Home » Tuck Talk » Future Tuck » Decision for Travis?
Decision for Travis? [message #819] Sat, 15 March 2003 04:42 Go to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
I was going to write a lot here about interactions between McAllen and Red Bluff High students and the consequences for Valerie's relationship with Travis, but most of it seems to have been covered in the "Starting Anew" thread here.

The short point is that it's almost inevitable that somebody from McAllen is going to encounter Travis and Valerie together in a social situation, and given the people that Travis hangs out with, it'll probably be a jock or a cheerleader who makes the discovery.

Ironically, Tuck could probably survive such an incident, given the way he dealt with Ashlee. It won't hurt that he can take control of McAllen's computer system if the need arises, and that he's at least neutralized the administration thanks to his summer encounter with Dobson.

It's Travis who'll have a decision to make. It seems to me that unless he knows a whole lot more about transgender situations than he's let on AND can convince a large number of people that his relationship with Valerie is heterosexual in the face of evidence to the contrary, he's going to be in real trouble -- stigmatized at school, barred from the Boy Scouts, faced with strained relationships with basketball teammates in the locker room. His best chance of minimizing those effects would be to drop Valerie, fast.

Or he can stay with Valerie and try to put the rest of his life back together, however it falls.

Which way do you figure he'd go?

Eric
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #820] Sat, 15 March 2003 22:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Janet  is currently offline Janet
Messages: 74
Registered: December 2002
Location: Valley of the Sun
Member

The first / obvious choice is plausable deniability. All Travis has to do is say he really didn't know that Valerie wasn't all girl. The number of people who really know the extent of their relationship is pretty small. Yes, there are those who suspect, but few who know the truth and fewer who would talk about it.

There are risks involved, but I think that there is a middle area here. Unfortunately, neither Travis nor Val will think far enough ahead to anticipate it, though.

I have a funny feeling that the Travis/Val relationship will not survive anyway.


Janet

All that glitters is not Iron Pyrite
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #821] Sun, 16 March 2003 03:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iWindoze  is currently offline iWindoze
Messages: 172
Registered: September 2002
Location: USA
Senior Member
Here's a bigger question, in my notes (I've been
trying to plot together a story based on similar
questions) I've noted that although Travis mentions
once or twice that he has brothers, etc he's only
17-18 at most and he's not living with his 'rents!
He has his own _private_ apartment where he can
apparently while the hours away without suspicion.
He obviously isn't hurting for cash, as he has his
own vehicle and can afford a POS computer at '97
prices. Not to even mention that he's always taking
Valerie to the _expensive_ and _fancy_ restaurants.

I don't recall off hand, (my notes are at home, I'm
visiting my parents) but I know that John the hair
dresser and Mrs. Parker know each other socially, and
Travis seems like a family friend to the Parkers as
well. Somethings strange here, and my bet is that
Tuck's secret life isn't as secret as he'd like to
think. My speculation is that Travis (who if IRC is
living with one of his brothers?) was estranged from
his parents when his sexuality came out, that Travis
is himself at least Bi, if not completely gay, and
that he may be earning his money in less than savory
ways. _The Basketball Diaries_ come to mind for some
reason...

The fact that Travis goes out with Tuck as Val may just
be the implied assumption on his part that this is just
phase he's going through (all those physical problems
notwithstanding) and that Tuck will eventually come out
as a gay man. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt and
self-delusion is as old as the pyramids. The way that
people keep giving them 'the look' when out in public
may be because Travis' true preference is known and his
friends are surprised to see him with *her* in public.

This is of course just speculation being typed by a half
awake monkey running off of fumes from the last can of
pop he drank three hours past his bedtime. ;P We'll see
what Ellen does with the story when she finishes re-reading
it in between her breaks for her regular reading.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #822] Mon, 17 March 2003 03:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ray96  is currently offline Ray96
Messages: 20
Registered: October 2002
Location: Germany
Junior Member
I think the theory, that Tuck's always been a girl might still work. Travis' friends have seen Val nearly naked, without makeup. It'd be hard for them to believe rumors that he might be a guy. And the boys at his school? Are they more comfortable, having showered with a girl or a gay guy? Either way most of them would claim, that they never really paid attention to him. Given, that he looks like a normal girl as Valerie, most rumors would die soon. There'll always be people, who call him/her names. Moving to another town, living as Valerie? She'd still be smart, like math, is bad in English, likes computers, knows how to defend herself,... She'd still might suffer from minor harassment, because she'll never fit into a typical role model. It all depends on how comfortable and self-confident she is about being female and how she deals with the harassment.


If Travis is gay, wouldn't he also cherish Val's male parts? He might have moved out, because of his bad relationship with his brothers. His parents seem to be rich, so he gets adequate pocket money. Tough I've got to agree with your bad feeling about the relationship. But a break - up might very well kill him, because righ now Travis seems to be the focus of Tuck's life, he makes his/her life worth living for.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #824] Tue, 18 March 2003 11:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Janet  is currently offline Janet
Messages: 74
Registered: December 2002
Location: Valley of the Sun
Member

Ray96 wrote on Mon, 17 March 2003 02:59

-snip-

Tough I've got to agree with your bad feeling about the relationship. But a break - up might very well kill him, because righ now Travis seems to be the focus of Tuck's life, he makes his/her life worth living for.


I disagree. While it would be a very tough time for Val, losing Travis would not be the end.

Travis is part of what makes Val alive, but not all. There are the Parker kids, the Pack, and (always) Mike. Val has too much support and strength to have that do her in.

Remember, Tuck is a survivor. Otherwise, the story would not have gone on as long as it has.


Janet

All that glitters is not Iron Pyrite
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #825] Wed, 19 March 2003 21:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
>>>I have a funny feeling that the Travis/Val relationship will not survive anyway.<<<

True, after the Pack did a Greek Chorus-type number against it at the sleepover at the end of August, it's almost literary necessity that the relationship will meet its doom somehow.
Which is what started me on the question of how it'll happen...

(I have this weird feeling that when Tuck finally stops reacting, takes the initiative and decides where his life is going, about a year from now -- I mean, that just about has to be where the story's headed, right? -- he'll end up with Kelly, all the Where's-Pat jokes notwithstanding. It'd take the full year, though -- he'd never date a freshman.)

Eric
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #827] Fri, 21 March 2003 02:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ray96  is currently offline Ray96
Messages: 20
Registered: October 2002
Location: Germany
Junior Member
Dating Kelly? I though Tuck prefers boys over butch girls...
I guess, a blow up with Travis would only happen, if he can't decide, being Val or choses reverting back to male, which would also involve the loss of his job, going to doctors AND being one of the Pack. He really needs some time off to think alone - though he'd better take Mike with him, in order to chose what he want's and not, what is more convenient for him.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #828] Fri, 21 March 2003 07:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
If Travis IS gay, given that he'd been chasing Valerie since they met on Halloween, that would suggest that he caught onto Tuck from the beginning and didn't need Lisa to tell him later. (Of course, we only have Travis' word, four months after the fact, on the conversation with Lisa, and he specifically told Val that Lisa was too drunk to remember it, so there'd be no way for Val to confirm it. I can't see what Travis would gain from fraudulently creating a scene like that one on July 14, though -- he already knew that Val was ready to have sex with him.)

As people here have noted, there are things about Travis that don't seem on the level, not least of which is how Lisa got obligated to him to the point of having to pay Tuck $400 to date him.

(Not that there isn't stuff that Lisa would pay $400 to hush up, like her part in creating Radio Free McAllen or whatever they called it. But we seem to be talking about obligation, not extortion -- if only because Travis would be just as vulnerable himself if he tried blackmail. Then again, if all you're extorting is a date with the friend of a friend...)

Oh, well. I just hope we get an explanation sometime reasonably soon.

Eric
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #829] Fri, 21 March 2003 09:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Janet  is currently offline Janet
Messages: 74
Registered: December 2002
Location: Valley of the Sun
Member

Ray96 wrote on Fri, 21 March 2003 01:49

Dating Kelly? I though Tuck prefers boys over butch girls...
I guess, a blow up with Travis would only happen, if he can't decide, being Val or choses reverting back to male, which would also involve the loss of his job, going to doctors AND being one of the Pack. He really needs some time off to think alone - though he'd better take Mike with him, in order to chose what he want's and not, what is more convenient for him.

Tuck has swung both ways. Why should there be any expectation that would change?

The idea of Val hooking up with Kelly is intriguing. I'm not so sure that the idea of going with a freshman would really be a problem for Val. I think the real problem there would be that if Val went full-time, it could force Kelly out of the closet.

The last thing that Val/Tuck would want to do would be to make another of hir friends a target.

As far as Travis is concerned, I have no idea of exctly what it will be, but eventually, he is going to do something that will hurt Val deeply.


Janet

All that glitters is not Iron Pyrite
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #830] Sat, 22 March 2003 04:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
Messages: 712
Registered: September 2002
Location: Surf City, USA
Senior Member
Administrator
Interesting thread. Smile But I think Travis is a part of Val's longtime future and I base this not on analysis of interpersonal relationships of fictional people but on Ellen's savvy as a writer. Go back and read the first episode of Tuck if you wonder what I'm talking about. Smile

- Erin
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #832] Sat, 22 March 2003 06:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Upinmyhead  is currently offline Upinmyhead
Messages: 15
Registered: September 2002
Junior Member
I tend to take Travis' original story at face value, in that he thought Tuck was a real girl until the night he got drunk and hurt his ankle, and then found out the truth from Lisa. I can see the logic behind being in a committed homosexual relationship with someone who passes as a girl, mainly because there's little to no homophobia directed at a couple that seem, for all intents and purposes, heterosexual. Well, that's high-school conformity for you.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #833] Sat, 22 March 2003 06:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
Messages: 641
Registered: January 2003
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
>>>I think Travis is a part of Val's longtime future... [based] on Ellen's savvy as a writer. Go back and read the first episode of Tuck if you wonder what I'm talking about. <<<

Logical point. It certainly does argue against Travis disappearing without a trace from Val's life.

But that's even more true for Debbie, who's been out of the narrative now for longer than I think any of us would have anticipated even after the breakup.

It's certainly possible that what we're leading up to, a year (or whenever) from now, is Tuck's final choice between the two of them, after his relationships with each of them have suffered monumental but (as it turns out) temporary setbacks.

Clearly, other possible alternatives along those lines seem less satisfactory:

-- Ellen kills one of them off to leave the field clear for the other - way too convenient, and I still think that at some point Tuck has to stop reacting and take the initiative; this'd forestall his doing so.

-- Tuck ends up with both of them - again, too convenient, probably too saccharine, and awfully difficult to square with Debbie's character and personality. And again, inconsistent with the Tuck-has-a-decision-to-make element of good plotting.

-- Tuck finds his problems impossible to handle and ends the story abruptly, either by killing himself or otherwise leaving everything behind, never to return. Well, it takes care of the decision-to-make element, but outside of letting the loyal reader down, I'd say it no longer works with the story as it's gone forward. Ellen would have to find some way for Tuck to lose all his friends as well as Travis before he'd ever get that despondent again -- not impossible, but not very satisfying.

On the other hand, Tuck wouldn't be the first hero to (a) go through two contrasting but eventually unsatisfactory sets of events while leading up to a third that proves more successful, or (b) live happily ever after with someone who wasn't introduced until the middle of the story.

Eric
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #834] Sat, 22 March 2003 11:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Janet  is currently offline Janet
Messages: 74
Registered: December 2002
Location: Valley of the Sun
Member

Erin Halfelven wrote on Sat, 22 March 2003 03:35

Interesting thread. Smile But I think Travis is a part of Val's longtime future and I base this not on analysis of interpersonal relationships of fictional people but on Ellen's savvy as a writer. Go back and read the first episode of Tuck if you wonder what I'm talking about. Smile

- Erin

A Travis/Val break up does not preclude Travis' being, as you say, a part of Val's longtime future.

The breakup with Debbie was a while ago and she is still a part of Val's present and future. There is still a possibility of a reconcilliation, which would keep Debbie in the picture, but in a different role.

Ellen is probably thinking of something completely different, but I see three stages of development here.

First is Tuck's boy-girl relationship with Debbie (Yes, this is a simplification). Next is Val's boy/girl-boy relationship with Travis. It seems to me that there will be at least one more step of Val's girl-??? relationship with TBD (to be determined). Of course, this could be someone we already know, or someone completely new.

In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter if Travis is what he seems or not. Something will happen that will set things in motion. That's all it usually takes. =)


Janet

All that glitters is not Iron Pyrite
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #835] Sun, 23 March 2003 10:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
Messages: 712
Registered: September 2002
Location: Surf City, USA
Senior Member
Administrator
Well, an obvious thing for Ellen and Tuck to explore is a lesbian relationship; a girl who relates to Tuck as a girl. There have been hints and foreshadows of some experimentation in this direction. But I think that would be what it was, experimentation; Tuck's future, long term, is with Travis or someone like Travis.

Tuck loved Debbie but their relationship was based on Debbie's domination of Tuck. She's an unstable character, so is Tuck; the last thing either of them needs is to be depending on another flaky personality. And they are both savvy enough to understand this on some level.

Travis seems to be very stable and this is part of what caused Valerie to fall in love. There may be a breakup with Travis, a fling with Debbie and/or someone else (Jill? Jack?) but if Tuck is to be happy longterm, she's going to need someone with Travis's solid qualities.

Not that all is sweetness and light there, Ellen has hinted that Travis' incomprehension of some of Val's interests could become the seeds of a permanent breakup.

In that case, Jack, or someone like him, may be a very viable alternative for Valeries. She is attracted to him, though it confuses her.

Getting back to story mechanics, Jack could work. And he could certainly work as a fling during a Travisless interregnum.

- Erin
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #846] Wed, 09 April 2003 19:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kearan  is currently offline Kearan
Messages: 8
Registered: September 2002
Location: Indy, Indiana
Junior Member

[quote title=Eric wrote on Wed, 19 March 2003 21:07
True, after the Pack did a Greek Chorus-type number against it at the sleepover at the end of August, it's almost literary necessity that the relationship will meet its doom somehow.

Eric[/quote]

"In any sort of suspense story, if a gun is cocked by the end of the first act, it had better be discharged by the end of the second..."
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #847] Thu, 10 April 2003 02:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ray96  is currently offline Ray96
Messages: 20
Registered: October 2002
Location: Germany
Junior Member
In my eyes, the relationship between Val & Travis went a little bit too smooth. So far, no big fights, mainly because Val does like being wit Travis too much to risk a fight. But the present situation - preassure from her friends and the end of chapter 94 - might lead to their first big fight. A good relationship should survive such a fight. Depends how much they hurt each other. I'd trust Travis in trying to seek a reconsiliation Very Happy

Ray
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #848] Fri, 11 April 2003 00:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KellyDahl  is currently offline KellyDahl
Messages: 39
Registered: October 2002
Member
I hate to bring this up, but does anyone else see a paralel between Val's actions and those of Tina when Tuck talked about dating her? Travis does have some right to be mad at her after all she was with there with him(all be it she didn't want to go mini-golfing), and she disapeared only to be found with another guy. Travis probally wouldn't have been as mad if Jack wasn't there.

Kelly Dahl
Oh no! You fall in Nannichuan, Very tragic story of girl who fall in spring and drown One Thousand Five Hundred year ago! Now you younge girl! - Jousenkyo Guide
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #849] Wed, 16 April 2003 11:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yraen  is currently offline yraen
Messages: 3
Registered: September 2002
Junior Member
I havent seen this come up but I believe that Travis is just the rebound guy for tuck/val. they got together when tuck/val was hurting after the breakup with debbie. i think the from the ending of the last chapter that the fight might be the beginning of the end. with all the twist so far that ellen has given us im thinking that she has one more twist for tuck/val in the relationship area.

Re: Decision for Travis? [message #850] Wed, 16 April 2003 14:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
Messages: 334
Registered: September 2002
Location: Everett, WA
Senior Member

val didn't decide to date travis untill a month after deb and tuck broke up. do people think thats too short of a time?

what probably ws rushing things was the only REALLY dating for 2 weeks before they had sex. i think that was rushing things. even if they where kinda fake dating for months before that.

i think the more telling thing is that tuck only dated both deb and travis when they confronted him about it. tuck was not the initiator. he has admited that he doesn't look at other people when he's dating someone. so, more than likely tuck has about no sex drive. he's not really atracted to anyone.. only atracted to people who are atracted to him.

once again... tuck has problems. he needs help.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #851] Thu, 17 April 2003 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Upinmyhead  is currently offline Upinmyhead
Messages: 15
Registered: September 2002
Junior Member
KellyDahl: I don't see a strong connection. I mean, it's not like Val intended to get with another guy or anything, whereas Tina organized beforehand to leave Tuck hanging. Val meeting up with Jack was pure coincidence, and he did already have a ladyfriend with him, as well.

Besides, Jack and Val are friends, in a "Hey I remember you" kind of way. And there's nothing much between them. Not that Travis knows that, but how hard can it be for Jack to walk up, say "Hey, Val and I just know each other and we've hung out a few times. It's no biggie." I mean, seriously, if Travis can't get over that, he's got issues.

Hell, I think he's overreacting as it is, concern duly noted. But Val also needs to take a breather and not get so defensive. I couldn't recall offhand the number of times I've met someone I know like that, gotten a little sidetracked, and ended up hunting down whoever I was originally with and explaining that I was just catching up with a friend. Why it's such a big deal with Travis I guess we'll find out soon enough...

Doragoon: Probably. Especially with how they broke up. Travis, to me, always seemed like a bit of a rebound-guy. I think Tuck kind of got in the mindset of "Someone must love me now" and perhaps overlooked some issues with Trav that it took the Pack to really take note of. And notice that he's still pretty much avoiding the issue.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #852] Fri, 18 April 2003 03:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
Messages: 334
Registered: September 2002
Location: Everett, WA
Senior Member

Quote:

Tuck kind of got in the mindset of "Someone must love me now" and perhaps overlooked some issues with Trav


go back and read chapter 55(i think). tuck has a LOT of problems with dating travis. it takes a long time to come to grips with that.. it wasn't an easy thing for him to face. if anything pushed him into getting into another relationship i think it would be amy flirting with travis. the jellousy tuck felt helped convince tuck that he really had feelings and cared about travis.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7229] Wed, 15 August 2012 00:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne  is currently offline Anne
Messages: 355
Registered: April 2012
Senior Member
What has really surprised me is that once Travis had a cooling off period after the breakup fight (that did occur)that he did not start pursuing Val again.

From almost the first Travis has been fairly proactive in pursuing Val. Thus it really makes no sense that he would let a fight (even a second fight) end the relationship he thinks he has with Val.

I think that if Tuck would get over himself (not easy as he really does expect Travis to murder him if Travis ever has to face Tuck's penis) I think it might be possible for them to have an actual relationship rather than for Tuck to be using (I know it's reciprical)Travis as a masturbatory aid... Most of all I some how don't think that if Ellen ever gets back to this story that we have seen the last of Travis. What he might think of Pam (who is definitely walking on the lesbian side...) we don't or won't know until Ellen has them in a confrontation.

Also this: If Travis were truly gay he would have acknowledged Tuck's penis long ago. Certainly after they started having sex.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7230] Wed, 15 August 2012 06:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stanman  is currently offline stanman
Messages: 292
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
Will Travis push Tuck to have the op and become Val?
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7231] Wed, 15 August 2012 21:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne  is currently offline Anne
Messages: 355
Registered: April 2012
Senior Member
Unless Travis can be a lot more convincing than he has been then Tuck will say I like to be able to stand to pee. And I DO Not LIKE UTIS!

IOW Tu/Val will say nix to going with a sex change. Just put up with my extra long clitoris!
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7235] Thu, 16 August 2012 04:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stanman  is currently offline stanman
Messages: 292
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
What about looking into the surgeons who violated Tuck?
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7236] Thu, 16 August 2012 09:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne  is currently offline Anne
Messages: 355
Registered: April 2012
Senior Member
Why? Ok they should have left things ambiguous... But they were influenced by beliefs (whether true or not) that said it was best to clear up the ambiguity.

The fact that there were invisible ambiguities could not be known until they manifested when Tuck entered puberty.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7237] Thu, 16 August 2012 10:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stanman  is currently offline stanman
Messages: 292
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
Because I can see the Tuckers causing them grief over their unasked for surgery. Smacks of malpractice and mutilation, harm to a minor.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7242] Fri, 17 August 2012 00:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne  is currently offline Anne
Messages: 355
Registered: April 2012
Senior Member
Rolling Eyes Some how I think that Bill and Sarah are not the lawsuit type... If they thought they could cut him the Doc up into small pieces without getting caught otoh... Shocked Yeah I could see that happening.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7248] Fri, 17 August 2012 04:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stanman  is currently offline stanman
Messages: 292
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
Would they let Tuck do the honors as it was Tuck who was mutilated?
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7252] Fri, 17 August 2012 18:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne  is currently offline Anne
Messages: 355
Registered: April 2012
Senior Member
I doubt they would see any upside to seeking revenge this long after the fact. The doctor was not responsible for anything except his action. But then that is true of all of us though some would have it be otherwise.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7260] Sat, 18 August 2012 08:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stanman  is currently offline stanman
Messages: 292
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
What if the doctor was loaded, or has a history they can exploit?
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7264] Sat, 18 August 2012 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne  is currently offline Anne
Messages: 355
Registered: April 2012
Senior Member
Oh they might extract a pound of flesh if they thought his action was with malice. They might extract some any way to help put Tuck through school.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7266] Sat, 18 August 2012 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mkemp  is currently offline mkemp
Messages: 421
Registered: April 2006
Senior Member
I think the early operation on Tuck was a repair of a birth defect, commonly considered a routine matter at the time.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7270] Sun, 19 August 2012 10:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne  is currently offline Anne
Messages: 355
Registered: April 2012
Senior Member
That is how it would be viewed by a court I'm sure. Maybe not today, but in 97-98? Yeah pretty much.

The question was however: If the Doc had his ass hanging otherwise would the Tuckers exploit it? I think they would so long as him having his ass hanging didn't create a hazard for other people. I think also that they would be wise blackmailers and only do it once.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7275] Sun, 19 August 2012 14:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stanman  is currently offline stanman
Messages: 292
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
I am guessing that Tuck was born intersexed, a penis and a vagina
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7276] Mon, 20 August 2012 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne  is currently offline Anne
Messages: 355
Registered: April 2012
Senior Member
Now if the 'rents can prove that there would be justification for a lawsuit.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7282] Mon, 27 August 2012 03:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
Messages: 695
Registered: August 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Senior Member
stanman wrote on Thu, 16 August 2012 07:16

Because I can see the Tuckers causing them grief over their unasked for surgery. Smacks of malpractice and mutilation, harm to a minor.


Until *quite* recently, that sort of thing (up to and including not asking the parents, much less telling them about the situation) was *normal* medical practice.

Really.

That's one of the things that led to the formation of ISNA (Intersex Society of North America).

Yes, the Tuckers would try to (and possibly succeed)in causing some trouble. But there'd be pretty severe limits in what they could do *legally* because that the time it was done, it *was* considered "normal" to do such things. It was considered "best" for the patient.

Heck it wasn't until about them that the fact that Dr. Money had falsified his research results (upon which far too much of this sort of thing was justified) came out.

So they actually thought there was good evidence that gender identity was *learned*, not innate.

Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7283] Mon, 27 August 2012 03:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stanman  is currently offline stanman
Messages: 292
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
Dr. Money?????????????????????
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7284] Mon, 27 August 2012 03:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
Messages: 695
Registered: August 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Senior Member
mkemp wrote on Sat, 18 August 2012 15:00

I think the early operation on Tuck was a repair of a birth defect, commonly considered a routine matter at the time.


Sort of. The fact that the urethal opening (meatus) was not where it's normally located on a male (hypospadia?) is a not uncommon defect.

But it's also a *definite* intersex condition. Which *now* would (or at least *should*) result in a whole bunch of tests to determine what the kid actual is.

Of course, if they *had* decided it was an intersex condition the then *standard* "repair" would have been trimming down the hypertrophied clitoris to a "normal" size (and incidentally, likely destroying most of the sensitivity).

Nowadays, doctors that follow the newer protocols (there's still not a uniform set) would be trying to spin the findings to get the parents to agree to "correcting" things.
Which, given Tucks genetic makeup, would have been trying to make him into an "acceptable" girl.

Reducing the clitoris to "normal" size, creating a vaginal, etc.

Given the number of IS folks who are *not* happy with the results of such things, doctors still need to get hit over the head about their attitudes.

Yeah, the surgery is "easier" on a baby. But it's not until puberty or later that you can be sure what the kid would want.

Doctors are *way* too into making "normal" kids out of IS babies.

Yeah, they'll have problems when seen naked until they are old enough to decide which way they want to go. But that's a case of needing to train society.

And, of course, the easy fix frequently leaves the teenager or adult stuck with a body they don't want that *would* have been easier to turn into something they can live with if the doctors hadn't been in a rush.

"Trimming" that hypertrophied clitoris may be easy, but restoring it is essentially impossible.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7285] Mon, 27 August 2012 03:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
Messages: 695
Registered: August 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Senior Member
stanman wrote on Sun, 19 August 2012 11:55

I am guessing that Tuck was born intersexed, a penis and a vagina


No, the odds are that there wasn't a vagina. If there was, the normal procedure would have been to "reduce" the overlarge clitoris.

Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7286] Mon, 27 August 2012 03:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
Messages: 695
Registered: August 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Senior Member
Anne wrote on Mon, 20 August 2012 09:54

Now if the 'rents can prove that there would be justification for a lawsuit.


As noted above, they'd not have much chance. Until the 90s, standard procedure was to "correct" babies with anomalous genitals. Often without even telling the parents.

And in a lot of places, that was still the "standard" until a lot more recently.

A defense of "standard medical practice" is hard to get around. It can be done, but it's really hard.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7287] Mon, 27 August 2012 04:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brooke  is currently offline Brooke
Messages: 695
Registered: August 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Senior Member
stanman wrote on Mon, 27 August 2012 00:40

Dr. Money?????????????????????


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

Summary of the relevant part:

There was a circumcision accident that essentially destroyed the penis of one of a pair of male identical twin boys.

On the advice of Money (who backed the idea that gender is learned, not ingrained) the baby was given crude SRS, and raised as a girl. Including hormones at puberty.

He published a series of paper about how well the child adapted to the new gender (with a fictitious name to "protect" the child).

Then said child became an adult and proceeded to tell *his* side of things. He'd *never* accepted being a girl. And tried to transition as soon as he was old enough to do so without parental permission.

He was quite vehement about things.

And, alas, he later committed suicide.

But for almost 2 decades Money's papers were "proof" that you could make a kid be the gender you wanted them to be.

The number of fucked up kids (especially trans kids forced to conform to their assigned gender) that resulted is a crime against humanity.

It didn't do IS kids any favors either.

Money died a year or two back. Still unrepentant.


Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7291] Mon, 27 August 2012 11:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne  is currently offline Anne
Messages: 355
Registered: April 2012
Senior Member
All of which proves that having a PHD after your name doesn't mean you know everything!

I quite agree that the most probable was a urethra that didn't open through the visible penis.

What Travis has to decide is if he can live with Tu/Val not having any surgeries to change any thing about hirself?

He indicated it didn't matter but would he feel the same if he really knew that Val spent more time presenting as Tuck or Tucker?

I still tend to think that Tuck's paranoia has truncated his relationships with everyone except Mike... And Mike is his brother.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7295] Tue, 28 August 2012 05:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stanman  is currently offline stanman
Messages: 292
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
Yes, but the thing about paranoia is that it's inbuilt safety tends to be a shield against those who would hurt you
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7298] Tue, 28 August 2012 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne  is currently offline Anne
Messages: 355
Registered: April 2012
Senior Member
stanman wrote on Tue, 28 August 2012 02:44

Yes, but the thing about paranoia is that it's inbuilt safety tends to be a shield against those who would hurt you


Until it keeps you from forming any relationships for fear that you will be hurt. Anne knows all about that as she lives alone in paranoia land.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7301] Wed, 29 August 2012 01:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stanman  is currently offline stanman
Messages: 292
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
Who other than Mike does Tuck trust?
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7304] Wed, 29 August 2012 20:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne  is currently offline Anne
Messages: 355
Registered: April 2012
Senior Member
stanman wrote on Tue, 28 August 2012 22:28

Who other than Mike does Tuck trust?


No one and as Val proved over summer Tuck doesn't really trust Mike with Val stuff.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7306] Fri, 31 August 2012 05:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stanman  is currently offline stanman
Messages: 292
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
Yeah, cause when Mike found out about Tuck/Val and Travis, he was quite angry.
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7376] Wed, 24 October 2012 04:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iWindoze  is currently offline iWindoze
Messages: 172
Registered: September 2002
Location: USA
Senior Member
stanman wrote on Fri, 31 August 2012 04:03

Yeah, cause when Mike found out about Tuck/Val and Travis, he was quite angry.


Go back and re-read the relevant parts maybe? The anger was over the deception and the lack of standard security precautions, not so much the gender, sex, or crossdressing. And really, considering the events that happened later in the series it looks as though Mike had good reason to be concerned!
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7377] Wed, 24 October 2012 21:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne  is currently offline Anne
Messages: 355
Registered: April 2012
Senior Member
I think, I could be wrong though, that part of what made Mike mad was that Tuck didn't trust him.

Yeah I can see that Tuck losing track of operational and personal security would cause Mike to be afraid and angry too. But all in all I think it was a matter of broken trust. Otherwise why would they need the ritual?
Re: Decision for Travis? [message #7379] Sat, 27 October 2012 04:46 Go to previous message
stanman  is currently offline stanman
Messages: 292
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
And the ritual helped to ground the hurt Tuck when Val was sent to the other reality where Tuck/Val was not sent to Seasons House
Previous Topic:Main series vs Seasons?
Next Topic:Snippet of drivel
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Sat Jun 23 00:57:47 EDT 2018

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.03124 seconds
.:: Contact :: Home ::.

Powered by: FUDforum 2.7.7.
Copyright ©2001-2007 FUD Forum Bulletin Board Software