity there, but my understanding has been you have that story set outside the normal Tuck universe and despite the beginning of that story being set in the Tucky Seasons universe it is considered outside that universe as well. The story itself is just a madcap adventure with lots of fun involved in it.


Well, possibly so. But I did bug Whozhername for maps or layouts or anything that described the park - and got some of it, 'cause I've still got the map - and IIRC I also asked some very specific questions too.

So, no, I don't think I can write without paying attention to etc., like I said.


Ellen
nosig

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