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Tuck Cubed? [message #868] Wed, 23 April 2003 19:35 Go to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Re: Tuck Cubed? [message #869] Thu, 24 April 2003 00:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Re: Tuck Cubed? [message #870] Thu, 24 April 2003 02:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Re: Tuck Cubed? [message #871] Thu, 24 April 2003 02:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Re: Tuck Cubed? [message #872] Thu, 24 April 2003 02:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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One more time.
Re: Tuck Cubed? [message #875] Thu, 24 April 2003 18:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
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shaken and not sturred


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Tuck Cubed? [message #876] Fri, 25 April 2003 05:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Starting over, since the board seems to be accepting SOME copy now (and I'm forewarned enough to save this in case it doesn't show up):

As Rose2 pointed out in the guestbook, thinking up alternative "Sliders"-type Tuck universes is a lot easier than starting from scratch.

(My latest thought is one where Ellen never broke up with Tuck, so Debbie, looking for a lover to feminize, takes up with Ivan Singley instead, who then WINS the Halloween contest and goes on to work the make-up sessions and date Travis. Tuck still gets to know the Pack because Mike and Kim have gotten together, and he still does summer work for Debbie (as a male at the lemonade stand, and helping out with accounting software), but he doesn't catch onto his physical and mental changes nearly as fast, and doesn't have the Valerie outlet for them, though the Pack gets friendlier with him at school as his outlook becomes more like theirs. Meanwhile, Ellen, in more congenial surroundings, never gets raped or attempts suicide, so Nickerson doesn't overreact, isn't an immediate threat to the Boyz or the Pack and doesn't lose his job -- which makes a transition by Tuck, if he ever does think about going that route after he catches on to what's happening, impractical to say the least without leaving McAllen.)

Anyway, what I put up here in the first place, as the self-evident (?) third Tuck universe to join the mainstream and Seasons, is one where Tuck really does get to the boot camp, and -- contrary to expectations -- turns out to be as good at subverting things there and controlling the situation as he was in Jane's environment.

The argument is that the complete transformation of Tuck from a reactive go-with-the-flow type with real enemies to a (literally) incredibly inventive mover and shaker can work as effectively when he's forced to be Tuck on a 24/7 basis as it does in Jane's universe when he's Valerie 24/7 -- that his immediate need is to overcome the indecision and let one side rule regardless of which side it is, and to be in a position where he can make a first impression on people rather than being hemmed in by his past.

From a practical standpoint, at the boot camp he'd have the paramilitary aspects and familiarity with the weaponry down cold, and he very likely can communicate with Mike to smuggle in the real equivalent of the fake weapons they're probably dealing with, which could give him the leverage he needs against the adult drill leaders. Since the rest of the campers have been established as rebellious types who have no more desire to be there than Tuck does, if he can overcome their initial antipathy to someone his size and shape, he'll have an "army" behind him in revolt.

(And it may be worth mentioning that even in the mainstream Tuck universe, the "revolutionary army" he was part of on the camping trip conquered a Scout camp, albeit without the Scout leaders knowing they had an adversary.)

Anyway, the question from the point of view of a Tuck Cubed -- where he meets Tuck/Val and Valerie outside of Sheila's office building in December -- is what happened next, when he got back, had an outlet for his Valerie side again, resumed babysitting the Parker kids and renewed his relationship with Debbie (or did he break up with her, unable to handle her manipulative ways?). What kind of a Tuck/Val will the other two encounter?

Any thoughts?

Eric
Re: Tuck Cubed? [message #878] Fri, 25 April 2003 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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This seems to have gone back to being nearly normal. Hope hope hope. :>

Interesting concept for a new universe and a confluence of Tuck/Vals. So how soon can we expect to see this manifold made manifest? Smile

- Erin
Re: Tuck Cubed? [message #882] Sat, 26 April 2003 09:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Erin:

Probably a long time, if you're waiting for me to do it. I don't have the paramilitary expertise to write the summer part (I don't know that two months without Valerie would be interesting reading anyway) and I'm not as inventive as Tuck is.

My best thoughts on development there are (1) his takeover succeeds in part because the commanders realize that in getting everyone to shape up and work together, he's accomplished the camp's goal anyway; and (2) Tuck's sensitive enough about his physical development to conceal his body from the group; his second in command is convinced he's a girl and develops a crush on him, and his suppressed Valerie side responds. (Not that either of those plot twists seems particularly clever or unpredictable, or even original.)

But the way for me to avoid the summer plot problems (and the need to figure out how Tuck got the campers' confidence in the first place) would be the way Rachel did her story -- just put (in this case) the three Tuckers together in December and keep the rest as back story.

And at this point I haven't answered the questions I asked at the bottom of the note: how would Tuck/Valerie-3 have reacted upon the return and which way would (s)he go after getting the test results in the fall? (Which is one reason I asked the question.)

It seems to me that having functioned successfully as Tuck during the summer, Tuck-3 would avoid the pitfall that both Tuck-1 and Valerie-2 ran into in Rachel's story that had them cutting up their legs to prove their reality: there'd be no reason for Tuck-3 to feel that Valerie had stolen Tuck's essence and left him an empty shell. Could Tuck-3, on his own, reach the conclusion Valerie-2 did -- that his body's different, not wrong? Perhaps more to the point, could he possibly succeed in keeping both Tuck-3 and Valerie-3 happy, as it were, while losing the concealment? It's hard to see the rest of the world cooperating; is that an impossible dream? (Or one beyond my plotting capabilities, anyway.)

Again from the plotting standpoint, Tuck-3, like Valerie-2, could be helpful to fouled-up Tuck-1 in providing a positive alternative. But the rest of the relationships seem to be up for grabs: is Tuck-3 in a position to learn from the other two? Is Tuck-3, if he's gotten it right (whatever that means) a threat to Valerie-2 or an object lesson, or what?

If I had answers, I guess I'd have a story...

Eric
Re: Tuck Cubed? [message #885] Sun, 27 April 2003 06:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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ok Eric, where to begin. this is going to be LONG.


first off, i got the impression that tuck dated ellen a long time before the begining of this story. as in, before tuck dated tina the bitch. she dumped tuck at a dance or something.. i forget exactly what. but tuck started dating deb around august 6th, i think. so it would have had to have been early his freshman year, or in junior high. that would be a LONG relationship. and rather unlikly, even though they didn't break up for any real reason. anyways, lets just assume that that DID happen, becouse that would be a really nice thing to happen, tuck being in a good long term relationship, and ellen not having ever gotten raped and comiting suicide.

i couldn't see deb ever dating ivan the terrible. deb goes after men she can subdue. tuck has a reputation of being passive and a wimp. and the fact that everyone thought that he was gay could not have eluded her. ivan is KNOWN to be a great martial artist and deb would never feel as safe around him as she did with tuck. the only reason ivan went as a girl for holloween that year, was probably becouse of his mother. nevertheless, we can let this one slid as mearly highly improbably and move on to the next point.

i think you're assesment of nickerson is right on. they would have had no REAL reason to go after nickerson. but it's unclear wether or not he would have been arrested. that probably didn't have anything to do with Da Boyz.


now, the boot camp idea. first, question... why? is this what you where saying above? or is it just another split off the canon tuck?

next, tuck would have no influence over anyone in boot camp. they would all pick on him for his small size and gay/girly behavior. and being a nerd wouldn't help. most of the people there would be overly violent. tuck might have to pull a ender there. just take one down early and HARD. and hope the rest of them leave him alone after that. but more than likely, they wouldn't be that smart, they could attack him in the sleep, a bunch of them could attack him at once, or any other number of problems. no, it would be REALLY hard on tuck. more than likely he'd just loose himself in the monotony of it. it would be like school to him, compleat with the normal hazerds of jerks. he'd concentrait on surviving and doing what he was told as well as he could. he'd already know a lot of what he would be learning. so it would be boring. basicly, it would be just like normal school, but with meaner jerks. though the possibilty of tuck suiciding shouldn't be ignored.

also one last point of that. the point of boot camps is NOT to make officers. it's to make people who follow orders and to make people learn that they can't always do stuff on their own. and sometimes to say that there's always a bigger dog.

the revolutionary army that the boyscouts formed was just a natural result of the cruelty of the opressive leaders. all they needed was someone to show them that they could do something about it. look at russian history if you want to learn more about this phenomena.

now, if i understand the next question... you are wondering what tuck would be like after boot camp. well, he'd be traumatised. but it woud have had very little effect on him. he would be a little stronger, and probably more paranoid for a while. i could see him getting startled eisily and jumping at people coming up behind him. he'd probably latch on to any secure relationship he could find. mike, deb, whoever he was with and could feel safe with. i'd almost say that tuck would be very much like how he acted in seasons after the incident in the theator. very quiet, and very passive. nightmares of COURSE..

wow, this is a very complicated idea. at the time tuck's parents tell tuck about being sent to boot camp, he's already found out about the babysitting job. and is ging to take it. he finds out about the job on april 28th, accepted it the 30th. and by that time tuck had already dressed as val on the 25th and 27th. on the latter day, he basicly admits it's not that bad. so, he'd have already been ok with being val by the the time his parents tell him he's going to boot camp. and the whole looking forward to the job thing. so... when tuck gets back, he cuold go two ways. he could go compleatly passive and just be which ever person (val or tuck) the situation required. latching onto people for guidance. or he could get fed up with men. he wouldn't feel comfortable around george or dan, he'd latch onto the pack and basicly turn away from all things masculin even if he didn't know he was doing it. the pack would get him to dress as val a lot more often, even though this wouldn't be the best thing for him. becouse in that stat, if tuck hung around the pack as tuck, he'd channel the spirit of valerie if he wanted to or not. and the line that tuck has built up between the two of them would begin to desolve. but either way. it would be a BAD thing un general.
personaly, i think tuck's more likely to just latch onto freinds in general and not turn away from male freinds. unless he was raped at boot camp... but that would suck to a whole new degree

so, now the boot tuck finds out he's got his genetic problem. how does he react? probably however his freinds want him to react. he'd go along with doctors and parents. and... things change. though it would be really odd. he'd still be val if the pack wanted him to. though the increased agresion and stuff, that would suck. it's a hard thing to guage. you'd have differant people telling tuck differnat things. it could deepen the rift between tuck and val. maybe even causeing a true disosiative identity disorder. tuck having all the problems and val being the fun one. how buch would the pack see this coming. how much would mike see. mike's always trying to get tuck to think. the packs trying to keep tuck ahppy and alive and healthy.

overall. it's REALLY hard to get a person to be a girl. this option would NOT do it. EVER. it would just be problem after problem for tuck. it's probably the most likely of geting tuck commited or dead. by the time of tuck^2, boot tuck would be hardly recognisable as the tuck we know and love.


Quote:

Could Tuck-3, on his own, reach the conclusion Valerie-2 did -- that his body's different, not wrong?


no.

Quote:

Perhaps more to the point, could he possibly succeed in keeping both Tuck-3 and Valerie-3 happy, as it were, while losing the concealment?


are you saying that tuck could admitidly tell people that he was val? that he could live both lives openly? NO!! never. no one would accept that. guys would beat him up for being gay. girls would shun him for making fun of women, for not being a REAL woman. people would have to understand. and that doesn't happen. or else reparative therepy for gays would have LONG since gone away.

Quote:

is Tuck-3 in a position to learn from the other two?


yes. but he would learn that other people didn't have to go through the hell and stupidity that he did. he'd freak out. when he met two tone, with her self confidence and outgoing personality, boot tuck would flip. he'd probably do whatever she said. he might take to emulating her. but the point would be missed. he'd have to be TOLD to tell his parents about val. he'd try to keep the two seperate for as long as possible. val is everything good in tuck's life. tuck have nothing but pain and lonleness. it's an unhealthy balence that has to be remidied.
Re: Tuck Cubed? [message #891] Mon, 28 April 2003 23:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Thanks for your comments.

Re the Ellen scenario, you may be right, but don't forget that Tuck only said that he'd gone out with Ellen "a couple of times". There may not be room for a full-fledged Tuck-Ellen relationship between Tina's time slot and Debbie's, but there's more than enough space for that, and had things turned out differently, it certainly might have continued for the few months needed to pre-empt Debbie.

Ivan Singley's another question. I may have been off base there -- if his mother's a cosmetology teacher, working with Debbie probably wouldn't get him into the winner's circle on Halloween -- but if Debbie's looking for someone and Tuck's collection of attributes and liabilities isn't in the mix, Ivan, as a shy, self-effacing, slightly effeminate-looking mama's-boy with a black belt in martial arts, strikes me as a just-dangerous-enough possibility to attract her interest.

Re the boot camp timeline, yours is certainly the more likely chain of events. (Hey, if Uncle Lanier says so, who am I to argue, even if it's "only" Rachel's version of Uncle Lanier?) And I guess there's no reason why we couldn't have a Tuck-3 show up who's been so traumatized by that and so screwed up by the subsequent hormone treatment that he's a serious candidate for inpatient psychiatric care. But I don't think that's a story that any Tuck fan really wants to write.

One of the attractions of the multi-universe concept is that you don't need to concentrate on the most likely possibility, though you can certainly go too far and slip into surrealism on one side or low comedy on the other.

(Comic panel titled "Tuck Amuck": A clear spring Saturday in 1998; we're looking into a bus in front of a medical office building. We see that dark-haired Valerie-2's the driver; the passengers are about three dozen Tucks and Valeries in various stages of personal acceptance, who've been coming through, one or two at a time, just about every week since January. The latest Tuck to show up outside of Sheila's office has boarded the bus and is headed for a seat in the back, but standing in the front are two other individuals, standing arm in arm, who have just gotten onto the bus behind Tuck. Bugs Bunny has an artist's easel under his free arm. Chuck Jones' free arm is holding a tour guide's microphone. Caption: "I suppose you're wondering why I called you all here."

Maybe you had to be there...)

Anyway, I'm not disputing that your chain of events is more likely than mine, given the information we have to work with. I'm simply saying that in the hands of an inventive author working with the infinitely resourceful Tuck, that chain of events can be overcome. As in Egan's Permutation City -- copyright 1994; Tuck could even have read it -- you just throw out all the possible universes where the coin flip DIDN'T come up heads the necessary 50 times in a row.

(Or, as I suggested in my second note, in the hands of a less inventive author working with the infinitely resourceful Tuck, you simply assume that the required events took place before your current episode started, throw in about half a dozen backhand references to events and characters none of your readers know anything about, and proceed with your plotting.)

So to restate my question: Assume that Tuck, against all odds, successfully subverts the boot camp and makes it a positive Tuck experience rather than a negative one. Assume (hardly a stretch) that Valerie successfully re-emerges as a part-timer once he returns home. Assume (since it's necessary to Rachel's version of the multiverse) that tests that fall lead to a medical recommendation that Tuck take male hormones and undergo an operation in order to function as a normal, if sterile, male. Assume (as a plot development) that this character, Tuck-3, is going to end up along with Valerie-2 in Tuck-1's home town after a session with Sheila in early January.

What's he like? What can he teach Tuck/Val-1? How does he get along with Valerie-2?

Eric
Re: Tuck Cubed? [message #893] Tue, 29 April 2003 00:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

So to restate my question: Assume that Tuck, against all odds, successfully subverts the boot camp and makes it a positive Tuck experience rather than a negative one. Assume (hardly a stretch) that Valerie successfully re-emerges as a part-timer once he returns home. Assume (since it's necessary to Rachel's version of the multiverse) that tests that fall lead to a medical recommendation that Tuck take male hormones and undergo an operation in order to function as a normal, if sterile, male. Assume (as a plot development) that this character, Tuck-3, is going to end up along with Valerie-2 in Tuck-1's home town after a session with Sheila in early January.

What's he like? What can he teach Tuck/Val-1? How does he get along with Valerie-2?


i think at that point you've messed with tuck's character so much that it owuld now longer be able to tel what tuck would do... becouse it would no longer be tuck.

also, what would be the point of the boot camp? if one person can cause an uprising, then it wouldn't be boot camp. the comunist manifesto doesn't aply there. if tuck managed an uprising against all odds, the instructers would come down on tuck _SO_ hard he wouldn't last. and seeing how thier leader was treated, the others would be demoralised and the movment would fall apart. unless he took over the boot camp. then he'd just be living on his own for the next however many weeks. it might turn into a lord of the flies type situation. police would be called in. and i'm sorry, but tuck couldn't rally any group of teenagers to stand up against tear gas and police in riot gear.

i'm sorry, i just don't see tuck leading a revolution in the boot camp.


next thing, after tuck gets out of boot camp after having a positive and happy time, he goes back to dressing as val. why?
if tuck had a benefitial time at boot camp he'd have learned that he was man enough to do what ever he wanted. that val didn't have anything that he didn't have. that he could be whoever he wasnted and still be a guy. that he didn't have to look manly, to be a real man.
how would this effect his life as val? if anyhting it would let him feel comfortable enough, and confident enough to drop val.

but assuming he did dress as val? what situations would he dress for? jane's program teaches that the role you have to fill doesn't change who you are in the inside. but boot camp teaches you that the ends are all that matters. and honor. and all that stuff. i don't think he'd be happy dressing anymore. or atleast, he wouldn't want to be happy dressing. it would be a step backwards.


but assuming he DID dress occationaly, maybe he thinks that it's the only way he could acomplish certain things. then hormones to turn him into a more normal man would be seen as a way out of that. that he could finaly drop being val. he'd not get falled fag and dumped into trash cans. it would be giving him the life he always wanted. it would be taking away those things that hurt him and distanced him from the things that he was told he should be doing in boot camp.

the only reason he might not take them is... well... i can't think of anything. if he made it through boot camp, he would think he's even more of a man. T would be the thing for him.


ok, now, what if a character who went to boot camp, and had a happy life durring that time, met two tone val? she would be duisgusted. boot tuck might get mad at her and beat her up. he'd be in denial and anger that any part of him could actualy WANT to be val. it would NOT be happy. val is a tool, a means to an end. not the end itself in boot tuck's mind.

oh well. just my thoughts. but i think you warped who tuck is a little too much to get this all to work out like this. it makes it hard to predict.
Re: Tuck Cubed? [message #894] Tue, 29 April 2003 01:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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i do like the idea of what would happen if tuck stayed dating ellen. if he never dated deb. he never dressed as val. he'd never have been named val. a lot of interesting things happen. like, what if ellen never says anything about tuck's breasts? or doesn't even notice them. i could see tuck thinking that his breast growth is normal, after all some guys to get some breast growth early on in puberty. and then usualy it goes away. not anything to worry about, like tuck's undecended testicles, not anything to worry about.

so, what happens? tuck might finaly start to notice something was wronge near the end of the sumer.. but maybe not in time for gym. he might become self consious enough about them to try to keep them hidden, but would still think it was perfectly normal. how far would things go before it was unavoidable for tuck. would doc treble have noticed it? hard to tell.

in any event, we'd end up in a situation where the tuck from the begining of the story is finding out about all his medical problems. tuck might try to go along with the flow. and not knowing any better, might stay with the treatments longer than he probably should.

but i what would happen to ellen? she'd be SO messed up. to find out that the guy you'e been dating for almost 2 years has been turning into a girl, and you didn't notice. her reputation would be shot, if it wasn't already from dating tuck. but emotionaly she'd be a wreck. she'd be trying to help tuck through the changes, while adjusting to the changes herself. and not entirly sure if she likes them. history might repeat itself and ellen could try to kill herself, tuck might try too in responce. could end up with a TWISTED romio and juliet story.. and THAT would be one worth writing.

ahhh.. i can see it... two lovers from differant worlds, on a geek, the other fairly mundain. no one can understand what she see's in him, but they don't listen to the jabs and taunts of the other students. they are happy with each other just the way they are. then tuck's medical condition is discovered, and he is told that he has to change. ellen knows this is for the best, but secretly regrets the loss of the old tuck she loved so much. tuck is secretly having dificulties transitioning to the hormones, but ellen's happy apearances help convince him to continue with the treatments. there are conflicts, a fight, maybe george gets killed (he's the closet person i could think of to marcutio) they run off to get married but before the ceremony tuck confides that he isn't really happy with the changes, but that if it made ellen happy he'd stay with it, ellen freaks out, and runs crying from the room. tuck misunderstands her responce, and thinking that she is unhappy with tuck not wanting to change, tuck runs off to decide his fate. leaving his note telling everyone not to bother looking for him. ellen, beliving that tuck has already killed himself overdoses on pills, and tuck realises that he doesn't really want to kill himself races back to his darling ellen, but finding her near death, he takes a knife and slits his wrists and passes out. both lovers die, mike discovers the scene and cries out a howl of pain and agony, morning the loss of his blood brother, mike falls on his athame and rejoins him.

(ok, maybe mike should die right before tuck runs off, but hey, i'm just pulling this off the top of my head. and i think it's pretty good for that.)

a new spin on an old story. and after all, all good stories are just ripoffs of shakespear, even spakespear.
Re: Tuck Cubed? [message #896] Tue, 29 April 2003 05:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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Doragoon wrote on Tue, 29 April 2003 06:16

a new spin on an old story. and after all, all good stories are just ripoffs of shakespear, even spakespear.


I like the idea - and yes, Mike would be the Mercutio character, and his death would be the trigger to make Tuck go *completely* nonlinear, probably in a tragic way. To close the circle re: romeo and juliet, it should be someone close to Ellen that killed Mike...

Go for it! Twisted Evil

As for worrying about ripping off other stories; yeah, one just has to relax and say sod it to that I think. I don't quite hold with the "there are only seven stories" thing, but I do feel that originality of plot is secondary to eliciting the reaction from your readers that you want. It's like people dismissing Star Trek The Motion Picture because "it's a rerun of The Changeling" and Alien because it's "just It! The Terror From Beyond Space" are IMHO MISSING THE POINT!

Having said that, while discussing the sequel to my story with someone last night, I was told of the existence of The Patty Duke Show and thought "oh bloody hell"... And no, it's not going to be *that* much like it, but still...


Rachel
Re: Tuck Amuck! [message #897] Tue, 29 April 2003 23:54 Go to previous message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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LOL!

I was there! I was there!

- Erin
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