Home » Tuck Talk » Future Tuck » Talk about foreshadowing....
Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1095] Tue, 19 August 2003 03:14 Go to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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22:06 30 Sep

I broke the kiss and looked around, because I'd thought I heard someone from school...

Smile
Erin
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1098] Thu, 21 August 2003 05:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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there's a good sized list of those already. this is one of the more obvious. but there have been LOTS of things like this.

and i will NOT mention gina... but there are several other cases.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1103] Fri, 22 August 2003 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
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Doragoon wrote on Thu, 21 August 2003 04:07

there's a good sized list of those already. this is one of the more obvious. but there have been LOTS of things like this.

and i will NOT mention gina... but there are several other cases.


if there ever were a place to post your list of things "like this" this would be the ideal place and give everyone a reason to go hmmmm
Vickie


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1109] Sat, 23 August 2003 19:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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Vickie said:

"If there ever were a place to post your list of things 'like this' this would be the ideal place and give everyone a reason to go hmmmm".

Yeah, I might have missed a few...


Ellen
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1115] Sun, 24 August 2003 15:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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One of the delights of reading Tuck is finding such trails of breadcrumbs crossed with embarrassed sardines. Smile

- Erin
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1120] Sun, 24 August 2003 22:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Ellen Hayes wrote on Sat, 23 August 2003 18:59


"If there ever were a place to post your list of things 'like this' this would be the ideal place and give everyone a reason to go hmmmm".

Yeah, I might have missed a few...


Ellen



EEP!!

i haven't made a list of those in forever. it would take another re-read to pick them all out. but just off the top of my head...

gina (nuff said)
the four guys in the mall when with amy
the peaple at lisa's holoween party
the people at anne's parties
beth, scott, josh, anne, megan, bobby, jessie, sheila, kathy, ryan, andy, dana, eric, nancy, mary, steve, lan
mark is a longshot, but he might show up at a nerd gathering
book being freinds with travis but not knowing val is dating him
john the pizza boy
ellen doesn't know about val but hangs with the pack
val takes the same route every day makeing her easy to follow or for somone to notice and recognize val.
peaple at the gay cafe
the hairdresser
and i could swear there are other people in clubs and malls that looked familiar but val couldn't place from where.
tuck kissed jack in boy mode in public and outside his house


umm.. that's all i can come up with off the top of my head. i'm sure others can think of more. i probably will think of something later. but if anyone else thinks of something POST IT!
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1121] Mon, 25 August 2003 01:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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One that you missed is liable to occur tomorrow night (10/3), and not at the homecoming dance. That's probably enough of a clue to give it away, but I'm holding off on stating it explicitly because (1) if Ellen uses it, it'll happen really soon and (2) it's what happened to Tuck-5 ("Eugene"), the central character (so far) in my parallel-worlds fanfic, still grounded for lack of a plot but not COMPLETELY dead yet...

Eric
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1122] Mon, 25 August 2003 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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just noticed something in my character list...

Derek: guy in locker room; (12:26 5 Nov) (12:24 18 Mar) (09:52 30 Sep)

he seems to be a regular character. i wonder what all he's connected to. i bet there will be something there eventualy.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1123] Mon, 25 August 2003 21:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

One that you missed is liable to occur tomorrow night (10/3), and not at the homecoming dance. That's probably enough of a clue to give it away, but I'm holding off on stating it explicitly because (1) if Ellen uses it, it'll happen really soon and (2) it's what happened to Tuck-5 ("Eugene"), the central character (so far) in my parallel-worlds fanfic, still grounded for lack of a plot but not COMPLETELY dead yet...


i was only listing things that were left in the past, not things in the future.

but as far as things happening soon. i'm pretty sure thursday night is the day they use the blocks of ice... what ever happened to the underwear prank they came up with at the pizza place?

all i have sceduled for the 3rd is a cosmo test, sociology test, the pep rally, and taking shiela for the night becouse of a party at the parker's.

i'm not sure what else you might be thinking of. tuck and travis didn't set another date after thier last one yet, so unless they make plans soon for this weekend there's nothing there.

i don't think jack and tuck planned anything.

i figure it's still about a week until deb starts her period so that probably isn't it.

i'm really wondering what's going to happen when the parents find out tuck isn't taking kathy to homecoming, since she's supposedly tuck's girlfreind.

is the CD gathering at julia's the first weekend of the month or the second. i think it's normaly the first. but i don't see how that would effect anything. it was the third weekend when tuck first went. maybe first and third? sounds too much. i don't know.

i don't know what else i could happen.

anyone else got ideas of what eric is talking about?
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1124] Wed, 27 August 2003 21:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Finally found the QUOTE icon...

Quote:

I'm really wondering what's going to happen when the parents find out tuck isn't taking kathy to homecoming, since she's supposedly tuck's girlfriend.


I think Tuck's parents realize that he's not seeing any girl all that regularly; someone supplied Kathy as a plausible date for the previous night when the parents asked, and Tuck mentioned Jill another night he was going to be going out. But I don't believe Tuck's parents think that he has a serious girlfriend, so his missing an opportunity to attend the homecoming dance in order to take care of Stella shouldn't be that big a deal.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1125] Wed, 27 August 2003 21:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Can anybody think of any characters who have interacted with Tuck (and don't know about Valerie) who are around 30 to 35 years old?

Ellen could create one (e.g., Tuck's sociology teacher) over the next 36 hours of the story, but my 10/3 theory would be more likely if one existed before then. I can't think of any in the plot line at this point.

Or to put it another way, if Ellen had been thinking along the same lines I was, Mr Ortega would have been programming in C rather than Fortran...

Eric
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1126] Thu, 28 August 2003 00:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

Can anybody think of any characters who have interacted with Tuck (and don't know about Valerie) who are around 30 to 35 years old?


ok, i've GOT to be able to do this one, it's right up my alley.

tuck might have a cousin in that age range.
we don't know about dana and her husband, it's conseavable that they are in that age range, but i don't think so.
i'd say the parkers are in that range, but they know val, not tuck
some teacher is possible.. reed, prilchard, ortega, alston, jugenson, vangormer, tayler...
there's always sheila, she is probably in that age range, and doesn't know about val,.... yet
john the hairdresser doesn't know much about val

there's a LOT of options for knowing val but not tuck...

i don't think anyone will find anyone else. i have a list of every person's name ever mentioned, (and the computers). i don't think there's anything i have missed. but it wouldn't be unbelievable for somone to show up who tuck knows and has known for some time but has never been mentioned in the story yet.

ok. that's all. now, WAHT'S YOUR IDEA!! i need you to tell me so i can give you half a dozen reasons why it doesn't work and will never happen.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1129] Thu, 28 August 2003 23:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Ortega's too old; as I noted, he says that he programmed Fortran on a mainframe in college. C on an old Commodore might have at least given him a shot at the right age range, though I think even that's too far back. (C+ on an IBM PC? This isn't my area of expertise.)

What I was looking for is for Val to ring the doorbell to drop off Stella at the end of the party; like last time, the door's opened by whatever party guest is closest to it. Only this time, it's someone like Mr. Ortega -- part of a couple that as it turns out are friends of the Parkers, or a McAllen teacher whose spouse works at the gallery with Beth.

Ortega (or whoever) does a double-take. Val might escape by giving a shy smile and saying, "You must know my brother." The Parkers know that Val has a brother that they've never met, so that statement won't set off any alarm bells. However, Tuck and Val haven't yet been able to convince anyone who has seen them both that they're actually different people.

Even if Val could make that work this time, she probably wouldn't get the chance. Tuck is infinitely resourceful, but he's not cool under unexpected pressure -- I don't think he'd be able to conceal his recognition of Ortega-or-whoever.

The problem, of course, is that anybody who cares at all about the Parkers is going to want to alert them to the fact that the girl taking care of their baby is attending school as a boy. Most likely Ortega either confronts Val publicly, blurts it out to the group at large, takes one of the Parkers aside to tell them, or even phones them after the party guests all go home.

There are lots of ways things can proceed, and only some of the most unlikely, it seems to me, can save Tuck. One is that Tuck, in a private conversation with Ortega, convinces him to talk with Dobson before exposing him, promising to stay away from the Parker kids until that takes place. Unfortunately for Tuck, I don't think he'd be in a position to bargain, or even to talk to Ortega privately.

Another is that Val, placed on the defensive, manages to fast-talk her way through it by explaining that a hereditary hormone imbalance has left her in a physical condition where D&E found it more plausible for her to work with the public as female than male -- and then to demand, with her credibility at stake, that they call Debbie immediately for corroboration. (It has to happen fast, before Beth Parker starts thinking about inconsistencies: Travis, for one.) That makes for a really suspenseful situation -- is Debbie going to stand behind Val, or feed her to the wolves? -- but Val would be so scared of the outcome that I don't know that she'd risk it, even though I think the reader knows Debbie would come through.

The most likely reaction, I think, is that Val hands off the baby, rushes out of the house, gets in her car and drives halfway to the Laniers in New Orleans before trying to put the pieces back together.

(If anyone was wondering, my Tuck-5 brought Stella back to a Parker party on a Friday night in late July -- one that didn't happen on Tuck-1's timeline -- and encountered, without his realizing it, a couple from Mrs Tucker's real estate office who had attended the Tuckers' July 4 celebration. They alerted the Parkers the next day -- the couple had known something was wrong at the time, but it took them a while to place it -- and by Monday Tuck was in jail under suspicion of felony molestation of a child in one's care.)

Eric
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1130] Fri, 29 August 2003 06:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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first thing, i was just throwing out names and i had forgotten about the fortran thing. but fortran is still in use today by a LOT of places, espetialy in the aerospace industry. heck, even cobol is still ing use. the CS majors where all complaining about having to learn it, but most of the jobs companies are hiring for are for programing in cobol simply becouse no one studies it anymore.

now, on to the senario.

i don't think the posibilty of ortega being there is likly. it's a gathering for an art gallery. that makes me think the only people who might be there are freinds of the family, and art people. i don't know if tuck knows very many art people. the best i could come up with is travis's parents. which would be kinda amusing, but i don't think it would get them in trouble.

i'm trying to think of a way that could happen and it's not coming. i don't know of anyone who might cross the line at that point. i mean, it's just as likely for tuck's parents to be there as anyone else. i mean, maybe the gallery wants to set up a website, or put photo's of all their pieces online, or maybe do one of those nifty sytems where a person wears headphones and tthey choose what they want to hear about from a menu. regardless, it's as easy to belive that as anyone else showing up there. maybe a parent brought thier child with them to the party, it probably wouldn't matter since they would probably go to red bluff or a private school.

if anything is going to happen with the party, it's probably going to be related to the fact that val asked ms.parker to remind her. but i don't remember her reminding tuck about it, and even if she has, tuck didn't tell us, so he must not have realised it. if she doesn't remind tuck today, he's not going to have any plan on what to do or where to go. that could mean taking stella home, or to rachel's, or some other place where anything could happen. there's a lot of posability that could happen.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1131] Fri, 29 August 2003 07:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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i'm wondering something and i want to get some other people's opinion on it. (and since the chat room has been down, i'll ask it here)

what is going to happen in dobson's office?

they have just been caught with a catapult and shot ice at classmates. don't schools usualy have a zero tolerance polocy. i could see them suspending all the people involved with that catapult. we know tuck (and probably da boyz) knows how to respond to interegation, but kim will talk, and kelly will talk... and maybe more. there could be a MAJOR problem there. getting suspended from school may get tuck grounded, which as we know is really bad.

is this possible? maybe under nickerson, i don't think dobson will be that mean, but it might be taken out of his hands. if dobson usualy does take lunch outside of school, and he was called back in to address this problem, that could mean that someone thinks that this is very important.

i'm very surprized that more people havn't speculated about this.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1132] Fri, 29 August 2003 08:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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Doragoon wrote on Fri, 29 August 2003 07:14

if dobson usualy does take lunch outside of school, and he was called back in to address this problem, that could mean that someone thinks that this is very important.

i'm very surprized that more people havn't speculated about this.



According to the timestamps, only 3 minutes have elapsed between launching the ice with the catapult and arriving in Dobsons office. So unless he's got a 2nd secret ID as The Flash to go along with Betty, I'll assume he stayed in due to some work that needed to be done.

I think they'll rightly claim self defense and after Tuck and Mike wear Dobson down a bit the gang will get off with a few days of detention. That of course means another Saturday at school for Tuck, most likely the 4th, cleaning up the remains of the Prom. That is if the Prom is indeed to be held this Friday.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1133] Fri, 29 August 2003 09:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dawny  is currently offline Dawny
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Perhaps Sheila will be at the party, when Tuck drops off Stella. Sheila seems like the type that would go to a Art Party. Shelia also probably figures Tuck is holding something back. The following therapy session would be quite intresting after that.

Dawny
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1134] Fri, 29 August 2003 19:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Quote:

...that makes me think the only people who might be there are friends of the family, and art people.


"Friends of the family" was the point, more or less, though the spouse of one of Beth's coworkers at the gallery would work as well. There's no reason why someone in either category couldn't be on the McAllen faculty, especially since there seems to be a lot less than six degrees of separation between folks in Tuck's home town.

Ortega's not a likely choice. What I was trying to say in the original note was that if Ellen had wanted to put Ortega in this spot, he'd be closer to the Parkers' age, if nothing else. It's certainly not impossible for a math teacher to have an interest in the humanities, or to be married to someone who works in an art gallery, but if I were plotting a story I'd want to offer some clue before I sprung that on anyone, and Ellen's better at that sort of thing than I am.

The reason I was using him is that he and Mrs Singley are the only teachers we really know anything about. (She's not the right age any more than Ortega is, of course, though she's more likely to be esthetically inclined. A reaction from her would be interesting -- would she offer a critique of Val's makeup? -- but probably not as effective, from an author's point of view, in creating the tension that the situation merits.)

Again, if Ellen had wanted to do this I think we'd have seen a character introduced (the sociology teacher, for example) that fit better.

(Which brings up the point: what if Miz Montgomery, Nickerson's secretary, ended up as receptionist at the art gallery after quitting McAllen last year? Having her run into Valerie would be interesting.)

Eric
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1135] Fri, 29 August 2003 22:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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i'm impressed by your memory of obscure characters.

yes, those where ideas i thought of, but i didn't think there was a very good possability that they would recognise tuck.

on a more personal note, i doubt there is any real chance of something like this happening. i mean, i can see a few ways that it might happen. but it just seems like a wronge way to do things. i mean, outing tuck at the parkers will also out travis. things would just REALLY go down hill fast. out of tuck's control. that's not a way to get tuck to accept himself. that's a good way to cause a purge. and if tuck purges val from his life, i don't think he'll be back to her any time soon. it will take an act of god like V2 popping into town to make a dent in tuck's sheilds.

any change is going to have to happen on tuck's terms or it wont happen at all. tuck has to be made to think that it was his idea. deb was GREAT at that. no one else has that kinda control on tuck. and i'm not even sure if somone could have that kinda control over tuck anymore, after how much he's changed.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1136] Sat, 30 August 2003 01:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BethR  is currently offline BethR
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Rising back from the ashes of a crashed profile on Tuckerspawn...


And I read all this and in the back of my mind I recall Ellen saying that this is not one of those happy upbeat kinds of stories... and that it may not have a "happy ending". Certainly from what we've seen so far, there's got to be some more angst before anything is resolved. I've got 2 teenagers, now, and "angst" is really for too light a word for the reality of teenagers!

Enjoy!


Beth R
Dallas, TX, USA
http://www.genderweb.org/~bethr
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1142] Wed, 03 September 2003 04:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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just a couple 'Things Ellen Has Said' that i think people have forgotten or never even heard.

Quote:

Q: What about Helen? Is that going to be in the main story line?

EH: Helen? Well, she's Debbie's mom, isn't she? =)

Q: I meant Helen discovering Valerie is Tuck!

EH: It's gonna happen eventually, and John's story will have some influence.


Quote:

Yes, I do have an end in mind. Or one of two, a loooong time from now.


Quote:

Oh, sure, a teenager would actually buy a book about some kind of queer pervert. NOT!


Quote:

Q: Do you see Tuck's Dad ever finding out about Val?

EH: Yes, not anytime soon though.


Quote:

Q: What about his Mom, would she like having another daughter?

EH: No, not really. She had enough problems with Susan.


Quote:

Q: Tuck was apparently born on 4-3-81. Would you care to reveal where?

EH: You're off by a year. And, I'm not sure where he was born.

Q: Which way am I off?

EH: *Grins but doesn't say anything*

<snip>
EH: 4/3/80.


Quote:

Well, Tuck was a short story that grew. Kind of like mildew.


very old quotes. just felt like digging them up for everyone to mull over.

any thought's about this?

sarah's not going to be happy to find out about val?
how old IS tuck? is he really as old as he thinks he is?
Is tuck a medical experament to create a human/fungus hybred?
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1143] Wed, 03 September 2003 07:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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Doragoon wrote on Wed, 03 September 2003 04:51

just a couple 'Things Ellen Has Said' that i think people have forgotten or never even heard.


If I'm not mistaken, most of what you pointed out is from an IRC chat session with Ellen that was hosted by and later posted to Fictionmania. Given that that chat session was held almost 4 years ago, a lot of her responses in it should be looked at through a kind of temporal filter if you will.

Quote:

Q: What about Helen? Is that going to be in the main story line?

EH: Helen? Well, she's Debbie's mom, isn't she? =)

Q: I meant Helen discovering Valerie is Tuck!

EH: It's gonna happen eventually, and John's story will have some influence.


If Tuck-Val and Debbie were still an item romantically, I could see how Helen learning the truth about Val might lead to some problems (which they were at the time of the chat). But if she finds out now, what can she do? Tell them break up and not see each other anymore? They've already taken care of that on their own.

Quote:

Q: Tuck was apparently born on 4-3-81. Would you care to reveal where?

EH: You're off by a year. And, I'm not sure where he was born.

Q: Which way am I off?

EH: *Grins but doesn't say anything*

<snip>
EH: 4/3/80.


Again this statement was posted 4 years ago and I feel she was either 1) Playing with people heads at the time 2) Has decided to change Tucks date of birth or 3) Is playing 'father time' in her own private universe.

As for reasons 1 & 2 I can only say this: With Tuck 87 - Tucked Silly, she has firmly established that it occured in 1997 with the references to the death of Princess Diana. Therefore, if Tuck turned 16 just 5 months earlier, he would have to have been born in '81 and not '80.

As for reason #3, she's done it before. In Tuck 50 - Tucker Up Baby she has two Wednesday, June 25ths effectively giving that week an 8th day.

Quote:

Well, Tuck was a short story that grew. Kind of like mildew.


Many of the best stories start out that way. Some of them would have better off if they remained short stories, but fortunately this is not one of them. And even if it is growing like mildew... at least it doesn't have that mildew stench.

Quote:

very old quotes. just felt like digging them up for everyone to mull over.

any thought's about this?

sarah's not going to be happy to find out about val?
how old IS tuck? is he really as old as he thinks he is?
Is tuck a medical experament to create a human/fungus hybred?



I think Sarah and Bill will both be shocked when they finally learn about Valerie. It will probably be hard for them at first, and they may well end up going for more family sessions with Shiela or to another therapist all together to help them cope.

I think Tuck is 16 and she just changed her mind on the date after that chat session. Besides, Susan would have been about 3 years at the time of Tucks birth. If they tried to lie about it I think she would have told him the truth by now. Especially after how they've gotten closer since April.

As for Tuck being a medical experiment... Well I think Tuck and Mike are part of the first genetic manipulation experiments the Vorlons conducted on humans to create telepaths. It could be considered a failure since they only apear to be touch telepaths, and other with each other. The whole fungus/intersex thing was something the Shadows added to try to ruin the Vorlons experiments. Very Happy
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1144] Wed, 03 September 2003 07:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ellen Hayes  is currently offline Ellen Hayes
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About Tucker's Birthyday...

I Made A Mistake

in that e-chat. Eugene Wallace Tucker WAS Born on 3 April, 1981. Place was somewhere in New York State (undefined at this time).

And, BTW, while the _story_ grew like a fungus, Tucker (and company) is more like a rodent, or a smart cat... always where you don't want him to be, and able to get into the most surprising spaces. No fungal component at all. =)


Ellen


Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1145] Wed, 03 September 2003 22:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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On the whole, writing a story about rodents would be better than writing one on fungus. Smile

- Erin
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1146] Mon, 08 September 2003 02:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Quote:

Outing Tuck at the Parkers' will also out Travis. Things would just REALLY go down hill fast, out of Tuck's control. That's not a way to get Tuck to accept himself.


Trouble is, as this thread is pointing out, Ellen definitely seems to be setting things up for Tuck to get outed soon, one way or another. And I think it's safe to say that it's not going to happen under his control; he's clearly not ready to do anything deliberately, or even to acquiesce in something happening through his refusal to act. Best he'll be able to do is work out some method of damage control, and I still think he's likely to panic and head for New Orleans before that'll happen.

(Which isn't necessarily a bad idea as a way to get Tuck to accept himself. That'd be an interesting turn, actually: the Laniers have been established as supremely sympathetic, to the point where Tuck agreed to make that his future escape route, but how comfortable is a retired Marine drill sergeant going to be with Tuck's feminine side?)

Quote:

Sheila(...)probably figures Tuck is holding something back. The following therapy session would be quite interesting after that.


Actually, if Tuck gets desperate enough -- which isn't at all unlikely -- he may decide (or Mike or Kim may convince him) that his only hope of avoiding testosterone shots while concealing his situation from his parents is to tell Sheila everything and have her intercede. Trouble there is that she put limits on her confidentiality -- she won't conceal something that's illegal, or a hazard to Tuck's health -- and it's very likely that Tuck doesn't trust Sheila not to put Val's activities into one or the other of those two exceptions.

(But so far Tuck isn't nearly that determined about avoiding the shots; he seemed prepared to compromise on taking them half as often as directed.)

Eric
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1147] Mon, 08 September 2003 05:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doragoon  is currently offline Doragoon
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Quote:

Actually, if Tuck gets desperate enough -- which isn't at all unlikely -- he may decide (or Mike or Kim may convince him) that his only hope of avoiding testosterone shots while concealing his situation from his parents is to tell Sheila everything and have her intercede. Trouble there is that she put limits on her confidentiality -- she won't conceal something that's illegal, or a hazard to Tuck's health -- and it's very likely that Tuck doesn't trust Sheila not to put Val's activities into one or the other of those two exceptions.


i think a big part of tuck's next meeting with sheila will consern why tuck is against having the testosterone shots. and what tuck will say... probably that he's no more afraid of the alergy shots than the testosterone shots. he's not getting out of the alergy shots, but he's still been trying to get out of the testosterone shots. and thats what he belives. he also doesn't like the idea of taking someting that might make him agressive and an asshole. to everyone else, it seems like that's not a good reason. and shiela is going to help convince him of that. and he's already accepted his fate. he knows there's no good reason so he's going to go through with it. unless shiela finds out about val and stops him. then it would be a battle of, sheila saying that that means something, like all the pack has been saying. and tuck resisting and saying that genetics don't deturmin behavior or gender or whatever he's been saying. but the end result of that would be at the very least, sheila gets the testosterone shots halted. either that of she'll say just to try them for a while and see how they make him feel. the problem with that is, testoserone can make people feel better. being deficiant often causes depression, and they could feel that testosterone will make him happier, and sadly, it might. it's a biochemical thing. but, since testosterone and estrogen don't take up the same receptor sites, they will probably prescribe tuck an estrogen blocker, that is, if the overy he has is functioning, which, the physical changes seem to tell us it is. this all is a big deal, and everyone is really taking it for granted that this is the right thing to do, tuck only resists for weak reasons. no one has any reason NOT to do this. sheila needs to find out. or the pack need to vote to break confidence and tell tuck's parents about what's happened. tuck would feel betrayed, wouldn't talk to them for a very long time. would mike agree with the pack? would he try to get tuck to forgive them? tuck might abandon even mike then. hole himself up in his room... maybe...

tuck's distanceing himself from his medical problems. and he's distanceing himself from the people who want to talk to him about the medical problem.

what would tuck do if his parents, sheila... or dana... what is somone offeres the idea of tuck becomeing a girl?
we all would like to say that tuck would agree to that. but tuck would think it's proposterous. that he's a guy, he's always been one. he's been trying to figure out what makes somone one or the other, and hasn't gotten an answer that satisfies him. how do you convince somone that they are a girl?
tuck seems to have had no desire to be one, and the dressing doesn't really count. he still thinks that it doens't matter, though he's unwilling to tell other people who he knows will think that it does mean something. that they arn't just clothes.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1149] Mon, 08 September 2003 20:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iWindoze  is currently offline iWindoze
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Eric wrote on Thu, 28 August 2003 22:21

What I was looking for is for Val to ring the doorbell to drop off Stella at the end of the party; like last time, the door's opened by whatever party guest is closest to it. Only this time, it's someone like Mr. Ortega -- part of a couple that as it turns out are friends of the Parkers, or a McAllen teacher whose spouse works at the gallery with Beth.


Here's a thought, IIRC the hairdresser mentions or is mentioned to have a shared aquantice with the Parkers either by knowing them himself or by having a relative know them. (His mother perhaps? I can't remember) so a perhaps more likely senario is to have HIM answer the door, ect, ect.


Eric also wrote on Thu, 28 August 2003 22:21

Ortega (or whoever) does a double-take. Val might escape by giving a shy smile and saying, "You must know my brother." The Parkers know that Val has a brother that they've never met, so that statement won't set off any alarm bells. However, Tuck and Val haven't yet been able to convince anyone who has seen them both that they're actually different people.


If it's the hairdresser, then all bets are off, wouldn't you say? I agree with you tho' Tuck's a resourceful guy, but I don't think she'll be able to talk her way out of this one!!

^_~
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1150] Mon, 08 September 2003 20:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Doragoon asked on Fri, 29 August 2003 06:14

don't schools usualy have a zero tolerance polocy. i could see them suspending all the people involved with that catapult. we know tuck (and probably da boyz) knows how to respond to interegation, but kim will talk, and kelly will talk... and maybe more. there could be a MAJOR problem there. getting suspended from school may get tuck grounded, which as we know is really bad.


I may be wrong but I think that Tuck's time line hasn't intersected with the whole columbine thing yet..so the Zero tolerance thing hasn't quite developed the teeth it did after that whole waste* of human life ocurred.


* The waste being of course those two geeks who broke under the abuse of the various jocks and preps, not the abusive SOBs who got shot up.



Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1151] Mon, 08 September 2003 20:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Quote:

...it would be a battle of, Sheila saying that that means something, like all the pack has been saying, and Tuck resisting and saying that genetics don't determine behavior or gender or whatever he's been saying...


Thing is, Ellen supported Tuck's position on that point a chapter or two back. Right after Tuck makes his argument that his genetic condition isn't the source of his skill as a babysitter, she has Tuck describe how inept Sabrina, the most traditionally feminine member of the Pack, is at it. Conceding (as Tuck hasn't) that the hormones may be one reason for Tuck's original determination to take the job, it's clearly not the trump card the Pack thinks it is.

Quote:

Sheila needs to find out, or the Pack need to vote to break confidence and tell Tuck's parents about what's happened.


Again, it seems almost certain, based on the foreshadowing Erin mentioned, that all that is beside the point: Tuck's about to be outed anyway, very likely in one of the ways described here.

(One more scenario that nobody's mentioned yet: the Boyz' luck runs out with their "social work" tonight, the police appear on the scene, everybody's taken down to the county jail for processing, and guess which sheriff's deputy is on duty there. Helen finds the need to ask Debbie some pointed questions, and things start proceeding downhill.)

The question is what Tuck's going to do about it -- especially since it's likely to happen under circumstances where he's not going to have the time or presence of mind to make even what he'd consider an optimal decision.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1153] Mon, 08 September 2003 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Quote:

...Tuck's time line hasn't intersected with the whole Columbine thing yet...


You're correct on that, FWIW. Another couple of years to go...
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1154] Mon, 08 September 2003 23:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maltor  is currently offline maltor
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iWindoze wrote on Mon, 08 September 2003 20:07

Here's a thought, IIRC the hairdresser mentions or is mentioned to have a shared aquantice with the Parkers either by knowing them himself or by having a relative know them. (His mother perhaps? I can't remember) so a perhaps more likely senario is to have HIM answer the door, ect, ect.


Shortly after the hairdresser is introduced, Debbie mentions that he's an old friend of her Mom, Helen. The only acquaintance the Parkers have in common with Val that we know of to date, (aside from various pack members that have worked for them in the past), are Travis's parents.
PAIS? [message #1155] Tue, 09 September 2003 02:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Another thought, along the lines of Ellen's love for layered complication and her talk about how rare Tuck's condition is: Tuck may have, in addition to XXY polychromosomy, and mosaicism, Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome... testosterone injections may not do him much "good."
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1156] Tue, 09 September 2003 03:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachel.greenham  is currently offline rachel.greenham
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iWindoze wrote on Tue, 09 September 2003 01:16


I may be wrong but I think that Tuck's time line hasn't intersected with the whole columbine thing yet..so the Zero tolerance thing hasn't quite developed the teeth it did after that whole waste* of human life ocurred.



No, you're right. Columbine hasn't happened yet. (Have already checked this. Rolling Eyes )


Rachel
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1157] Wed, 17 September 2003 18:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iWindoze  is currently offline iWindoze
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Well my point is that Public schools weren't as draconian as they are now until sometime after Columbine and that whole year or two before it with its multiple assults on public shools by disaffected (or perhaps just dised?) teenagers with guns. Sure most of the zero tolerance policies were in place, thanks to the various drug laws (drugs=violence) but the schools didn't strat going crazy with them until later..

Re: PAIS? [message #1167] Thu, 18 September 2003 02:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Quote:

Another thought, along the lines of Ellen's love for layered complication and her talk about how rare Tuck's condition is: Tuck may have, in addition to XXY polychromosomy, and mosaicism, Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome... testosterone injections may not do him much "good."


It seems to me that would be counterproductive to the plot here.

If the essence of a story is that its protagonist has a decision to make, we're looking at two alternatives here. In one, Tuck has options and is forced to overcome his reluctance to choose and to decide how he wants to live the rest of his life. In the other, Tuck can only accept or reject what he's become -- more of a reflective decision than an active one.

PAIS forces the story in the second direction. That doesn't strike me as a good idea.

Eric
Choices [message #1168] Thu, 18 September 2003 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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The task of accepting or rejecting what one has become is the essence of human tragedy. I disagree that PAIS would be detrimental to the drama of Tuck's situation. Tuck would still have choices to make: accept being female and have changes made in lifestyle and body to fit that, accept living as female but reject any unnecessary surgical intervention, choose to live as male even with what is essentially a female body, choose to have surgery to remove as much female parts as possible, choose to postpone all decisions until a crisis is reached, choose to make the ultimate exit from an intolerable situation.

These are essentially the same choices that could be made without the PAIS escept that living as a male would be superficially more doable without that complication. But Tuck's situation would be essentially unchanged as far as range of choices go. The results of such choices would be slightly different but the choices themselves would still exist.

My opinion, of course. Smile

But while it's fun to try to second guess Ellen it is generally best to expect to be surprised. Smile

- Erin
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1191] Sat, 27 September 2003 19:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maynard  is currently offline Maynard
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Eric wrote on September 8:

Trouble is, as this thread is pointing out, Ellen definitely
seems to be setting things up for Tuck to get outed soon, one
way or another. And I think it's safe to say that it's not
going to happen under his control; he's clearly not ready to do
anything deliberately, or even to acquiesce in something happen-
ing through his refusal to act. Best he'll be able to do is
work out some method of damage control, and I still think he's
likely to panic and head for New Orleans before that'll happen.


Very good Eric, as the above quote shows that you called Tuck being "outed" and that sure happen in 100. The question now is how much "damage control" needs to be done? Or will the parental discovery mean an end to Val?
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1198] Sun, 28 September 2003 17:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iWindoze  is currently offline iWindoze
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Anyone else here think it might have been the baboon girl
that Brian was dating a while back that she heard, and not
neccessarily someone from school?

Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1202] Mon, 29 September 2003 03:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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iWindoze wrote on Sun, 28 September 2003 14:35

Anyone else here think it might have been the baboon girl
that Brian was dating a while back that she heard, and not
neccessarily someone from school?



I don't understand. Val said it was somebody from school, someone specific -- "someone I didnít want to run into while I was having a nice evening either." (Probably Debbie, but it could be any of the jocks/cheerleaders whose voice would be recognizable to her.) Can't see a need to look for less likely candidates.

Anyway, getting spotted by Jenny Wiley the lemur-girl wouldn't set off any alarms: she'd simply mistake Val for Susan, and if she talked to Brian at school after that and he told her Susan wasn't in town, she'd likely conclude that it was all a mistake, or that Susan had come back without telling Brian.

Eric
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1203] Mon, 29 September 2003 04:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Anybody remember? Is Susan's coloring similar enough to Val's that they could be mistaken for one another. Tuck's cousin, Amy, has similar coloring but does Susan?
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1206] Mon, 29 September 2003 11:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cate
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Is Tuck's coloring similar to Susan's? Methink's I bemembers a half-asleep Tuck answering the front door; then slamming it in the face of Susan's date (who has just mistaken Tuck for her sister). That sound's similar enough for me.

Cate
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1209] Mon, 29 September 2003 18:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Oh, yeah. Smile I'd forgotten that. Yup, Tuck is turning into Susan! LOL! That must really annoy both of them.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1212] Mon, 29 September 2003 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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(deleted - Cate said it first.)

[Updated on: Tue, 30 September 2003 04:47]

Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1213] Mon, 29 September 2003 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Mon, 29 September 2003 17:48

Oh, yeah. Smile I'd forgotten that. Yup, Tuck is turning into Susan! LOL! That must really annoy both of them.


What was once an annoyment may soon be a warm feeling now that the "jig is up" and Valarie is now known to Sarah and soon the confession of Susan as to knowing all about Valarie almost since the episode. The tumblers on the dial are going click click click as each thing falls into place. Now as the door is opened what will we find?


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1217] Mon, 29 September 2003 22:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I don't think you are or have an older sister. Very Happy Sure, there's plenty of pleasure and joy possible between siblings but there's a lot of aggravation too. Razz

- Erin
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1221] Tue, 30 September 2003 21:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicki  is currently offline Vicki
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Mon, 29 September 2003 21:27

I don't think you are or have an older sister. Very Happy Sure, there's plenty of pleasure and joy possible between siblings but there's a lot of aggravation too. Razz

- Erin


I have an older sister and a younger one. Yes we have had dis-harmony at times but we are very very good friends. We never stay mad at each other for long.
Susan and Valarie are also close and here is what could possibly happen (just speculation of course):

  1. Sarah possibly calling and/or confronting Susan face to face to see if she has anything to say about her sibling
  2. Sarah then after hearing Susan defending Tu-Val and denying/ covering up things to be told that Valarie told her everything puting her in warm water along with her new sister. . the only one that will come out smelling of roses in the Tu/Val-Gate is Brian and the cat


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1234] Wed, 01 October 2003 08:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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There is also the possibility that Susan will decide to try to 'help' Tuck by revealing some things she'd agreed not to and end up being in trouble with both Sarah and Tuck.

...what a tangled web we weave... =)


Janet

All that glitters is not Iron Pyrite
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1236] Wed, 01 October 2003 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I see a possibility for Janets suggestion, of Susan volunteering some information. But I suspect that she will not be involved for awhile. Everybody will be centering on Tuck and since Susan is not present, she will be not thought of. The focus will be on the "problem" right in front of everybody. And it will be so immediate that most will not think beyond home.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1237] Wed, 01 October 2003 15:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I actually think there's a fairly good chance of Susan getting called into the discussion quite early; at Tuck's instigation, not Sarah's. Especially if Travis comes into the conversation. Tuck would quite happily use Susan as at least a small diversion at this point. Tuck would probably view Susan getting yelled at over the phone late Friday/ early Saturday as not only getting some benefit from Susan's insistance on meeting Travis, but justified payback for having pushed the issue in the first place. Not only that, but Susan is the only person who knows about Valerie that I can see Sarah taking seriously, at least at first. (Bill would probably listen to Mike, as well; but who knows if Bill's going to hear about this right away.)
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1239] Thu, 02 October 2003 00:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erin Halfelven  is currently offline Erin Halfelven
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Let's not forget Amy. Smile
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1243] Thu, 02 October 2003 19:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Erin Halfelven wrote on Wed, 01 October 2003 23:13

Let's not forget Amy. Smile


For the sake of discussion, who might Valarie bring into the discussion do you think and why ?

I could see a phone conversation being overheard or a slip of the tounge. . to start something off


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1244] Thu, 02 October 2003 23:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Vickie wrote on Thu, 02 October 2003 16:23



For the sake of discussion, who might Valarie bring into the discussion do you think and why ?




The first question, is Father Tucker going to be brought in to the discussion tonight? That's going to set the tone for a lot things. If Dad doesn't know, Tuck is more likely to think in terms of containment, and that would make Tuck less likely to bring other people into the discussion.

Does anybody recall a quote where Tuck thinks or talks about how the parents would react? I'm pretty sure something has come up about how their reactions would differ, but I don't have the first clue where it was or how the response would vary.

I'm going to assume Dad knows almost immediately for purposes of this discussion, however. As I said above, I think the most likely candidate for Tuck to deliberately bring in would be Susan. She is perhaps the only person both sides could really trust as working for what's best for everybody, as least as she sees it. I don't see Amy getting called quickly. I think the parents would assume she was taking Tuck's side, while Tuck would probably figure the same thing; but not trust her to keep her mouth shut about details that would unnessesarly trouble the parents at this point.

I think there is a fair chance of Mike and Kim, and possibly whoever they are with, accidently getting into the fray. Tuck was supposed to call them after he got rid of Stella. I can see them showing up at the house around 11:30 to see why Tuck hasn't called yet, only to have Valerie answer the door with the parents lurking in the background. (Kim would then miss the signifigance of that until she heard Mike silently swearing beside her.) Mike would probably offer to get involved the instant he hears about it, however that happens, but would not push himself into it uninvited.

The only other person I could see being called in, at least early on, might be Sabrina. Bill's been tutoring her for a while now, and the parents might be more willing to listen to her than a random member of the pack.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1245] Fri, 03 October 2003 17:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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It is my opinion that in the immediate future, meaning the rest of the evening of following Sarah's discovery, there will be a long conversation between Tuck and Sarah. I do not see Tuck returning home as Val. I really think that Sarah wants the truth out of her son. And I do not think that embarassing him or humilitating him would be something that she wants to do. The Tuckers do not expose themselves to the public when they can keep is contained within the family.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1246] Fri, 03 October 2003 17:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maynard  is currently offline Maynard
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Other Eric, this does not really answer your question but it is one expression:

Doragoon wrote <<there's his sister, susan. she is totaly convinced that thier parents will flip out if they found out about val. i don't think the being gay thing would be as big of a deal, in fact i REALLY think they already strongly suspect that>>

I sort of remember the episode but not the number.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1248] Fri, 03 October 2003 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Maynard wrote on Fri, 03 October 2003 16:46

It is my opinion that in the immediate future, meaning the rest of the evening of following Sarah's discovery, there will be a long conversation between Tuck and Sarah. I do not see Tuck returning home as Val. I really think that Sarah wants the truth out of her son. And I do not think that embarassing him or humilitating him would be something that she wants to do. The Tuckers do not expose themselves to the public when they can keep is contained within the family.


I agree that Sarah will want the truth and the full truth out of her "son" but do you think she will not see how at ease Valarie is or will be once the shock of getting caught wears off and the real talking begins after the interigation. I do not think it will be so much humilation but fear of final disclosure and Sarah already knows so it will be a matter of a little discomfort in confronting her father and brother. I am sure Sarah will reassure Valarie that no physical harm will come to her. Now showing up dressed or not will be moot somewhat but in order for tuck to change back to boy mode she will have to either go to Rachels to change or back to her house as Valarie and change upon returning home. And Valarie is already in public at the mall so the next thought is who from her school saw the confrontation and was able to put two and two together ?


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1251] Sat, 04 October 2003 04:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric  is currently offline Eric
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Quote:

who from her school saw the confrontation and was able to put two and two together ?


Probably nobody. The homecoming dance was tonight.
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1256] Sat, 04 October 2003 14:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Eric wrote on Sat, 04 October 2003 03:17

Probably nobody. The homecoming dance was tonight.


True maybe nobody, but then again with a bit of yelling and the mall police making an appearance do you think it would warrant any undue attention ? With people rusing around to pick up last minute items possibly. . . naaaaaa I am sure they were quite unnoticed Confused


Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1260] Sat, 04 October 2003 16:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike the Younger  is currently offline Mike the Younger
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Let's shift the POV to the rent a cop

Cool There he is hanging out <rmmhrmm> doing his job when...

Surprised He encounters 2 physically mature human females conducting a vociferous exchange of opinion in front of a baby...

Shocked Stepping in to defuse the argument he is attacked!

Rolling Eyes Looking through my copy of the rent a cop manual I see the book says calling 911 in this situation might be a GOOD IDEA

Since the Saga is taking place deep in the heart of the US Midwest, we can reasonably expect the "local constabulary" to arrive just as the Tuckers are leaving Westcrest Mall with Stella Parker. Any bets on which Deputy takes the call???



Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1261] Sat, 04 October 2003 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Mike the Younger wrote on Sat, 04 October 2003 15:40

Let's shift the POV to the rent a cop

Cool There he is hanging out <rmmhrmm> doing his job when...

Surprised He encounters 2 physically mature human females conducting a vociferous exchange of opinion in front of a baby...

Shocked Stepping in to defuse the argument he is attacked!

Rolling Eyes Looking through my copy of the rent a cop manual I see the book says calling 911 in this situation might be a GOOD IDEA

Since the Saga is taking place deep in the heart of the US Midwest, we can reasonably expect the "local constabulary" to arrive just as the Tuckers are leaving Westcrest Mall with Stella Parker. Any bets on which Deputy takes the call???

LOLOLOLOL absolutely noooooooo idea Shocked Laughing Very Happy




Doubt is a thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won --Shakespeare" --

-Vicki
Re: Talk about foreshadowing.... [message #1951] Tue, 08 June 2004 05:34 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
OtherEric  is currently offline OtherEric
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Originally this was brought up in the context of episode 100, but...
Mike the Younger wrote on Sat, 04 October 2003 13:40

Since the Saga is taking place deep in the heart of the US Midwest, we can reasonably expect the "local constabulary" to arrive just as the Tuckers are leaving Westcrest Mall with Stella Parker. Any bets on which Deputy takes the call???

Let's update that to which deputy follows up on the assault and subsequent Traumaflight at a local high school.
Anybody want to give odds on Helen already knowing about Tuck/Valerie? Going back to June, she would have wanted to know why Debbie was so upset after the con. Breaking up with a boyfriend who was in another state at the time as well as getting into an enormous fight with one of her best friends would require some creative explaining, espically if you needed to do it extemporaneously while extremely upset. And cops are notoriously good at detecting bullshit. (One possible story would be that she somehow found out Tuck and Val were seeing one another behind her back, but I don't know if Debbie could pull that lie off while upset, if it even occurs to her.)
This probably won't wind up coming up- it's just something I thought of while fighting insomnia while re-reading the saga, and figured somebody else might find an interesting point of speculation. If I figure out in the morning it's just the lack of sleep talking, I apologize in advance.
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